Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You use 3x sentry drones for the megathron in that comparison? If not, you probably should.

First, you've already admitted that you don't PvP and you're terrible at it, so why are you pretending to know anything about it? Secondly, the fourth magnetic field stabilizer really does not add much DPS, it just takes up a lot of CPU, which is the whole point. And as I already said, you can dual prop the Mega after the CPU buff (WITH RAILS - for whatever reason you would want to do that), and dual propping sorta kinda takes a lot of CPU you know (125 for MWD/AB easy, 152 for MWD/MJD harder) and still fits two 1600s, 3 mag stabs, a DCU II, EANM II, TE II, and with plenty of powergrid for some range rigs (You completely wasted the rigs on your Mega by giving it Burst and Collision with 3 mag stabs, it's funny)

Also, your argument flew out the window when you put a reactor control unit on the Rokh. The two fits don't even compare. You have a Megathron with three Targeting range SeBos engaging at 41km with Antimatter (lul guyz I can snip?) and a Rokh engaging at 54km. I honestly have no idea what you're trying to show here, but I went ahead and made your fits better based off of your "let's snipe at close range" idea of sniping and made the Megathron more comparable to the Rokh which you are apparently incapable of doing:

[Megathron, MegaWhat?]

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I

vs.

[Rokh, Rokh fit]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Comparison with bold showing that it beats the other ship in that aspect:
Megathron: 634.5 DPS, 50.8km optimal range, .019 tracking, 400 sig, 388 scan res (3.3s cruiser lock), 968 m/s, 87.5k EHP (lower after Odyssey due to attack role)
Rokh: 517 DPS, 62.1km optimal range, .0126 tracking, 603 sig, 150 scan res (8.6s cruiser lock), 783 m/s, 128k EHP (somewhat lower after Odyssey due to losing 5% resists across the board)

The Megathron does better DPS with significantly faster locking speed, and goes 200 m/s faster, at the cost of slightly reduced range and it doesn't get the same tank. Although I don't know where in the galaxy you intend on using these for sniping, but hey. I gave you what you wanted.

Edit: Roime you beat me to it.

1) There is plenty of room to make a viable Railgun fitting
2) You forewent EHP, which you were so incredibly concerned about (temporarily), for ~30 DPS in those rigs. Because of stacking penalties, the rigs were pretty wasteful. And my Megathron was still going faster than your "so much better" Rokh, sooooooo yeah. And speed isn't nearly as important on the railgun side as it is on the Blaster side.
3) See point 1.
4) Using a Meta 4 MWD doesn't change anything but powergrid, which the Megathron actually has plenty of.


Actually, here, let me give you math, because Roime's fit can actually go full on T2 (and swap the ANP for another EANM):

787.5 - (55.5 * 7) - (33 * 2) - (35 *2) - (30 * 3) - 75 - 10 - (36 *2) - 24 = 1 CPU leftover
Total CPU - Guns - 1600mm IIs - T2 TCs - Mag Stab IIs and DC II - MWD II - SeBo II - EANM IIs - Reactive Hardener

The only thing it fits that isn't T2 is a Reactive Armor Hardener, which doesn't have a T2 variant yet. And you could easily drop one TC to Meta 4 to pick up the extra CPU that would be needed for a T2 version if there is ever one introduced.

And in case you didn't notice, while complaining about me putting armor rigs on my 'Thron, then touting about how Roime's "managed to be better", he also put armor rigs on his, you must have missed that. And I will not disagree that his looks slightly more attractive than mine in certain areas. Mine had 50 more DPS in gank than his at a big cost in tank, and 110 more DPS in gank than yours (and mine beat yours in EHP )

funny you worry about overlap with slot layout on gallente ships, when all amarr ships cruisers and battleships have the exact same slot layout

5/3/6 for turret cruisers (faction has 5/3/7)
8/4/7 for turret battleships (faction has 8/4/8)

I'm just going to take a moment to recognize that my facepalm did indeed go right through my face and out the other side just now. I hopped on SiSi to check and sure enough, I have a single CPU implant. Completely forgot that I got podded last weekend on TQ and not SiSi which I hadn't thought about because I've spent a lot more time on SiSi with the battleships.

So, my apologies. I still think Torp is whining too much and I still feel the Megathron has a good amount of CPU at 750, though it is indeed a lot less than I tricked myself into believing. 600 base CPU is what most of us were after for it in the first place.

I'm really not quite sure why this thread is still going...

Tthe Hyperion and Megathron are now in a superb place, particularly now with the extra CPU on the Megathron which just means I'm more in love with it than ever over the last 9 years. The Hyperion is incredibly versatile, dream to fit, and you can ignore the rep bonus completely and still have a superb platform for fleets. The Dominix is looking pretty sweet too, granted drones need an overhaul, but all in good time.

Oh and to top it off, they aren't breaking the Navy versions - they are getting better still.

Mission accomplished.

Have bolded the main reason why to put a lower version of a weapon given. The problem of this situation is that now, in the current state to promote the group-activities in all the areas of the game, CCP would persuade to change a solo-Megathron with 350's to hit faster frigs to change to a 2-gang with one fast frig that have point AND A WEB and then the Mega with 425's. The only reason you would put 350's in a solo-PVP scenario is in a low-sec area where you know there are, in normal situations, smaller and faster ships. But we are covering the performance of BS's with ships of the same size.

The problem as it seems to me, for all BS, is that you're trying to create something with attack battleships that just doesn't work. Faster ships are the smaller ships, as the ships gain in size they become slower, more tanked and able to apply better damage to longer ranges.

So an attempt to create these divisions within battleships, without allowing the battleships to step on the toes of their smaller cousins, becomes essentially futile outside of a bs vs bs scenario. And this scenario is so rare as to be discounted at this point in eve's evolution.

When your potential performance envelope constantly shrinks you reach the current point where the real differences become moot next to the % differences. A speed of 900m/s vs 1000m/s is redundant, for example, when all of the smaller ships likely to be present in even a small fight will outpace you massively. BC and below will all be able to catch and tackle you. Tackle then removes your speed advantage (something that isn't true in real life). Yet you remain unable to apply your damage realistically in a great number of cases and lose what should be your biggest advantage. Even drones are largely ineffective against the new rebalanced t1 frigates and unlikely to destroy the tackler fast enough for an escape.

All other aspects scale up with ship size giving an unlimited space to progress into, speed is the one exception. It's a very poor balancing mechanic at this ship level, I believe, despite being the most powerful attribute at smaller ship classes.

"What's the advantage other than (makes a relatively long list of advantages)"

Well, basically everything you mentioned. DPS isn't the end all be all number, luckily. The biggest reasons people will fit smaller guns are increased tracking speed and decreased fitting. It allows them to keep the rest of their ship's fitting at a high point at the cost of some on paper DPS. Sometimes, however, in practice the applied DPS will be nearly the same as with the next size up guns, simply because while Neutron Blaster Cannons offer the highest amount of DPS in a number, Ion Blaster Cannons are less likely to make your effective DPS "0" by missing. And even moreso for Electrons.

This advantage holds more value on gun wielding battleships, as the higher tracking they have, the better capabilities they have to fend off enemy frigates or speed/sig tanking cruisers. As with anything else in EVE, it's hard for someone to really tell you what "the best" way to fit your ship is. There are good, solid, and proved ways. But everyone encounters different experiences, etc. Granted, while "the best" ships and fits are really obscure and in large part situational and opinionated, there are indeed bad fits. Hah.

A weapon tiercide would be kind of intersting. We all know it'd be good for the medium class long range turrets, boy are they awful. However, most of the time people just fit the biggest guns because it's a standard practice, and provided you're not missing they do indeed offer the greatest DPS, and by a rather enticing amount usually. And DPS, while not the end all be all, is far from unimportant.


- - -
In the interest of math porn I did a little bit of number crunching on the attack vs combat lineups (at least for Gallente) for some comparability, assuming Navigation V.

Frigate Level

---

Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity
Atron: 525m/s
Incursus: 425m/s
Micro-Warp Maximum Velocity
Atron: 3,700m/s
Incursus: 3,033m/s
Afterburning Maximum Velocity
Atron: 1,382m/s
Incursus: 1,129m/s

Atron has a 23.5% higher maximum velocity unboosted, 21.99% higher MWD boosted, and 22.4% AB boosted. So on average it's 22.63% faster than an Incursus.

Cruiser Level

---

Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity
Thorax: 300m/s
Vexor: 256m/s
Micro-Warp Maximum Velocity
Thorax: 2,028m/s
Vexor: 1,729m/s
Afterburning Maximum Velocity
Thorax: 766m/s
Vexor: 654m/s

On the cruisers, the Thorax comes ahead with increases of 17.18% base, 17.29% MWD, and 17.12% AB for an average 17.19% increase in velocity. Which is 5.44% lower than on the frigate level.

Battleship Level

---

Sub-Warp Maximum Velocity
Hyperion: 143.75m/s
Megathron: 152.5m/s

That's a 6% increase in speed on the Megathron versus the Hyperion. I don't think I even have to pull out the MWD and AB velocities to get the point across that it's hard to compare the "Attack Battleship/Combat Battleship" speeds to the Cruiser levels, let alone frigates.

Granted, both the Hyperion and the Megathron value their speeds, we can't just nerf the Hyperion's speed to make the Megathron's feel higher. At the same time, we can't increase the Megathron's speed without completely infringing on Minmatar design philosophy, making their battleships feel slow. And if we had to increase the Minmatar BS speeds, then all of a sudden the Mach would be slow. When we increase the Mach's speed, it'll be lapping Thoraxes. And when a Macharial is literally running circles around Thoraxes, we have a problem.

I don't really have any solution for the problem than to call the "attack" role for Battleships a relatively meaningless label. On the bright side, Gallente have a relatively decent option for using Railguns for the first time since the Sniperthron's glory days of old, hah. While it may not be the best choice it's not a bad one, and may work its way into fleets in a less embarrassing manner than "Well I didn't want to/can't fly a Rokh". It also gives Gallente specialized pilots a good platform for whatever they want rails for. Heck even the Hyperion can fit railguns now (kinda), dang.

This is a very very good post and highlights the "fact" that the attack role does not really fit into the battleship lineup at all.

+1 for sure