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Real expectations for L4 missions
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#21 - 2013-05-15 21:29:25 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
Auduin Samson wrote:
T2 guns are preferred as they are slightly better and slightly cheaper than (most) meta 4s. However, meta 4s are easier to fit and still pack a decent punch. T2s are more of a requirement for PvP, where every percentage point can be the difference between shiny loot and pod jumping home.



T2's are not a more PVP related requirement. They with their T2 ammo make a substantial difference to even PVE. Lasers have a bigger need to be T2 as the need for range due to small optimal requires the use of scorch and arora to get dps out at range..


It's not just the ammo (though that's nice).

How much would you pay for an 8% damage implant? Because that's exactly what getting T2 spec 4 will get you for any given gun over meta 4.
Jimbo Mann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-05-17 14:58:40 UTC
I've had quite a bit of trouble sorting out my tank with my apoc for level 4 missions.

Right now I have

[Apocalypse, L4 Missioner]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Large Armor Repair II
Large Armor Repair II
Mission Specific Hardener II
Mission Specific Hardener II

Capacitor Recharger II
Capacitor Recharger II
Capacitor Recharger II
100NM Afterburner I

Heavy Dual Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Heavy Dual Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Heavy Dual Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Heavy Dual Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Heavy Dual Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Heavy Dual Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Heavy Dual Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Heavy Dual Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Auxiliary Armor Nano Pump I

I have fiddled around with Removing the second LAR and a Heat Sink to add 2 more specific hardeners, but that leaves my DPS too low. Also, removing either a Cap rig for another Armor rig or removing a cap recharger leaves me with too little cap.

I'm thinking about swapping one of the LARs for a Large Auxiliary Armor Repairers and Nano Paste, but I worry that replacing the paste would get a bit expensive even if I only turn that one on when it really hits the fan. I've also tried pulses, but they lack too much range to make up for it, as getting in that close to my enemies really increases the amount of damage I have to tank.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-05-17 16:05:26 UTC
One thing I tried once with a ratting Apoc was a Reactive Armor Hardener to complement a single LAR and two active armor hardeners. Of course, I was in null plexes and better able to control range.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Ambusher Ituin
Roughneck Raiders
#24 - 2013-05-17 16:29:26 UTC
The OP raised two questions: Is running L4 missions viable with T1 weapons and is it more profitable than mining at 10 mil ISK per hour.

Previous posters have assured him on the first question. I started running solo L4s in a CN Raven with T1 weapons and I never met a mission I couldn't tame, although I did discover some of the stupidest ways ever to lose ships. A corp mate just got into an Apoc and he's running solo L4s successfully by carefully choosing which missions to accept. So you should just tank it as best you can, get your DPS as high as you can and go forth.

The profitability question is different. The types of missions an L4 agent hands out depends on your standing with the agent. And the profitability depends in part on the security status of the system in which the agent resides, Here's one benchmark: If you accept the Angel Extravaganza mission from an L4 agent with whom you have a 10.0 standing in a 0.5 system, you will earn 20 million in mission awards and bounties and an additional 20 mil in salvage. Beats the tar out of solo mining. Few missions are quite as lucrative as Angel Ex, but nearly all L4 missions will beat 10 mil/hour when you combine the mission awards, bounties, and salvage. The margin will not be so great when your ship is equipped with T1 weapons, but it will still be more lucrative.

Fly safe.

Don't panic now … there'll be plenty of time to do that later.
Fruitbat
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-05-17 18:38:35 UTC
I am currently running lvl3 sec missions in a command ship and am interested in lvl 4's as its getting a bit fish in barrel tbh, I dont have a t1 apoc atm but i do have a Abaddon, i also only have large laser turret 4 but have armour compensation 4 on all 4 skills.

Is the abaddon ok for lvl4's? looking at the stats its a great tank with a few stats higher than an apoc.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-05-17 20:42:30 UTC
erm, depending on command ship you should be able to runs 4s in it.

Art of Explosions
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-05-18 11:55:27 UTC
Fruitbat wrote:
I am currently running lvl3 sec missions in a command ship and am interested in lvl 4's as its getting a bit fish in barrel tbh, I dont have a t1 apoc atm but i do have a Abaddon, i also only have large laser turret 4 but have armour compensation 4 on all 4 skills.

Is the abaddon ok for lvl4's? looking at the stats its a great tank with a few stats higher than an apoc.


The Abaddon has a lot of great stats - bonuses to its laser cannons and its resists - but its problem is that it's a capacitor-hungry monster. Odyssey's bringing with it some changes to lasers - reduced cap demands and fitting requirements - and it'll take some time to figure out how all the battleships react to the tiericide changes, but for the moment, I'd be scared to use an Abaddon for long-duration sustained combat (such as in missions) unless I had either a pile of cap boosters in my hold or a Guardian ready to feed me a cap transfer.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Fruitbat
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-05-18 16:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Fruitbat
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
erm, depending on command ship you should be able to runs 4s in it.


I'm running an Absolution

6 x heavy pulse II scorch & conf. lens
1x T2 Light missile with scourge missiles

med AB
2x T2 cap recharger

2x T2 Heatsink
T2 tracking enhancer
T2 Armour Rep
Serpentis energized Kinetic membrane
Dark blood energized Thermic membrane
T2 energized EM membrane


med Aux nano pump 1
med Capacitor control circuit 1


A friend said i should have a plate on there but im not so sure, also think the tracking computer might be a waste of space.
Throktar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#29 - 2013-05-18 19:35:29 UTC
I only use Navy Tachs on my Pally. Navy guns are so much better when it comes to cap use. After odyssey all beams will use less cap and less power grid, which is great.

I started playing in 2008 and about a month later I was running lvl 4's in my 1st BS ever...an Abbadon. I had that ship for about 3 months before I got blown up because of girlfriend aggro. Bought another one and I still have that same ship to this day. My point is, you can do it if you are careful and fit your ship well. Remember in Amarr ships you don't need to be cap stable, you just need to kill fast.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-05-18 19:51:45 UTC
Fruitbat wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
erm, depending on command ship you should be able to runs 4s in it.


I'm running an Absolution

6 x heavy pulse II scorch & conf. lens
1x T2 Light missile with scourge missiles

med AB
2x T2 cap recharger

2x T2 Heatsink
T2 tracking enhancer
T2 Armour Rep
Serpentis energized Kinetic membrane
Dark blood energized Thermic membrane
T2 energized EM membrane


med Aux nano pump 1
med Capacitor control circuit 1


A friend said i should have a plate on there but im not so sure, also think the tracking computer might be a waste of space.


[Absolution, test]
Reactive Armor Hardener
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Corelum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I


Hobgoblin II x5


try dis, for sansha.

If doing serpentis just switch the em for kinetic hardener.

It tanks 330+ dps

579 DPS just from turrets

yes you will have to use a cap booster, but that's true for most ships that aren't T3s.

Art of Explosions
Fruitbat
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-05-19 10:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Fruitbat
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Fruitbat wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
erm, depending on command ship you should be able to runs 4s in it.


I'm running an Absolution

6 x heavy pulse II scorch & conf. lens
1x T2 Light missile with scourge missiles

med AB
2x T2 cap recharger

2x T2 Heatsink
T2 tracking enhancer
T2 Armour Rep
Serpentis energized Kinetic membrane
Dark blood energized Thermic membrane
T2 energized EM membrane


med Aux nano pump 1
med Capacitor control circuit 1


A friend said i should have a plate on there but im not so sure, also think the tracking computer might be a waste of space.


[Absolution, test]
Reactive Armor Hardener
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Corelum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I


Hobgoblin II x5


try dis, for sansha.

If doing serpentis just switch the em for kinetic hardener.

It tanks 330+ dps

579 DPS just from turrets

yes you will have to use a cap booster, but that's true for most ships that aren't T3s.



Wow, thats a pricey setup!

If Go with the standard apoc what setup should i be looking at? to start lvl 4's in a command is a bit scary to me, think id prefer to at least start in a ship with a bit more tin around me :)

Appreciate the help with this folks.

Edit: After liquidating some assets i can afford to buy a navy apoc and have about 200 mil to fit it on top of the T2 stuff i have already for it, worth going this route?
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-05-19 11:14:19 UTC
Fruitbat wrote:
Edit: After liquidating some assets i can afford to buy a navy apoc and have about 200 mil to fit it on top of the T2 stuff i have already for it, worth going this route?


If said Navy Apoc goes boom in the very first mission, can you afford to replace it? If not, then no.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-05-19 11:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Fruitbat wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Fruitbat wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
erm, depending on command ship you should be able to runs 4s in it.


I'm running an Absolution

6 x heavy pulse II scorch & conf. lens
1x T2 Light missile with scourge missiles

med AB
2x T2 cap recharger

2x T2 Heatsink
T2 tracking enhancer
T2 Armour Rep
Serpentis energized Kinetic membrane
Dark blood energized Thermic membrane
T2 energized EM membrane


med Aux nano pump 1
med Capacitor control circuit 1


A friend said i should have a plate on there but im not so sure, also think the tracking computer might be a waste of space.


[Absolution, test]
Reactive Armor Hardener
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Corelum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I


Hobgoblin II x5


try dis, for sansha.

If doing serpentis just switch the em for kinetic hardener.

It tanks 330+ dps

579 DPS just from turrets

yes you will have to use a cap booster, but that's true for most ships that aren't T3s.



Wow, thats a pricey setup!

If Go with the standard apoc what setup should i be looking at? to start lvl 4's in a command is a bit scary to me, think id prefer to at least start in a ship with a bit more tin around me :)

Appreciate the help with this folks.

Edit: After liquidating some assets i can afford to buy a navy apoc and have about 200 mil to fit it on top of the T2 stuff i have already for it, worth going this route?


You're flying a 200m+ tech 2 hull and can't afford to get some decent mods >.>?

Afterburner can be tech 2 and heat sinks you can downgrade to tech 2 as well. I suggest keeping the deadspace repper.

tbh I think you're safer in the absolution but if you're really set on the napoc:

[Apocalypse Navy Issue, pve]
Reactive Armor Hardener
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
100MN Afterburner II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I

561 DPS tank stable without the AB on.

618 DPS from guns alone to 80km optimal. Switch to navy multi and use tracking speed scripts if anything does manage to get close.

Drop EANM for another heatsink if you find it's overtanked but you seem like a cautious type.

Art of Explosions
Fruitbat
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2013-05-19 12:04:15 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Fruitbat wrote:
Edit: After liquidating some assets i can afford to buy a navy apoc and have about 200 mil to fit it on top of the T2 stuff i have already for it, worth going this route?


If said Navy Apoc goes boom in the very first mission, can you afford to replace it? If not, then no.


Good point, Well made. I forgot the golden rule "Dont fly it if you cant afford to loose it."
Fruitbat
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-05-19 13:40:21 UTC
Thank you for the great setups Tsukino, I sat and thought about it and your all right why use an apoc when the command ship is a much tougher nut to crack, ive never really used the faction items except what ive had drop and used T2 for all my setups.

Currently fitting out the Absolution starting with the Armour rep you suggested. Ive moved back to an Amarr agent so i can get Amarr fittings and ships instead of the Gal. agent i was using close to my mining base. had to start agin from lvl 2 agents but should be able to rep through them now between the Punisher and the Absol.

Thanks again, hope you dont mind me returning to this tread with more questions. I've just returned to eve after 4.5 years away and have forgotten so much about this game second job.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-05-19 14:40:09 UTC
Well one funny thing about the absolution is that it's best resists are actually explosive and kinetic since it's a tech 2 hull designed to combat minmatar ships that primarily do explosive/kinetic damage.

However since you're using laz0rs, rats you get in amarr space will drop a lot quicker so I guess it evens out overall.

Napoc overall will finish missions faster because of it's extremely long range even with pulses but I mean if it's going to take you a bunch of training, why not use the shiny fat gold eagle of doom in the meanwhile?

Art of Explosions
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#37 - 2013-05-19 14:53:55 UTC
Given your skillset the Absolution makes sense now but it shouldn't be a long term goal, you should work T2 large lasers if you're serious about missioning with lasers, the main thing thats wrong with the Absol is range, no range bonus means that you can get around 30km optimal at best with Scorch, meaning you'll spend alot of time burning into range, which is a waste of time and puts pressure on your tank and cap.

An full t2 Apoc will vastly outperform an Absolution even with deadspace and faction modules as it can easily hit 70-80 km with Scorch, which is why t2 guns are highly recommended, you can use beams but then its subpar and you're better off with your Absolution.

Basically, use your Absolution till you get enough skills to full T2 fit an Apocalypse (as well as Amarr Battleship IV at least). Tsukinos fit is good and definitely something to aim for, but if you want something without any faction modules (which I suggest while learning to use a BS in L4s) here's the cheap fit I use:

[Apocalypse, L4s]

Large Armor Repairer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Cap Recharger II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Requires a 3% cpu implant (cheaper) or faction hardeners to fit (more expensive) without seriously compromising the fit. This will outdps the Absolution and has 76km optimal with Amarr BS IV,
Auduin Samson
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-05-19 23:23:34 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
Auduin Samson wrote:
T2 guns are preferred as they are slightly better and slightly cheaper than (most) meta 4s. However, meta 4s are easier to fit and still pack a decent punch. T2s are more of a requirement for PvP, where every percentage point can be the difference between shiny loot and pod jumping home.



T2's are not a more PVP related requirement. They with their T2 ammo make a substantial difference to even PVE. Lasers have a bigger need to be T2 as the need for range due to small optimal requires the use of scorch and arora to get dps out at range..


Yes, they make a difference and they should be trained for, but you can succeed at running L4s without them. My point was not that they don't have a purpose in PVE, but rather that missions have a much larger tolerance than PVP. You can happily run L4s while training more important support and tank skills with a good set of Meta 4s. T2 guns should be a goal, but they are not a requirement.
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