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Space Pinata First Impressions

First post
Author
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#61 - 2013-05-18 19:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
Viti Friday wrote:

4) the hacking minigame should feel like playing minesweeper, off the top of my head that's the right attitude- have a timer, have a small window of those nodes- nodes show you numbers, your virus strength lets you hit X amount of 'bombs.' Where X is like 0-4 and based off your hacking/archeology skills respectively.


This x 100!
Perfect example of how this sort of puzzle could be (tho i don't like timers). Of course they probably can't just copy minesweeper for copyright reasons. But i'm a bit baffled that a AAA game developer like CCP can't come up with a simple and fun puzzle.

I mean thers probably hundreds and thousands decent puzzle games for flash, mobile devices, some indie games on steam etc. Yet the minigame CCP comes up with isn't even a game.
I don't know what's the issue, lack of capable game designers or management putting thumb down on anything that could overexert the brain dead? (clearly the aspired target audience, seeing other "exciting" PVE activities like mining and FW orbiting)
Viti Friday
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-05-18 20:32:46 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
(tho i don't like timers)


The timer in minesweeper isn't a countdown, it's a counter- the faster you play the better your score- I feel like this could tie into loot, and likewise could have skills effecting it (more leeway for perfect loot, more allowable mistakes for speed-run-guesswork) .
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#63 - 2013-05-18 20:49:26 UTC
Ah yes that sounds perfectly fine. Haven't played minesweeper in ages.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#64 - 2013-05-18 21:01:40 UTC
Personally, as far as hacking is concerned, I'd run something more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nQ0rPLlU8v4#t=285s

Whereas the reward is related to how much you can unlock, while also defending against AI. Allow players to choose which nodes they will go after, and which types of loot they are shooting for.

Two things to agree with my last reply: I agree that they should not reduce the profitability for single player exploration in order to provide more profit for multi-player exploration. Secondly, the hacking mini-game needs to be windowed and controllable.

Finally, an efficient and capable hacker, much like an efficient and capable probe user, should be able to achieve less min-cans. Not everything can be simplified to character skill. You need to include player skill in the mix.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Viti Friday
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-05-18 21:29:10 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Finally, an efficient and capable hacker, much like an efficient and capable probe user, should be able to achieve less min-cans. Not everything can be simplified to character skill. You need to include player skill in the mix.


I've always assumed the two were connected- I mean part of player involvement is getting to the site at all- skills wont find you sites, skills wont keep you safe in the sites (or getting to the sites even). Involving player skill in opening the cans has me leery- While very cool- the virus idea seems like needless work done by us and game designers.

Lets assume the virus game does get fleshed out (very likely)- it will just be one more way that an already very hands-on and active profession is made more so. There are no scanning grinders, people can't blitz scan sites like missions, they can't mimic mining- both professions involving more than a little afk time and such.

Why is scanning getting hacking? and loot explosions? Seriously- we're already doing more to make money than missioners, anom runners, and miners all put together. We risk more often and we risk more isk in a pve profession than almost anyone else.

Yet these changes don't make scanning better- they make it worse. We get a minigame to slow us down, to distract us from the constant awareness we need in hostile space. We get a loot explosion that is more stress inducing than arguing with my inlaws- and about equally rewarding. And worst of all, is we are getting all these changes, and now it looks like we'll be making 1/10th to 1/100th the money we used to make taking all these risks- and this coming from a profession were a nullsec can can drop 50k worth of salvage. The only reason I put up with some mag sites dropping 1-5mil is because of those sweet 1-200mil sites I get every now and then.

I might struggle through new scanning if the money was the same- but I'd burn out just like all my mining friends and missioning friends did before me.

That's what I see at the cold senseless heart of all these changes- they're making every money-earning profession in the game more and more unbearable- more and more likely to get you to quit. The mercurial aspect of my psych says this is so that everyone will pay to play again.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#66 - 2013-05-18 22:10:41 UTC
Viti Friday wrote:
I might struggle through new scanning if the money was the same- but I'd burn out just like all my mining friends and missioning friends did before me.

That's what I see at the cold senseless heart of all these changes- they're making every money-earning profession in the game more and more unbearable- more and more likely to get you to quit. The mercurial aspect of my psych says this is so that everyone will pay to play again.


Completely agree with you. The whole PVE aspect of Eve is so mind numbingly bad. If it was a standalone game it would receive 1/10 reviews left and right. The only PVE activity that i find genuinely pleasing is PI and that takes like 15 minutes to set up and a couple minutes of interaction with the interface once in a while.

It's so distraughting. Eve is fantastic game, that i enjoy a lot but the PVE grind has absolutely nothing to do with that. It's all about the community and player interaction. It's not conceivable why we can't have a game that is good on both ends. Eve would be the greatest game ever. Imo CCP should hire some kickass game designer who revamps all the PVE mechanics and content from the ground up.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#67 - 2013-05-18 22:59:55 UTC
Here is a video of me doing a exploration site in 0.0 with new Odyessy mechanics

The mini game while seeming entirely pointless was not bad and like others have said better than just watching the module cycle and in a strange way gives the whole experience depth. Then the loot spews and all hell breaks loose! I can not emphasize enough how much this type of game-play does not go well with Eve. It's not enjoyable in any sense of the word and is actually dangerous considering you have to have full attention on it or you just wasted a bunch of time (I use the word 'time' loosely here) scanning and hacking. I say dangerous because watching d-scan for ships/combat probes and local for new comers to system is simply impossible.

I have showed some pretty decent pvp'ers who have amazing scanning techniques and they have confirmed my suspicions, they could lock down my position and be in warp to my location in something cloaky in the amount of time it took to reach a relic, play the mini-game and try to capture the loot. That's not even the bad part! You would never see the probes on scan even if your attention was on d-scan and not on the mini-game or loot due to some way they position the probes on you.

My overall opinion is the scanning and hacking part is a nice change but the manner in which you collect the loot is atrocious to say the least due to the MASSIVE click-fest, distraction from very important intel and the simple fact you will never get all the cans leaving you with a sour taste of failure in your mouth.

Oderint Dum Metuant

Solhild
Doomheim
#68 - 2013-05-18 23:32:22 UTC
Aralieus wrote:
Here is a video of me doing a exploration site in 0.0 with new Odyessy mechanics

The mini game while seeming entirely pointless was not bad and like others have said better than just watching the module cycle and in a strange way gives the whole experience depth. Then the loot spews and all hell breaks loose! I can not emphasize enough how much this type of game-play does not go well with Eve. It's not enjoyable in any sense of the word and is actually dangerous considering you have to have full attention on it or you just wasted a bunch of time (I use the word 'time' loosely here) scanning and hacking. I say dangerous because watching d-scan for ships/combat probes and local for new comers to system is simply impossible.

I have showed some pretty decent pvp'ers who have amazing scanning techniques and they have confirmed my suspicions, they could lock down my position and be in warp to my location in something cloaky in the amount of time it took to reach a relic, play the mini-game and try to capture the loot. That's not even the bad part! You would never see the probes on scan even if your attention was on d-scan and not on the mini-game or loot due to some way they position the probes on you.

My overall opinion is the scanning and hacking part is a nice change but the manner in which you collect the loot is atrocious to say the least due to the MASSIVE click-fest, distraction from very important intel and the simple fact you will never get all the cans leaving you with a sour taste of failure in your mouth.


Agreed, you feel like you've lost/missed out - which is bad.
Adunh Slavy
#69 - 2013-05-19 00:24:51 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
It didn't help that the site I was doing was a big flaming ball of gas that was about as bright as the Sun(in Eve).


Always have wondered why CCP feels the need to make things too bright and not give us an option to dim their anoyingly bright objects.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#70 - 2013-05-19 05:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
While I like the mini-game, I more strongly dislike that random contents get spewed from the site.

Come'on! We live and die in space and we suddenly forget how to make a decent docking collar?

Forget this being profitable in the gnosis... you need an interceptor to do this solo.

And... I hate... being forced to work with other people because of a silly mechanic. - YES! I am anti-social. Why do you think I am in a corp by myself (pretend the other members don't exist - ok?)?


Ok, that is out of my system: The mini-game: A+ The spewing of contents: F- (30% of the grade man)

If I am a person who likes running solo, this becomes very annoying (oh, new mod idea: magnetic tackle - draws spewing objects in range to the ship - takes a high slot) because you see potential income drifting away. What year is this? Did no one out of 4 empires and multiple pirate factions think of the consequences of sudden decompression expelling objects into space? Seriously? From a role playing perspective, the can spewing is completely senseless. Decades of people traveling in space and many of them salvaging the remains of the less fortunate and suddenly we no longer can get a decent net to catch the debris?

Some leakage of the contents may happen, but complete and utter failure to catch any before it is vacuumed into the void in inexcusable.

Setting my research agents and contacts to figure out this anomaly... hopefully we can create a solution and offer it up to the rest of New Eden?



EDIT: oh... and no overview option?

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#71 - 2013-05-19 05:53:10 UTC
What the devs seem to have forgotten about a real Piñata is that gravity pulls the candy and toys to the ground where they all get picked up by whoever is there to pick them up. Where is the figurative ground and gravity for my treats to land? If real Piñatas behaved this way, kids would hate them at birthday parties.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#72 - 2013-05-19 11:23:41 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/21HnDCM.jpg - hope that is not intended, cause it causes some serious fps issues.
Itis Zhellin
#73 - 2013-05-19 14:33:19 UTC
M'aak'han wrote:
...

Apparently, there's no way to add the spewed containers to the overview, thus I had the feeling to play whack-a-mole more than anything else...

Made me so angry that I shut down the client, I don't even want to try more of this ( I was already in a bad mood today anyway P)

I managed to add the mini containers to the overview, but soon as I switched the system and scaned down another relic site the overview had reseted and the cans were not visible anymore. And I agree, looting from the cans is so frustrating that I never wanna try again to do any exploration. I already miss the exploration as it is now. Ditto.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-05-19 14:37:42 UTC
I'm not too happy about the new minigame either. Sure, it is a step up from the current, easy-as-frack, target-activate mod, but instead of adding complexity they mostly add pointless clicking.

Concerning the amount of loot: I think it is okay to have some of the loot lost to a solo player, the devs already said that they will adapt the overall amount of loot in the sites. So you still get the same amount of ISK solo as today, but more as a team. I think and hope the current content is just a stand-in for the real loot.
Telrei
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-05-19 15:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Telrei
Why should a solo player lose out on loot????

Hacking and salvaging have always been a break from the mundane tasks of either mining, running anoms, or in high sec missioning.....

The biggest problem is that CCP is taking what has always been and pretty much should always be a solo activity/multi-box and trying to turn it into a requirement to have multiple people running it.

Unless hacking and salvaging suddenly become as profitable as 7/10 or even 8/10 I see no reason why anyone will ever run them now....

How easy do you think it will be to ask corp mates on a regular basis to say hey help me run this site where we have a good chance not to pick up everything and stay while im the only one clicking something. Rather then him saying instead of wasting your time on that help me run these havens/sanctums and we get a 7/10 or 10/10 faster while making more than enough isk to buy everything you could possibly get in that site x3.....
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-05-19 16:53:44 UTC
Telrei wrote:
Why should a solo player lose out on loot????


You will get the same amount as currently, if the devs is to be believed. You just don't get penalized anymore when you take a friend with you.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#77 - 2013-05-19 17:28:25 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Telrei wrote:
Why should a solo player lose out on loot????


You will get the same amount as currently, if the devs is to be believed. You just don't get penalized anymore when you take a friend with you.


This is a win in my opinion, but a lose for others. As some have posted here, the fact that a solo player cannot grab every single mini can makes some people feel like they are losers and incomplete.

I'm of the mindset that rewarding simultaneous team play is a benefit. But as it stands now, rewards to NOT equal out. I haven't come up with a better way to reward multiple players, while not rewarding multi-boxers, while not leaving a player to feel as if he's missing out.

Maybe make multiple 'layers' where your stack of cans are visible to you only, and lootable by you only, so you can grab them all and not feel less capable while still allowing your buddy to loot a separate 'layer' visible only to them?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Telrei
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-05-19 18:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Telrei
Ruze wrote:


I'm of the mindset that rewarding simultaneous team play is a benefit. But as it stands now, rewards to NOT equal out. I haven't come up with a better way to reward multiple players, while not rewarding multi-boxers, while not leaving a player to feel as if he's missing out.




Very simple way of doing it... increase the difficultly, increase the mobs, increase the loot(NO PINATA)...

If CCP wants us to run these with more people then all they have to do is make it worth running in the first place and not having pinata gimmicks..

If I get a 7/10 escalation or especially a 10/10 running anoms I don't think hmmm I wonder who I can bribe to help me with this to help get the cans or how many cans am I going to miss. I send out a "got a 7/10 or 10/10 who wants to run it" and as long as it isn't 20 odd jumps away or a really crappy one chances are I can get a fleet within a hour or at least an event on our corp calendar..

Flip side is that if i get a 5/10 I know I have a good chance to solo it for reduced loot table.

I completely understand and acknowledge this .. Higher level plex requires more people to run since they can drop 1-2bil+ of loot and are a lot more difficult if not impossible to multi-box. Med level requires a descent ship but I can run it solo for less reward, however I understand this due again to the degree of difficulty vs loot table chances
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#79 - 2013-05-19 19:26:19 UTC
you get a 8/10 for the idea of hacking change.

you get a 6/10 for implementing it, in its current form sure its better than watching time but honestly its not that challenging

you get a 2/10 for the loot cloud, that is frankly not fun at all hitting small tiny dots on your screen to gain loot that looks at first glance to be useless
Viti Friday
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-05-19 19:41:17 UTC
I've read a ton of posts talking about how encouraging more people to work together for scanning is good...

It isn't, and I'm here to explain why.

Scanning is NOT a group activity. I've had people fly with me to do sites and they never stick around while I scan a system- they ALWAYS do something else while I scan, coming to me when I've found something. Do you know why this is? Because I'm the fastest scanner. If they could scan down a site, I could scan it and another in the same time.

Sure, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow might require more than one person, but that isn't exploration- that's just ratting. Exploration is about scanning down things you can do.

IMO missions have level 5s, incursions are incursions, mining has links, and scanning has DED sites.

It would be royally ******** to make a level 4 mission require 3 people to make full use of it. And yet missions would be an easier system to force people to group if they did have level 4s that only rewarded best money if 3 people were present.

The reason people multibox with scanning is because it 110% fits- you scan with one while the other waits, then you wait with the scanner while the other fights/loots. If you made that multbox go from one person to two- what the heck is the odd man out at each stage going to do? They're basically working together, but they'll never see each other. These changes with picking up loot are basically an empty gimmick to give the scanner something to help with in site- but since there are no rats why do we even need a second person to help clear?

It's been said before- lets say it again- the profession sites are CLEARLY solo work. DED sites are where teamwork should be encouraged not who can fly a tengu/fit deadspace mods.


I've of course left something out: scanning in wormholes.

THIS is how you manage teamwork in scanning. It blows my mind odyssey has gone so far from the roots of the game. Wormholes are PERFECT.

Scanner: Lots of sigs in one system that need to be scanned down and monitored.
Shooters: Anoms while the scanner scans, then profession sites (if you're in a worthy c-level).

If ccp really wanted people to work together in the scanning department they would make DED sites operate like sleeper c5+ sites. But that change would take all of a month to enact, wouldn't give anyone anything new and shiny, and that's all people want anymore right?