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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1101 - 2013-05-20 19:33:15 UTC
n00b Paralex wrote:
So very disappointed with the navy mega. Give it another mid slot damn it. Another mid slot would be multitudes more useful than a utility high slot.


I agree

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1102 - 2013-05-20 19:56:13 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Deerin wrote:

Raven is the vanilla shield missile ship, Phoon is the new vanilla armor missile ship. They are different by nature.
Same goes with CNR and FPhoon.

Shield tankers will use the shield ships while armor tankers will use armor ships.


Wait till odysee, and you will see plenty of shield-tanked TFI's, obliterating any other missile plattform just because of it's pure damage with missiles, drones and a pair of guns..

in other words: your post is just a piece of crap..


Because on paper EFT DPS is all that matters right? You didn't even read my post and proposed fphoon change did you?


I have /absolute/ faith in the phoon I intend to roll in having minimal/zero issues getting the damage off paper and into space. And the best bit? It does SO MUCH damage I could lose a shedload and STILL tear it up.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1103 - 2013-05-20 20:05:36 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Deerin wrote:

Raven is the vanilla shield missile ship, Phoon is the new vanilla armor missile ship. They are different by nature.
Same goes with CNR and FPhoon.

Shield tankers will use the shield ships while armor tankers will use armor ships.


Wait till odysee, and you will see plenty of shield-tanked TFI's, obliterating any other missile plattform just because of it's pure damage with missiles, drones and a pair of guns..

in other words: your post is just a piece of crap..


Because on paper EFT DPS is all that matters right? You didn't even read my post and proposed fphoon change did you?


I have /absolute/ faith in the phoon I intend to roll in having minimal/zero issues getting the damage off paper and into space. And the best bit? It does SO MUCH damage I could lose a shedload and STILL tear it up.


:D

that's why I bought a fleet phoon as soon as I saw the BS rebalance..
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1104 - 2013-05-20 20:28:32 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Deerin wrote:

Raven is the vanilla shield missile ship, Phoon is the new vanilla armor missile ship. They are different by nature.
Same goes with CNR and FPhoon.

Shield tankers will use the shield ships while armor tankers will use armor ships.


Wait till odysee, and you will see plenty of shield-tanked TFI's, obliterating any other missile plattform just because of it's pure damage with missiles, drones and a pair of guns..

in other words: your post is just a piece of crap..


Because on paper EFT DPS is all that matters right? You didn't even read my post and proposed fphoon change did you?


I have /absolute/ faith in the phoon I intend to roll in having minimal/zero issues getting the damage off paper and into space. And the best bit? It does SO MUCH damage I could lose a shedload and STILL tear it up.


...will it be shield tanked? Because that was what this discussion was about. The claim was "Wait till odysee, and you will see plenty of shield tanked TFI's, obliterating any other missile platform"
Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#1105 - 2013-05-20 20:36:00 UTC
A question: What will happen to the LP-costs of the battleship BPC, which are currently quite different. (i.e. Neddon 150k LP, Napoc 250k LP in FW Store)?
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1106 - 2013-05-20 20:39:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Deerin wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Deerin wrote:

Raven is the vanilla shield missile ship, Phoon is the new vanilla armor missile ship. They are different by nature.
Same goes with CNR and FPhoon.

Shield tankers will use the shield ships while armor tankers will use armor ships.


Wait till odysee, and you will see plenty of shield-tanked TFI's, obliterating any other missile plattform just because of it's pure damage with missiles, drones and a pair of guns..

in other words: your post is just a piece of crap..


Because on paper EFT DPS is all that matters right? You didn't even read my post and proposed fphoon change did you?


I have /absolute/ faith in the phoon I intend to roll in having minimal/zero issues getting the damage off paper and into space. And the best bit? It does SO MUCH damage I could lose a shedload and STILL tear it up.


...will it be shield tanked? Because that was what this discussion was about. The claim was "Wait till odysee, and you will see plenty of shield tanked TFI's, obliterating any other missile platform"


I would like to point this out, notice how everyone is giddy over the Phoon changes and yet are unhappy the CNR.

There has been no complain over how the Poon fleet issue will perform. Everyone will be hauling @ss to skill for it.

Even the regular Poon has one up on the regular raven. If you went to the caldari thread everyone was hating the raven ans scorp change in comparison.

On minnie forums, some were not sure about it going to missiles but after the numbers popped up they were fine with it.
Trolly McForumalt
Doomheim
#1107 - 2013-05-20 21:12:12 UTC
Regarding the CNR:

How about changing the range bonus to a 5% per level damage bonus? With 7 launchers this would result in 8.75 effective turrets. Not as powerful as the rof bonus but it would add some differentiation with the other ships in terms of alpha. Also: none of that kinetic only bonus malarky either. Also also: IMO the fleet Typhoon is going to need to be altered to maintain some semblance of balance (note I didn't say nerfed).
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1108 - 2013-05-20 21:16:16 UTC
Can people please stop talking about CNR's velocity bonus like it's only there to add range? If that bonus was extra flight time, it would be crap, but it's higher velocity, therefore it's awesome. Much, much more awesome than most people here seem to realize.
drake duka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1109 - 2013-05-20 21:24:56 UTC
Tempest fleet issue was the worst navy BS, but nothing changes for some reason.. If TE's get a nerf it will be ridiculously bad, I know it's supposed to be "versatile" but that counts for nothing in eve unless you can refit without a station/carrier. What role does the fleet pest fill that wouldn't be done much better by some other bs?

The only use I can think of would be in very small gangs where the utility of double neuts and an extra mid are helpful, but even then it doesn't make up for the pitiful dps. Honestly I don't think 7 guns would be THAT op given the low dps of AC's and the fact that TE's are getting a falloff nerf. 7 guns might be drastic, but wasting 2 bonuses on 6 weak guns really cripples it. Cruise missiles will nearly match AC dps (also furies hit 100+)! That is EFT dps, not even considering pest has to fight in deep falloff.

At least the navy phoon will be good.
drake duka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1110 - 2013-05-20 21:32:55 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Now back to my regularly scheduled program...


CNR change proposal... go back to 7 launchers and 5% ROF.

Lose the velocity bonus and add the explosion radius in place of it.

Keep the other changes intended..


Input folks....

Would be kind of overpowered but you are also underestimating the usefulness of velocity in cruises. I don't think any other ship gets an explosion radius bonus, it's much more useful than velocity.. This alone is a huge buff considering the cruise changes AND the fact that it gets another mid..

Plz tell me when you'd rather have a fleet pest ;). You should be thankful.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#1111 - 2013-05-20 21:40:44 UTC
drake duka wrote:
Tempest fleet issue was the worst navy BS, but nothing changes for some reason.. If TE's get a nerf it will be ridiculously bad, I know it's supposed to be "versatile" but that counts for nothing in eve unless you can refit without a station/carrier. What role does the fleet pest fill that wouldn't be done much better by some other bs?

The only use I can think of would be in very small gangs where the utility of double neuts and an extra mid are helpful, but even then it doesn't make up for the pitiful dps. Honestly I don't think 7 guns would be THAT op given the low dps of AC's and the fact that TE's are getting a falloff nerf. 7 guns might be drastic, but wasting 2 bonuses on 6 weak guns really cripples it. Cruise missiles will nearly match AC dps (also furies hit 100+)! That is EFT dps, not even considering pest has to fight in deep falloff.

At least the navy phoon will be good.


Yeah but i feel this is done case nothing will get changed it is rolling as is and talk about pest was or rather is few years old ...

CCP didn't do nothing then to buff pest and it become 3x time more expensive garbage over maelstrom and now it will become moped up by Typhoon too.

You gotta give em credit for consistency of not recognizing fail then and keep going the same way now.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
drake duka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1112 - 2013-05-20 22:10:22 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
drake duka wrote:
Tempest fleet issue was the worst navy BS, but nothing changes for some reason.. If TE's get a nerf it will be ridiculously bad, I know it's supposed to be "versatile" but that counts for nothing in eve unless you can refit without a station/carrier. What role does the fleet pest fill that wouldn't be done much better by some other bs?

The only use I can think of would be in very small gangs where the utility of double neuts and an extra mid are helpful, but even then it doesn't make up for the pitiful dps. Honestly I don't think 7 guns would be THAT op given the low dps of AC's and the fact that TE's are getting a falloff nerf. 7 guns might be drastic, but wasting 2 bonuses on 6 weak guns really cripples it. Cruise missiles will nearly match AC dps (also furies hit 100+)! That is EFT dps, not even considering pest has to fight in deep falloff.

At least the navy phoon will be good.


Yeah but i feel this is done case nothing will get changed it is rolling as is and talk about pest was or rather is few years old ...

CCP didn't do nothing then to buff pest and it become 3x time more expensive garbage over maelstrom and now it will become moped up by Typhoon too.

You gotta give em credit for consistency of not recognizing fail then and keep going the same way now.

It seems like a good ship in theory but maybe they don't eft warrior or consider their practical use in gangs/fleets?
9 effective turrets with 2 utility highs and 5 meds to play with sounds like a great ship, but it doesn't have nearly enough speed/agility to compensate for the battlecruiser dps at range (remember te's getting nerfed :s).
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1113 - 2013-05-21 00:22:51 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:

that's why I bought a fleet phoon as soon as I saw the BS rebalance..

I wish I'd bought more, and not for speculative purposes - I intend to fly them whenever I can justify bringing a BS to the party, and thus I expect to lose quite a number.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1114 - 2013-05-21 00:28:02 UTC
drake duka wrote:

It seems like a good ship in theory but maybe they don't eft warrior or consider their practical use in gangs/fleets?
9 effective turrets with 2 utility highs and 5 meds to play with sounds like a great ship, but it doesn't have nearly enough speed/agility to compensate for the battlecruiser dps at range (remember te's getting nerfed :s).

The TE nerf hits the T3 BCs as well, you know.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1115 - 2013-05-21 03:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Trolly McForumalt wrote:
Regarding the CNR:

How about changing the range bonus to a 5% per level damage bonus? With 7 launchers this would result in 8.75 effective turrets. Not as powerful as the rof bonus but it would add some differentiation with the other ships in terms of alpha. Also: none of that kinetic only bonus malarky either. Also also: IMO the fleet Typhoon is going to need to be altered to maintain some semblance of balance (note I didn't say nerfed).


I could go for that, more alpha and more dps over the standard raven is better.

Edit- the fleet Phoon could use a nerf.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1116 - 2013-05-21 03:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Can people please stop talking about CNR's velocity bonus like it's only there to add range? If that bonus was extra flight time, it would be crap, but it's higher velocity, therefore it's awesome. Much, much more awesome than most people here seem to realize.


That velocity bonus is the reason why they nerfed the damage to the CNR and pigeon holed it into a cruise boat because of the CM buff.

That velocity bonus to the Raven does no good after 150km because probers will have a warp in for the enemy fleet and you become a shiny kill mail. Without the bonus the ship still can hit over 150 out but once agin also useless because the travel time of missiles. Having a velocity bonus to a ship that is not going to snipe because missiles suck for sniping.

I know that may be a hard concept for you to understand. Do try !

Oh sure its fine for Pve but not everyone is a care bear. With the RoF nerf also came a nerf to torp DPS as well.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1117 - 2013-05-21 04:07:28 UTC
drake duka wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Now back to my regularly scheduled program...


CNR change proposal... go back to 7 launchers and 5% ROF.

Lose the velocity bonus and add the explosion radius in place of it.

Keep the other changes intended..


Input folks....

Would be kind of overpowered but you are also underestimating the usefulness of velocity in cruises. I don't think any other ship gets an explosion radius bonus, it's much more useful than velocity.. This alone is a huge buff considering the cruise changes AND the fact that it gets another mid..

Plz tell me when you'd rather have a fleet pest ;). You should be thankful.


Thankful that the one true caldari powerhouse damage battleship just got nerfed in dps because of a cruise buff?
Thankful that the Minmatar counter part is better using the caldari weapon system and puts down more dps in general, and then gets a big fat drone bay to use sentry or heavy? Hey thats another 300 dps on top of its already superior dps.

Yes im sure caldari pilots are thankful for having not only the T1 raven but, the beastly CNR that had some of the highest dps of navy ships just took a back seat to minmatar ships on both fronts.

Hold the press, lets cheer for that one ! Seriously?

There have been many posts of how the Phoon changes are loved and people are buying them up, including the people speaking out aginst the bad CNR change. They all agree that the Phoon is better.

The phoons have all the mid slots they need to solo pvp and put down all that higher paper dps and when shield fit, they will blow the CNR away with support, while the CNR will not be better than it either when the phoon is armor or shield tank.

but hey, you get a velocity bonus to make yourself useful over 150km all till that prober takes a few seconds to probe you down, warp the enemy on top of you and laugh because you were dumb enough to try and snipe in a missile ship.
drake duka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1118 - 2013-05-21 04:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: drake duka
Hagika wrote:
drake duka wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Now back to my regularly scheduled program...


CNR change proposal... go back to 7 launchers and 5% ROF.

Lose the velocity bonus and add the explosion radius in place of it.

Keep the other changes intended..


Input folks....

Would be kind of overpowered but you are also underestimating the usefulness of velocity in cruises. I don't think any other ship gets an explosion radius bonus, it's much more useful than velocity.. This alone is a huge buff considering the cruise changes AND the fact that it gets another mid..

Plz tell me when you'd rather have a fleet pest ;). You should be thankful.


Thankful that the one true caldari powerhouse damage battleship just got nerfed in dps because of a cruise buff?
Thankful that the Minmatar counter part is better using the caldari weapon system and puts down more dps in general, and then gets a big fat drone bay to use sentry or heavy? Hey thats another 300 dps on top of its already superior dps.

Yes im sure caldari pilots are thankful for having not only the T1 raven but, the beastly CNR that had some of the highest dps of navy ships just took a back seat to minmatar ships on both fronts.

Hold the press, lets cheer for that one ! Seriously?

There have been many posts of how the Phoon changes are loved and people are buying them up, including the people speaking out aginst the bad CNR change. They all agree that the Phoon is better.

The phoons have all the mid slots they need to solo pvp and put down all that higher paper dps and when shield fit, they will blow the CNR away with support, while the CNR will not be better than it either when the phoon is armor or shield tank.

but hey, you get a velocity bonus to make yourself useful over 150km all till that prober takes a few seconds to probe you down, warp the enemy on top of you and laugh because you were dumb enough to try and snipe in a missile ship.

Explosion radius is HUGE for a torp boat, it isn't being "pigeon holed" as a cruise boat imo. It is now way stronger as a cruise boat for obvious reasons and as for torps, explosion radius+range is immensely useful. Even at 100km the old cruises took quite a while to reach their target. I agree that the range bonus is superfluous on a cruise boat but the bonuses are perfect for torps in any real pvp situation. The only time the old cnr would be a better torp boat is if you're running missions so you are able to fit t2 rigors and exp radius implants, otherwise the new cnr is much better most of the time (and you get another med).

CNR will be THE ONLY ship with explosion radius bonus (which again is much better than exp velocity). And yes the typhoon will be OP but I was saying you don't have to deal with the pest fleet issue, also the scorp navy will be a much better shield fleet ship than phoon.

Yeah it got a 9% dps nerf for 30% cruise buff, seems kinda fair to me. Would you really trade 9% dps for 25% exp radius and an extra med slot?
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1119 - 2013-05-21 04:43:53 UTC
I'm not convinced that the Phoon FI will be much use as a shield PvP ship. Sure, it'll deliver tons of DPS like that, but so will a CNR (and the CPR's will be less affected by target size and will suffer less from delay), and both the CNR and the SNI will be tankier (or as tanky and have more mid utility). It doesn't seem like the optimal choice for a shield tanked gang/fleet ship. Depending on the exact role, you'll want a CNR or SNI for that.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#1120 - 2013-05-21 04:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
drake duka wrote:
Hagika wrote:
drake duka wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Now back to my regularly scheduled program...


CNR change proposal... go back to 7 launchers and 5% ROF.

Lose the velocity bonus and add the explosion radius in place of it.

Keep the other changes intended..


Input folks....

Would be kind of overpowered but you are also underestimating the usefulness of velocity in cruises. I don't think any other ship gets an explosion radius bonus, it's much more useful than velocity.. This alone is a huge buff considering the cruise changes AND the fact that it gets another mid..

Plz tell me when you'd rather have a fleet pest ;). You should be thankful.


Thankful that the one true caldari powerhouse damage battleship just got nerfed in dps because of a cruise buff?
Thankful that the Minmatar counter part is better using the caldari weapon system and puts down more dps in general, and then gets a big fat drone bay to use sentry or heavy? Hey thats another 300 dps on top of its already superior dps.

Yes im sure caldari pilots are thankful for having not only the T1 raven but, the beastly CNR that had some of the highest dps of navy ships just took a back seat to minmatar ships on both fronts.

Hold the press, lets cheer for that one ! Seriously?

There have been many posts of how the Phoon changes are loved and people are buying them up, including the people speaking out aginst the bad CNR change. They all agree that the Phoon is better.

The phoons have all the mid slots they need to solo pvp and put down all that higher paper dps and when shield fit, they will blow the CNR away with support, while the CNR will not be better than it either when the phoon is armor or shield tank.

but hey, you get a velocity bonus to make yourself useful over 150km all till that prober takes a few seconds to probe you down, warp the enemy on top of you and laugh because you were dumb enough to try and snipe in a missile ship.

Explosion radius is HUGE for a torp boat, it isn't being "pigeon holed" as a cruise boat imo. It is now way stronger as a cruise boat for obvious reasons and as for torps, explosion radius+range is immensely useful. Even at 100km the old cruises took quite a while to reach their target. I agree that the range bonus is superfluous on a cruise boat but the bonuses are perfect for torps in any real pvp situation. The only time the old cnr would be a better torp boat is if you're running missions so you are able to fit t2 rigors and exp radius implants, otherwise the new cnr is much better most of the time (and you get another med).

CNR will be THE ONLY ship with explosion radius bonus (which again is much better than exp velocity). And yes the typhoon will be OP but I was saying you don't have to deal with the pest fleet issue, also the scorp navy will be a much better shield fleet ship than phoon.

Yeah it got a 9% dps nerf for 30% cruise buff, seems kinda fair to me. Would you really trade 9% dps for 25% exp radius and an extra med slot?


I rather have the full on dps it had before. Applying it is easy with support for pvp and though it has an explosion radius bonus, that doesnt make up the lost dps from the RoF bonus loss.

I would be elated if the velocity bonus was dropped and a damage bonus was added with the 7 launchers, or go back to the RoF bonus with 7 launcher.

Edit- I do agree the Fleet tempest is rather sad.