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MEDIUM RAILGUNS TO BE IGNORED FOR A SECOND CONSECUTIVE DECADE?
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Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1 - 2013-05-20 06:44:50 UTC
I see above something like 15 stickies with various balance changes some needed, some randm and arbittrary and some fixing things that were ok to start with.

Through all this STILL NO BUFF TO MEDIUM RAILGUNS.

Seriously what are you smoking there in CCP HQ? Can you fix the M Rails or at least share some of that stuff???
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-05-20 07:20:49 UTC
fixing xl-hybrids was a higher priority. Since, you know, it was jsut a burning question raised by thousands of players.


Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#3 - 2013-05-20 07:26:12 UTC
I'm sure M rails will get fixed on the exact patch missiles, drones and any beam laser gets fixed. That being said, M rails really are the pits for M class weapons (M beams coming in a close second).
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#4 - 2013-05-20 08:13:08 UTC
Super spikinator wrote:
I'm sure M rails will get fixed on the exact patch missiles, drones and any beam laser gets fixed. That being said, M rails really are the pits for M class weapons (M beams coming in a close second).


I have used missiles drones and beam lasers often and at times some of these systems, in turns, were easily described as OP.

Examples:

- 8xOgre Thorax was what got me hooked on pvp (and how I got my first bottle of carbear tear dew)

- Tech II cruise raven and HM Cerberus when low sig missiles first came out. You only needed 1 anti support vessel in your fleet to solo kill all enemy support.

- beam lasers? Tachyons Roll lawl

- HM Tengu king of EvE for a couple of years?

- Domi owning 1v1s many times through eve history and soon becoming the BBQ machine of TQ...

There is so many examples that there is no point in going on...

Medium rails though... now that was ALWAYS meh at best.

0wl
Hailbird
#5 - 2013-05-20 08:34:41 UTC
Maybe you should go read the dev posts in the middle on the Navy Battleship changes ... oh, who am I kidding you're not gonna do that! Well they've said the changes to them are coming.
Danni stark
#6 - 2013-05-20 10:12:50 UTC
they've already said they're fixing them, have some patience.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#7 - 2013-05-20 10:25:58 UTC
Super spikinator wrote:
I'm sure M rails will get fixed on the exact patch missiles, drones and any beam laser gets fixed. That being said, M rails really are the pits for M class weapons (M beams coming in a close second).

Unlike rails, medium beams actually see some use. Beam Zealots, for instance, have been used.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#8 - 2013-05-20 11:05:14 UTC
Confirming that medium rails are simply bad. Even for easy mode game play like PvE.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#9 - 2013-05-20 13:05:58 UTC
0wl wrote:
Maybe you should go read the dev posts in the middle on the Navy Battleship changes ... oh, who am I kidding you're not gonna do that! Well they've said the changes to them are coming.


They have been persistantly and reliably saying this ever since 2006, give or take...

It's their track record in doing it that actually has me worried.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-05-20 13:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Crellion wrote:

- beam lasers? Tachyons Roll lawl



edit: derp.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-05-20 13:29:41 UTC
Medium rails are hard to balance without they becomming exact copies of the beams or arties. Alpha are arties .... tracking and raw dps are beams. Raisl are supposed to have superior range, but that usually doe snto cut as enough on the M size.

What coudl be possibly done to keep them with flavor, is increase their ROF, so more damage but at cost of a bit more capcitor.

These are hard to balance weapons.... maybe changes on the T1 ammo as they did with projectiles ammo. Sicne rails do not need so much range improvment. Skew the t1 damage more towards damage and less range improvment.... maybe?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#12 - 2013-05-20 13:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
I don't think they're as bad as people make them out to be. Medium long-range guns in general don't do a lot of dps, but rails are quite competitive with the other two. What they don't have is alpha, which IMO is a good thing, as that's the only thing keeping medium arty from being useless...it needs a role.

Here's some damage graphs to demonstrate. One with regular short range ammo, one with long range T2 ammo.

SR- http://i.imgur.com/c4MqVGw.png

LR- http://i.imgur.com/G6C1sNv.png


The problem, I think, is in the hulls. CCP tries to pin them as Caldari weapons, and the caldari hybrid platforms universally have rather weak damage bonuses, favoring optimal range instead, while using too much CPU to reasonably fit onto some of the gallente hulls. The recent patches have helped mitigate a lot of that, thankfully, but there's still room for improvement.



Also, caps lock is cruise control for cool...

thhief ghabmoef
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#13 - 2013-05-20 14:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Crellion
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
I don't think they're as bad as people make them out to be. Medium long-range guns in general don't do a lot of dps, but rails are quite competitive with the other two. What they don't have is alpha, which IMO is a good thing, as that's the only thing keeping medium arty from being useless...it needs a role.

Here's some damage graphs to demonstrate. One with regular short range ammo, one with long range T2 ammo.

SR- http://i.imgur.com/c4MqVGw.png

LR- http://i.imgur.com/G6C1sNv.png


The problem, I think, is in the hulls. CCP tries to pin them as Caldari weapons, and the caldari hybrid platforms universally have rather weak damage bonuses, favoring optimal range instead, while using too much CPU to reasonably fit onto some of the gallente hulls. The recent patches have helped mitigate a lot of that, thankfully, but there's still room for improvement.



Also, caps lock is cruise control for cool...


I agree with most of this. The solution for Caldari is well known, give them the same damage bonus as the gallente boats with range where gallente get tracking.

The weapon system however needs some help too and if they can think of nothing better I d go for some secondary attribute buff. Example keep Javelin tracking bonus while giving it same range as AM. Arguably it would obsolete AM but to stop this you could heavily increase cap usage. This would enable a high dps mid range role that would work well as a parallel to blasters. It should do (for example) on an Eagle hull 90% of the dps a Zealot gets with scorch on pulses (before damage mods), thus finding a niche and filling it.

Anyway thats just an idea and people have forwarded many many different ideas about this in the past. I feel no urgency to clone those debates. I am just posting to highlight the need for urgent action...
Farq Erata
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-05-20 16:36:47 UTC
I am a new player who is trying to go the railgun route. All i have heard from the internet is how terrible the Moa, Ferox, Rohk line is. Out of all the Odyssey notes I have read, what stuck most was "nerfing Moa, Ferox and Rohk" :(
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-05-20 16:49:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Farq Erata wrote:
I am a new player who is trying to go the railgun route. All i have heard from the internet is how terrible the Moa, Ferox, Rohk line is. Out of all the Odyssey notes I have read, what stuck most was "nerfing Moa, Ferox and Rohk" :(



Rokh is jsut losing some resists (I am not happy with it but not end of the world...I'll learn to move on lol). The nybrids on rokh can be fine. Large hybrids in fact for caldari and gallente are fine. So are small hybrids. Mediums jsut stick out like sore thumbs as crap and have done so for a while.

In the case of caldari you get a very good hybrid boat in the BC class It would be naga. Like I said, large hybrids are fine lol.
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#16 - 2013-05-20 22:06:11 UTC
Farq Erata wrote:
I am a new player who is trying to go the railgun route. All i have heard from the internet is how terrible the Moa, Ferox, Rohk line is. Out of all the Odyssey notes I have read, what stuck most was "nerfing Moa, Ferox and Rohk" :(

Moas and Feroxes are brilliant ships.. if you put blasters on them.

The Rokh is probably the best all-around fleet battleship, and it can be fit to great effect with both rails and blasters.

Training for railguns is pretty much the same as training for blasters anyway, so you might as well use both depending on hull and situation.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#17 - 2013-05-20 22:37:33 UTC
Farq Erata wrote:
I am a new player who is trying to go the railgun route. All i have heard from the internet is how terrible the Moa, Ferox, Rohk line is. Out of all the Odyssey notes I have read, what stuck most was "nerfing Moa, Ferox and Rohk" :(


I really want to like the ferox (badass looking hull), but medium rails make it a terrible ship to fit and I'd rather fly a shuttle
CCP: Please buff the ferox so I can have my spiky caldari battlecruiser and use it for more than ship spinning

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt