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[Corp Bookmarks] Feedback and Ideas

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Faeyen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2011-11-03 16:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Faeyen
Two step wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:

I think I know what you're getting at. So basically a cloaked ship can create a bookmark near a fleet and the rest warp in there. I don't think it's that big of an issue as people can already warp to the cloaked ship anyway. Of course there could be something that I'm missing. The restriction is for server performance so having it instant isn't really up for debate anyway P


The issue is that if people are killing rats, a cloaked ship could make a corp bookmark to a wreck near the players, then a fleet could warp in on top of them.



Or you could just book mark a wreck, warp back to the k162, have the fleet jump and then sling shot them into combat. Ugh
Raid'En
#42 - 2011-11-03 16:28:25 UTC
you could even have fleets members at different positions with only one scout who BMed all the good place.
BM the entrance (if they flee here), BM the pos (put a bubble before it), BM other entrance (camp here also), Bm different spot of warp in on the grid (so you gave more security while trying to catch him/them)...
all that with the same cloaked scout, at the same time, while the fleet will never be visible before it's too late.
Potato IQ
Doomheim
#43 - 2011-11-03 16:28:52 UTC
Geldorf Drakar wrote:
That is why having a restriction on being unable to add to corp bookmarks while cloaked, or force a 10-20 min delay for corp bookmark propagation is necessary.


Go to outer planet off D-scan or jump into a neighboring system that is quite and de-cloak. Easy to get around time penalty. Could even use a cheap sacrificial cov-ops if it meant a valuable kill for fleet

Isn’t the idea to do away with this stupid need to swap/copy/paste BM’s but without making the intel gathered too easy to obtain for all? Have the time delay of 15 minutes for the likes of general corp BM’s like exits/entrances and such. For fast intel, read-only fleet folder BM’s for those quick ops

Bah. Any process that allows remote BM’s to be made available is over-powered, but any scenario would suggest there is not an easy work-around to this much needed feature
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#44 - 2011-11-03 16:38:02 UTC  |  Edited by: jonnykefka
CCP Tuxford wrote:

Asayanami Dei wrote:

  • If at all possible, subfolders in the corp-bookmarks folder would be an awesome addition.

    • If you mean Corp Places -> My Folder -> My Bookmark then yes it's already coming
    If you mean Corp Places -> My Folder -> My Subfolder -> My Bookmark then no. At least not this iteration


    What about Corp Places > Corp subfolder > Corp BM? Not defined by each person, but by the people with the appropriate roles, and in the corp BM folder?

    Other thought: If the 5-minute delay is non-negotiable for technical reasons, then there is no reason to prohibit cloakies from copying BMs to the corp folder while cloaked. I was actually looking forward to being able to share BMs while cloaked as one of the big upgrades over copying the silly things to my cargohold. Requiring us to spend the extra 5-10 seconds decloaked at a safe-spot or midwarp to drag them from our BMs to the corp folder when there's a five-minute delay before the rest of the corp will get it anyways seems pointless.

    Also, are BM folders going to become server-side by any chance? I realize I'm asking for whipped cream on an already awesome slice of cake, but if it's something you are planning to include (or if it's not on this round), we'd love to hear about it.
    Geldorf Drakar
    Hedion University
    Amarr Empire
    #45 - 2011-11-03 16:46:31 UTC
    Potato IQ wrote:
    Geldorf Drakar wrote:
    That is why having a restriction on being unable to add to corp bookmarks while cloaked, or force a 10-20 min delay for corp bookmark propagation is necessary.


    Go to outer planet off D-scan or jump into a neighboring system that is quite and de-cloak. Easy to get around time penalty. Could even use a cheap sacrificial cov-ops if it meant a valuable kill for fleet

    Isn’t the idea to do away with this stupid need to swap/copy/paste BM’s but without making the intel gathered too easy to obtain for all? Have the time delay of 15 minutes for the likes of general corp BM’s like exits/entrances and such. For fast intel, read-only fleet folder BM’s for those quick ops

    Bah. Any process that allows remote BM’s to be made available is over-powered, but any scenario would suggest there is not an easy work-around to this much needed feature




    You don't live in a wormhole, do you?


    When you say it's easy to get around the time penalty, you're not considering quiet a few things...

    A) In wormholes, if somebody has a probe out looking for new sigs as they appear... they are going to pick up your ship's sig on scan as soon as you decloak at that planet off D-scan, and they are going to run.

    B) Going to another system to move bookmarks would probably take several minutes anyways.

    C) The point is to prevent scouts from exploiting any weakness in the corp bookmark mechanics to allow them to do something they otherwise couldnt, like broadcasting a location as a bookmark to provide a fleet warpin without ever having had to move their ship. If they warp out and decloak somewhere else to move bookmarks to corp, they might as well have just warped back to the bookmark and provided a warpin, without having to decloak.

    Yea, you can get around the time delay by decloaking somewhere else, and you can get around it by warping off and then warping back to the bookmark you made without decloaking. That's not the issue. The issue is keeping somebody from creating a corp bookmark without having to put some effort and risk into their action. Preventing them from adding to corp bookmarks while cloaked forces them to decloak somewhere, or warp off and back in, risking getting caught by probes or D-Scan, or losing sight of the target and having the target warp off while they are absent, respectively, thus risking something in the endevour.

    A large delay and/or a cloak status based limitation prevents people from using corp bookmarks like on demand insta-warpins to remote targets.


    Somebody else also mentioned, if there weren't such a restriction, a scout could bookmark several locations in space, without moving at all, thereby providing his fleet a warpin to just about anywhere he chooses. IE if there are two target groups of ships, each with a wreck nearby, but otherwise separated by 500km, the scout could provide a risk-less warpin to both groups, without decloaking, and without having to move and lose eyes.
    Arskaff
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #46 - 2011-11-03 18:01:15 UTC
    Regarding the Director role:

    I understand that it is technically a nightmare to add a new role (I can only assume its because they're implemented as flags).

    I would recommend seeking a different role for this ability, since current implementation would not allow the vast majority of benefits - as seen in the eyes of a WH dweller - to take place, which would be a waste of an amazing and long expected feature.

    My humble suggestion is to consider the "Communications Officer" role instead.
    Tashanaka
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #47 - 2011-11-03 20:03:28 UTC
    Arskaff wrote:
    ... My humble suggestion is to consider the "Communications Officer" role instead.


    Good idea, Director role is too important for corp BMs.

    Circumstantial Evidence
    #48 - 2011-11-03 20:19:03 UTC
    +1 to BM folders SERVER SIDE (and market quickbar entries)
    +1 to "Communications Officer" role

    More complicated question:
    I would like an option - to see BM's *in space* when i'm on grid with them.
    Bonus points for translucent green sphere, sized to indicate the warp-in landing variation.
    Faeyen
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #49 - 2011-11-03 22:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Faeyen
    Be careful for what you wish for. Remember how we got server side fittings but we are only allowed to have 50 saved?
    CCP Tuxford
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #50 - 2011-11-03 22:14:56 UTC
    jonnykefka wrote:

    What about Corp Places > Corp subfolder > Corp BM? Not defined by each person, but by the people with the appropriate roles, and in the corp BM folder?

    Yes this is what I meant. Basically what I'm trying to say is that we can have one level of folders for both personal and corporation bookmarks.

    jonnykefka wrote:

    Other thought: If the 5-minute delay is non-negotiable for technical reasons, then there is no reason to prohibit cloakies from copying BMs to the corp folder while cloaked. I was actually looking forward to being able to share BMs while cloaked as one of the big upgrades over copying the silly things to my cargohold. Requiring us to spend the extra 5-10 seconds decloaked at a safe-spot or midwarp to drag them from our BMs to the corp folder when there's a five-minute delay before the rest of the corp will get it anyways seems pointless.

    I mentioned this whole issue of boosting scouts to a game designer and he wasn't really that stressed since we had the caching for 5 minutes (although he didn't want to commit to not being stressed about it later P). Yes making a 120km journey on going 250m/s takes 8 minutes but then again making a bookmark warping out and back in to the bookmark is way faster anyway. However the caching is 5 minutes so on average you will actually get the bookmarks 2.5 minutes later. Having this restricted by your cloaked state is very hard because, and excuse me for getting technical, the node we ask to copy the bookmarks is not the same as the one that the solar system is located on. However if needed then forcing a delay on the bookmarks to show up for other users is not that hard to do if we deem that necessary.

    jonnykefka wrote:

    Also, are BM folders going to become server-side by any chance? I realize I'm asking for whipped cream on an already awesome slice of cake, but if it's something you are planning to include (or if it's not on this round), we'd love to hear about it.

    Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.

    A lot of people have been involved in this feature. Awesome as I may be then the real thanks should go to the guy that made this a priority. I'm really just the tool.

    Note to self: Stop referring to self as a tool.

    https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates
    Tashanaka
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #51 - 2011-11-03 22:26:33 UTC
    CCP Tuxford wrote:
    ... Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.

    A lot of people have been involved in this feature. Awesome as I may be then the real thanks should go to the guy that made this a priority. I'm really just the tool.



    Ah Tux, you just made me so happy!
    Jack Dant
    The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
    #52 - 2011-11-04 00:30:51 UTC
    CCP Tuxford wrote:
    Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.

    This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred?

    What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
    Faeyen
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #53 - 2011-11-04 01:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Faeyen
    Jack Dant wrote:
    CCP Tuxford wrote:
    Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.

    This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred?


    This is not such a big deal for myself as I have a fairly simple folder system, but others rely on their bookmark folders quite heavily. I would at least say that the folders are important to them and redoing them would be a chore.
    Honsou Blackblade
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #54 - 2011-11-04 01:59:10 UTC
    This is seriously awesome for wormhole corps. No more forgetting to update the bookmark can, or forgetting to put them back.

    The ability to ADD bookmarks could be a GLOBAL role, but only a higher level of access could move/remove them. This would help prevent in corp spies who delete bookmarks that you need, as well as give enough access that any corp member can add the bookmark they need.
    Besides, you all date your bookmarks.... right? Right....?
    Faeyen
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #55 - 2011-11-04 02:06:08 UTC
    Honsou Blackblade wrote:
    This is seriously awesome for wormhole corps. No more forgetting to update the bookmark can, or forgetting to put them back.

    The ability to ADD bookmarks could be a GLOBAL role, but only a higher level of access could move/remove them. This would help prevent in corp spies who delete bookmarks that you need, as well as give enough access that any corp member can add the bookmark they need.
    Besides, you all date your bookmarks.... right? Right....?


    Well we only date the h-t bookmarks (home-static) and the sites that spawn at home.Smile
    Sassums
    Dark Venture Corporation
    Kitchen Sinkhole
    #56 - 2011-11-04 03:27:53 UTC
    Would it be hard to implement an Alliance Wide BM system?

    Many of us in WH space, share the same system with the alliance, it would make it a lot easier to run ops with alliance wide BM's
    Yvan Ratamnim
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #57 - 2011-11-04 04:00:50 UTC
    CCP Tuxford and the other devs involved ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You just made dealing with JB networks so much better than having to copy bmarks constantly....


    Also what sassums said, nullsec wud like the alliance bookmarks as well... i mean its not a huge deal, alliance now will just give each corp the needed bookmarks for them to use as corp bookmarks, but alliance bookmarks would rock.
    Yvan Ratamnim
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #58 - 2011-11-04 04:01:49 UTC
    Any chance of getting bookmarks in overview/space possible? i know it was on the todo list but while were talking about bookmarks i figure i'd ask as it would be so helpful
    Circumstantial Evidence
    #59 - 2011-11-04 06:53:33 UTC
    Sassums wrote:
    Would it be hard to implement an Alliance Wide BM system?Many of us in WH space, share the same system with the alliance, it would make it a lot easier to run ops with alliance wide BM's
    Oh yes, would be nice to set a SCOPE for each BM: personal, corp, alliance. The alliance executor corp could act as the repository for BM's saved and "scoped" to alliance by the player. If a corp that did not save and set "scope" for a BM left alliance, that corp would no longer have access to the executor corp BM repository.
    Floydd Heywood
    Doomheim
    #60 - 2011-11-04 08:46:41 UTC
    Two step wrote:
    The issue is that if people are killing rats, a cloaked ship could make a corp bookmark to a wreck near the players, then a fleet could warp in on top of them.


    I'd actually like that. It's a big change, yes, but not a bad one imho. Why shouldn't a scout be able to transmit something like: "I am in system J123456 and the target is at coordinates 265,452,685. Get him!" (And instant transmissions are obviously possible, since we can chat with anyone in the universe no matter where they are :-p)

    Ok, maybe that would make scouting too easy and thus boring, so I can live with the proposed changes just as well.

    One thing that will definitely become a lot easier: Scouts scanning in high/low for wormholes with targets in them. As it is now, the scout has to give the BM to any wormhole he finds to a corpmate before he goes in. So that if the wormhole contains targets he doesn't have to get out again to lead the fleet in, thereby doubling the risk of being seen. With the change he can just make corp BMs if the found system is worthwile. The delay won't matter because the fleet will need a few minutes to get to the entrance anyway.