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One skybox for one region? Too little
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Demon View
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-11-04 02:05:20 UTC
What? 'Better'? How insulting! I demand to be served nothing but 'Best'!
Kyoko Sakoda
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#22 - 2011-11-04 02:10:25 UTC
Every system having a different cube map = ~5,000 x ~20 MB = ~100 GB, so no.
mkint
#23 - 2011-11-04 02:11:50 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Half wrong

Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.

The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house.

...

You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer.

Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.

Hate to burst your "know everything" bubble, but a dev said (I think in the comments thread, or maybe it was in the devblog itself) that artists have to touch up EVERY SINGLE IMAGE by hand to make it look good. Re-read the dev blog, read the dev posts in the thread (there's even a button for it on EVERY FREAKIN' forum page) and THEN come back and show your ignorance.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#24 - 2011-11-04 02:14:29 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Half wrong

Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.

The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house.

...

You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer.

Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.


Dear Sir, I recommend reading about the toys the developers play with and how inferior the common computer is when it comes to flinging massive resources around let alone putting them to good use. Then read up on the PAINFUL efforts it takes to translate best as possible what these power house computers can do into something that a netbook can run. Heres an inkling, the in house models are several thousand polygons, on client versions are less than 500 each. In house models have 200-500MB Shadowmaps PER SHIP clients deal with less than 1mb per ship.

Wouldn't surprise me if the original source models (not pictures, a nebula sized virtual model which for the complexity of the particle details and art used wouldnt surprise me if were looking at a couple million polys) for the nebulas top half a terrabyte total. You're better off taking a PNG snapshot at that point instead of forcing player who dont even have that much memory or storage space on thier computer.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Oberine Noriepa
#25 - 2011-11-04 02:23:40 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
...

You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer.

Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.

Like many posters on this forum, you feign your "knowledge" proudly.

∃
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#26 - 2011-11-04 02:25:10 UTC
At least I have reasons for knowing more about how graphics in eve are done considering I am trying to be an artist and a game developer one day so anything thats graphics related does pertique my interest as some things I learn from 3-d model rendering techniques CCP pulls off DOES indeed help with my paintings.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Oberine Noriepa
#27 - 2011-11-04 02:26:30 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
At least I have reasons for knowing more about how graphics in eve are done considering I am trying to be an artist and a game developer one day so anything thats graphics related does pertique my interest as some things I learn from 3-d model rendering techniques CCP pulls off DOES indeed help with my paintings.

Are you responding to me? I'm not quoting you. P

∃
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#28 - 2011-11-04 02:29:26 UTC
Sort of just excusing myself for explination on why I know what I know. Unlike random poster over there who does probably some home renderings which my computer takes four hours to render a decent model somone else did.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
ShadowMaster
#29 - 2011-11-04 03:56:24 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Half wrong

Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.

The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house.

...

You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer.

Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.


Not really going to argue with how misguided your knowledge is and am just going to post this here. It is a direct quote from CCP t0rfifrans posted on page 4 of the comments thread for the dev blog for the new nebula. Link to original post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=302360#post302360

CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
The cube maps ( that's the technical term for the nebula textures ) are actually hand crafted, starting with 3d generated clouds, then color-corrected and touched up by artists to remove rendering artifacts and add extra "oomhp" to the renders. Each cube map sees a considerable amount of work. So if we would have wanted more, they would have looked less cool or taken longer to produce, meaning that the artists would be tied up painting nebulas and not fixing lag.... It's always a balancing act. That said, the system we developed alongside rendering the nebulas does allow us to customize each solarsystem, and we will be making use of that in the future, for lore and such.


The important part here relating to your post is of course the first line which states "the cube maps ... are actually hand crafted" and of course this other little bit relating to the amount of work which states that "each cube map sees a considerable amount of work."

The link is there and you can read his post if you think I have edited something.

Bottom line: It is not all done by computer.

I also like the argument about how much space it would require for each system to have its own image, estimated at 100GB. Yea no thanks.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#30 - 2011-11-04 04:12:03 UTC
Not sure If I'm the one being defended or the guy is just getting burned just for being wrong. Meh... Thanks if its the former.

But yeah It would not surprise me if the source model is astronomically big on the hard drives.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
mkint
#31 - 2011-11-04 04:15:32 UTC
ShadowMaster wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Half wrong

Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.

The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house.

...

You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer.

Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.


Not really going to argue with how misguided your knowledge is and am just going to post this here. It is a direct quote from CCP t0rfifrans posted on page 4 of the comments thread for the dev blog for the new nebula. Link to original post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=302360#post302360

CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
The cube maps ( that's the technical term for the nebula textures ) are actually hand crafted, starting with 3d generated clouds, then color-corrected and touched up by artists to remove rendering artifacts and add extra "oomhp" to the renders. Each cube map sees a considerable amount of work. So if we would have wanted more, they would have looked less cool or taken longer to produce, meaning that the artists would be tied up painting nebulas and not fixing lag.... It's always a balancing act. That said, the system we developed alongside rendering the nebulas does allow us to customize each solarsystem, and we will be making use of that in the future, for lore and such.


The important part here relating to your post is of course the first line which states "the cube maps ... are actually hand crafted" and of course this other little bit relating to the amount of work which states that "each cube map sees a considerable amount of work."

The link is there and you can read his post if you think I have edited something.

Bottom line: It is not all done by computer.

I also like the argument about how much space it would require for each system to have its own image, estimated at 100GB. Yea no thanks.

You know, it makes me wonder... it sounds like they can add "customizations" of the skybox on a per system basis. I wonder if using that system to effectively add more layers to the skybox would be a way to make each system different. So the new nebulae are backdrops for the system specific variances. Now that sounds like it could be the smart solution if it ends up looking good.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2011-11-04 04:20:46 UTC
Kyoko Sakoda wrote:
Every system having a different cube map = ~5,000 x ~20 MB = ~100 GB, so no.

Actually, according to a post by CCP t0rfifrans each cubemap is actually 3MB.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=303715#post303715

5000 systems x 3 MB = 15 GB
Too much work for CCP to implement, but certainly not unimaginable. If you think otherwise, it's time to shift your EVE install away from your 2500+ floppy disks and onto something more modern.

768 constellations x 3 MB = 2.3 GB
0.4% of my notebook's hard drive.

2.3 GB installed, that is.... I don't have any numbers on what size download it will be when compressed.

An optional 2.3 GB download pack to bring different skyboxes for constellations would be excellent.

The high res packs for Crysis 2, Dragon Age 2 and Battlefield 3 are 1.7 GB, 1 GB and 1.9 GB respectively; so it's not like this kind of thing has never been done before Blink
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#33 - 2011-11-04 05:08:46 UTC
At least we didn't get Zulu's definition of "seamless".

Though I would appreciate the addition of procedurally generated aspects of systems and constellations put on top of the backdrops to make them more unique and diverse.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#34 - 2011-11-04 05:35:06 UTC
maybe one day theyll remove star gates and that background is an actual model,

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Solhild
Doomheim
#35 - 2011-11-04 06:23:55 UTC
One possible intermediate solution is to develop 'some' more skyboxes for busy regions.

Those regions that are highly populated could be given additional boxes, especially towards the edge of the region, in order to deepen immersion.

This could give the impression of passing through the cluster, especially in the case where region changes are jarring.

I'm sure that given time, more boxes will be added to targeted sections of regions but it seems a waste of dev time to do everything now.

Looking forward to the new SISI build later - sneeky suspicion that the current build contains most of the assets so hopefully it'll not be a vast download.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#36 - 2011-11-04 06:56:29 UTC
ShadowMaster wrote:
The important part here relating to your post is of course the first line which states "the cube maps ... are actually hand crafted" and of course this other little bit relating to the amount of work which states that "each cube map sees a considerable amount of work."

The link is there and you can read his post if you think I have edited something.

Bottom line: It is not all done by computer.

I also like the argument about how much space it would require for each system to have its own image, estimated at 100GB. Yea no thanks.

Back when it was announced, they claimed one per constellation. And that is easy to generate from the map data and models.

What seems to have happened is that there are artifacts in the renderings which they need to correct manually, and as such is another example of :CCP: fail rather than a requirement of manual labor in general (if they had done things right).

Also explains why they spent so long on getting the nebulas implemented, despite the outsourcing being done long ago.

Nyan
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#37 - 2011-11-04 07:05:23 UTC
Don't go into wormhole space which isn't getting updated. You'll emorage when you find out theres 10 regions all with the same background.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#38 - 2011-11-04 07:26:57 UTC
Like I said the ourtsourcing they hired only made the model nothing more. Just like the asteriod models and space garbage models all done out of house. It is pertty amazing how a third party can fail to deliver as well ccp did joke about getting a flash light back when they got the rohk done out of house for the trinity expansion.

They could have easily made a script that took a snapshot within the models at the correct locations for every star system however Design Art Director from what I gather is very rententive to detail and simply hates imperfections if it can be avoided. Id would hate to be a technical artist working for him though as everythig is just very hard to get right wtihout comprimising players graphics cards ability to tank heat.

Ill settle for one per region for now as long as they move up to one per constellation eventually.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Jagga Spikes
Spikes Chop Shop
#39 - 2011-11-04 07:38:50 UTC
considering classic EVE space is about 100 light years across, there really can't be much difference to be seen in the skybox. specific location will matter, and ever-changing difference in distance will be noticed. tho, lets see first and judge second.

personally, i'm looking forward to more patches of black.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#40 - 2011-11-04 07:40:51 UTC
.... aaaand in the end it's a HUGE improvement making a HUGE difference for sense of location, while looking comeinthepants-good.

So, win


.