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Is Eve art or a product?

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fuer0n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-05-19 19:26:46 UTC
Cat Troll wrote:
Art is irreducible.
If something is bigger than the sum of its parts, its art.

If Gameplay + Story + Presentation = Game then its not art.
If Gameplay + Story + Presentation < Game then its art.

I could tell people about the gameplay.
I could tell people about the story.
I could tell people about the cool stuff like the downfall of BoB.

But in the end, the only true way to experience EVE is by playing it, because trying to summarize its parts doesn't give it much credit.



eve still sucks compared to the likes of tribes. Big smile for me anyway.
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
#42 - 2013-05-19 19:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Troll
fuer0n wrote:
Cat Troll wrote:
Art is irreducible.
If something is bigger than the sum of its parts, its art.

If Gameplay + Story + Presentation = Game then its not art.
If Gameplay + Story + Presentation < Game then its art.

I could tell people about the gameplay.
I could tell people about the story.
I could tell people about the cool stuff like the downfall of BoB.

But in the end, the only true way to experience EVE is by playing it, because trying to summarize its parts doesn't give it much credit.



eve still sucks compared to the likes of tribes. Big smile for me anyway.

Because your brain automatically breaks it down into parts and sees how broken some of it is.
However, I trained my brain to not do that instantly, and just let the game do its thing.
That way, I can tell if the whole experience is good before I start judging mechanics which might cloud my judgement.

EVE was an awesome experience for me before I broke it down into parts.
Just those first few steps in your CQ, getting your first ship, working up my skills, doing my first market manipulation, it was a great feeling, and it all felt tied together.

This, in my opinion, is art.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."
fuer0n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-05-19 19:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: fuer0n
Cat Troll wrote:
fuer0n wrote:
Cat Troll wrote:
Art is irreducible.
If something is bigger than the sum of its parts, its art.

If Gameplay + Story + Presentation = Game then its not art.
If Gameplay + Story + Presentation < Game then its art.

I could tell people about the gameplay.
I could tell people about the story.
I could tell people about the cool stuff like the downfall of BoB.

But in the end, the only true way to experience EVE is by playing it, because trying to summarize its parts doesn't give it much credit.



eve still sucks compared to the likes of tribes. Big smile for me anyway.

Because your brain automatically breaks it down into parts and sees how broken some of it is.
However, I trained my brain to not do that instantly, and just let the game do its thing.
That way, I can tell if the whole experience is good before I start judging mechanics which might cloud my judgement.

EVE was an awesome experience for me before I broke it down into parts.
Just those first few steps in your CQ, getting your first ship, working up my skills, doing my first market manipulation, it was a great feeling, and it all felt tied together.

This, in my opinion, is art.


you make me sound like a troll.:P i dont Kare

ps i never manipulated the market i just played it:P
Shao Huang
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-05-19 19:40:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Shao Huang
Cat Troll wrote:
Art is irreducible.
If something is bigger than the sum of its parts, its art.

If Gameplay + Story + Presentation = Game then its not art.
If Gameplay + Story + Presentation < Game then its art.

I could tell people about the gameplay.
I could tell people about the story.
I could tell people about the cool stuff like the downfall of BoB.

But in the end, the only true way to experience EVE is by playing it, because trying to summarize its parts doesn't give it much credit.

This is an interesting frame and quite useful. I notice I think of it a but differently, but in a way that seems related.

I do not think art resides in an object, or the artist as an object, i.e. irreducible as you have said.

What I look at is something like the transformative experience. For instance, I go to a play. I depart from one world and enter through participation into another world. Upon re-emerging from the world of the play/poem/painting/music I find that the world I am returning to seems to have changed. Might be temporary, might be more 'extreme' than that.

I think this is one of the primary differences between the modern version of entertainment (”Here we are, entertain us") and the Shakespearean lexical version, in which entertainment means to hold attention between two points.

Aesthetic, beauty, attraction, horror, revulsion in the encounter are all then in service of this, as well as something in themselves.

So then, to what extent is my world potentially transformed by EVE and what is required for that? I read your suggested model as consistent with this idea, but can't tell for sure.

Private sig. Do not read.
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
#45 - 2013-05-19 19:41:19 UTC
fuer0n wrote:
Cat Troll wrote:
fuer0n wrote:
Cat Troll wrote:
Art is irreducible.
If something is bigger than the sum of its parts, its art.

If Gameplay + Story + Presentation = Game then its not art.
If Gameplay + Story + Presentation < Game then its art.

I could tell people about the gameplay.
I could tell people about the story.
I could tell people about the cool stuff like the downfall of BoB.

But in the end, the only true way to experience EVE is by playing it, because trying to summarize its parts doesn't give it much credit.



eve still sucks compared to the likes of tribes. Big smile for me anyway.

Because your brain automatically breaks it down into parts and sees how broken some of it is.
However, I trained my brain to not do that instantly, and just let the game do its thing.
That way, I can tell if the whole experience is good before I start judging mechanics which might cloud my judgement.

EVE was an awesome experience for me before I broke it down into parts.
Just those first few steps in your CQ, getting your first ship, working up my skills, doing my first market manipulation, it was a great feeling, and it all felt tied together.

This, in my opinion, is art.


you make me sound like a troll.:P i dont Kare

No, I just point out a problem that most games face.
People treat games by there parts instead of trying to experience it as a big whole.
Its not trolling to try and do something very natural.
That's why some reviewers can give a game a terrible score because its parts are broken, but if the overall experience is great gamers like it and bash the reviewrs for just doing their job.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."
fuer0n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-05-19 19:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: fuer0n
just do it right for the player and not any short cut ******* shortcuts. and if you can put gameplay in so that different languages can "speak" thats good. it would be a good start. tribes did all that btw.
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
#47 - 2013-05-19 19:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Troll
Shao Huang wrote:
Cat Troll wrote:
Art is irreducible.
If something is bigger than the sum of its parts, its art.

If Gameplay + Story + Presentation = Game then its not art.
If Gameplay + Story + Presentation < Game then its art.

I could tell people about the gameplay.
I could tell people about the story.
I could tell people about the cool stuff like the downfall of BoB.

But in the end, the only true way to experience EVE is by playing it, because trying to summarize its parts doesn't give it much credit.

This is an interesting frame and quite useful. I notice I think of it a but differently, but in a way that seems related.

I do not think art resides in an object, or the artist as an object, i.e. irreducible as you have said.

What I look at is something like the transformative experience. For instance, I go to a play. I depart from one world and enter through participation into another world. Upon re-emerging from the world of the play/poem/painting/music I find that the world I am returning to seems to have changed. Might be temporary, might be more 'extreme' than that.

I think this is one of the primary differences between the modern version of entertainment (”Here we are, entertain us") and the Shakespearean lexical version, in which entertainment means to hold attention between two points.

Aesthetic, beauty, attraction, horror, revulsion in the encounter are all then in service of this, as well as something in themselves.

So then, to what extent is my world potentially transformed by EVE and what is required for that? I read your suggested model as consistent with this idea, but can't tell for sure.

That's also a very true way to look at it.
There isn't a single definition as to what art is, hence its hard to debate.

But here is what makes EVE art in your form:
The first time I played it, and started exploring everything I could, once I came out of the game and back into the real world, I felt a huge urge.
An urge to pee, that's for one, and another bigger one.
The urge to explore space.
Its my dream now, even more so than it was before, and I will not feel like I died living a full life until I can at least fly a spaceship through our solar system.
Sadly this probably won't happen within my lifetime and my budget, hence EVE also left me with a great sadness.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."
Shao Huang
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-05-19 19:51:00 UTC
Cat Troll wrote:
[quote=fuer0n][quote=Cat Troll]
Because your brain automatically breaks it down into parts and sees how broken some of it is.
However, I trained my brain to not do that instantly, and just let the game do its thing.
That way, I can tell if the whole experience is good before I start judging mechanics which might cloud my judgement.

EVE was an awesome experience for me before I broke it down into parts.
Just those first few steps in your CQ, getting your first ship, working up my skills, doing my first market manipulation, it was a great feeling, and it all felt tied together.

This, in my opinion, is art.


It is unclear that this is the primary thing that the 'brain' does. You are describing analysis. We also synthesize. We sometimes do both. Additionally we experience what is currently being called 'insight' by neurologists ("Watchman's Rattle") which has more to do with the more or less immediate acquisition of wholes when the complexity of the phenomena exceeds the cognitive threshold of analytic or synthetic thinking.

What I hear you describing is that the learning curve in EVE tends to exceed cognitive thresholds, in terms of capacity for complexity and such. Responses to this vary. In some cases we try to rabidly apply analytic or synthetic thinking, even though it is in that moment not actually working. Sometimes we sort of tip over into something else as a way of navigating. That can be experienced as a kind of immersion-emergence process, it seems to me. Aspects of it can quite literally be ecstatic.

Private sig. Do not read.
fuer0n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-05-19 19:51:12 UTC
start by making the game good for the player.
fuer0n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-05-19 19:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: fuer0n
Shao Huang wrote:
Cat Troll wrote:
[quote=fuer0n][quote=Cat Troll]
Because your brain automatically breaks it down into parts and sees how broken some of it is.
However, I trained my brain to not do that instantly, and just let the game do its thing.
That way, I can tell if the whole experience is good before I start judging mechanics which might cloud my judgement.

EVE was an awesome experience for me before I broke it down into parts.
Just those first few steps in your CQ, getting your first ship, working up my skills, doing my first market manipulation, it was a great feeling, and it all felt tied together.

This, in my opinion, is art.


It is unclear that this is the primary thing that the 'brain' does. You are describing analysis. We also synthesize. We sometimes do both. Additionally we experience what is currently being called 'insight' by neurologists ("Watchman's Rattle") which has more to do with the more or less immediate acquisition of wholes when the complexity of the phenomena exceeds the cognitive threshold of analytic or synthetic thinking.

What I hear you describing is that the learning curve in EVE tends to exceed cognitive thresholds, in terms of capacity for complexity and such. Responses to this vary. In some cases we try to rabidly apply analytic or synthetic thinking, even though it is in that moment not actually working. Sometimes we sort of tip over into something else as a way of navigating. That can be experienced as a kind of immersion-emergence process, it seems to me. Aspects of it can quite literally be ecstatic.


they fookin suck, cheating cockheads. Big smile

bones? i belive steven fry s lines.
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#51 - 2013-05-19 19:57:31 UTC
Every player contributes a little swatch to the giant tapestry of eve. So yes it is art it many forms.


It's also a service and product, but that doesn't diminish it.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Shao Huang
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-05-19 19:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Shao Huang
where I grew up I could see all the Apollo rockets burning toward the moon. I remember this very, very clearly. It effected my dreams and sense of the world for many years... Still does. I lived much of my adolescence immersed in sci-fi. I remember clearly wanting to be a kind of xenologist. I am often disappointed in our collective lack of progress in this area, as we get 'distracted' by much more 'destructive' sorts of things acted out locally on the planet.

EDIT: crap... Screwed up the edit....

Private sig. Do not read.
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
#53 - 2013-05-19 20:00:02 UTC
Shao Huang wrote:
Shao Huang wrote:
Cat Troll wrote:
[quote=fuer0n][quote=Cat Troll]
Because your brain automatically breaks it down into parts and sees how broken some of it is.
However, I trained my brain to not do that instantly, and just let the game do its thing.
That way, I can tell if the whole experience is good before I start judging mechanics which might cloud my judgement.

EVE was an awesome experience for me before I broke it down into parts.
Just those first few steps in your CQ, getting your first ship, working up my skills, doing my first market manipulation, it was a great feeling, and it all felt tied together.

This, in my opinion, is art.


It is unclear that this is the primary thing that the 'brain' does. You are describing analysis. We also synthesize. We sometimes do both. Additionally we experience what is currently being called 'insight' by neurologists ("Watchman's Rattle") which has more to do with the more or less immediate acquisition of wholes when the complexity of the phenomena exceeds the cognitive threshold of analytic or synthetic thinking.

What I hear you describing is that the learning curve in EVE tends to exceed cognitive thresholds, in terms of capacity for complexity and such. Responses to this vary. In some cases we try to rabidly apply analytic or synthetic thinking, even though it is in that moment not actually working. Sometimes we sort of tip over into something else as a way of navigating. That can be experienced as a kind of immersion-emergence process, it seems to me. Aspects of it can quite literally be ecstatic.


Edit: where I grew up I could see all the Apollo rockets burning toward the moon. I remember this very, very clearly. It effected my dreams and sense of the world for many years... Still does. I lived much of my adolescence immersed in sci-fi. I remember clearly wanting to be a kind of xenologist. I am often disappointed in our collective lack of progress in this area, as we get 'distracted' by much more 'destructive' sorts of things acted out locally on the planet.

Heh, I'm far too young to remember that, but I am a very curious type.
EVE just made my curiosity explode.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."
fuer0n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-05-19 20:01:27 UTC
NEXT
Twisted
Kathina Tryndal
The Mitre Corporation
#55 - 2013-05-20 01:22:52 UTC
Must resist getting involved with this thread... Must resist getting involved with this thread... (Not sure if people are ready to/can handle the truth ;) ).
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2013-05-20 12:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
eve is a digital world, a living thing housing our thoughts and actions, an expanding microcosmos

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-05-20 12:26:45 UTC
I came for the chicks...till I found out that those girl avatars belong to fat guys pulling their dicks in their basements...
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#58 - 2013-05-20 15:09:13 UTC
Ekhss Nihilo
The Night Watchmen
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2013-05-20 18:41:20 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:
ISD Ezwal wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
EVE is more likely to be an autistic experience than an artistic one.
Well, according to some quite influential people in the world of modern art....



Modern art can be a bit of a joke.

Some of it's not much better than 2 house bricks stood on end with a jam doughnut bridging the gap.


Mmmmmm... Doughnuts. Seriously, though. my take on EVE as new citizen is that it's all a matter of how far and how wide you care to cast your net.

World domination and all it entails appeals to some.

The dark side of the will to power: the slaughter and destruction of others for its own sake, seems to draw more than a few to this venue.

More than anything else, and for me at least, the sense of wonder that accompanies the exploration of a brilliantly conceived and executed environment is its own reward. And this is where the creators of the EVE universe really shine. There is a remarkable story of real depth behind it all that is still evolving, and better still, we all have a hand in it. Every human foible and grace is here on display.

You can play to your basest desires or live the courage of your convictions. Nothing else compares to the EVE universe. It makes everything else look crude and cartoonish.

"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius (AD 121-180)
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-05-20 18:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Six Six Six
Ekhss Nihilo wrote:
Six Six Six wrote:
ISD Ezwal wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
EVE is more likely to be an autistic experience than an artistic one.
Well, according to some quite influential people in the world of modern art....



Modern art can be a bit of a joke.

Some of it's not much better than 2 house bricks stood on end with a jam doughnut bridging the gap.


Mmmmmm... Doughnuts. Seriously, though. my take on EVE as new citizen is that it's all a matter of how far and how wide you care to cast your net.

World domination and all it entails appeals to some.

The dark side of the will to power: the slaughter and destruction of others for its own sake, seems to draw more than a few to this venue.

More than anything else, and for me at least, the sense of wonder that accompanies the exploration of a brilliantly conceived and executed environment is its own reward. And this is where the creators of the EVE universe really shine. There is a remarkable story of real depth behind it all that is still evolving, and better still, we all have a hand in it. Every human foible and grace is here on display.

You can play to your basest desires or live the courage of your convictions. Nothing else compares to the EVE universe. It makes everything else look crude and cartoonish.




I can understand the way you look at EVE although I still don't think it's art although it contains art..

I don't see it the same way as you though, but I first landed in EVE in 2005. It's a bit like in the real world if you get too familiar with a place, you tend to notice less and less.
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