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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#941 - 2013-05-17 12:26:41 UTC
Wouldn't mind the geddon getting another turrret.

/wishful thinking
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#942 - 2013-05-17 12:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


well theres no reason to nerf the dronebay all the way maybe the same bay as the Hype has.
Oh and there is no point in flying the navy mega anyway with the navy domi about and for a little more isk a vindi or kronos.
The navy mega is just too similar to too many ships it needs a USP.


I'd be all for the navy geddon losing it's +200 and getting the 175 m3 it use to have. As for there being no point in the mega because of the domi? That one I simply do not get, domi has very minimal turret dps, mega on the other hand has the highest turret dps of the bunch So I don't really see how the two are comparable outside of overly simplified eft dps values.

About the kronos or vindi costing a "little" more isk than a navy mega... That just flat out wrong. Navy mega is around 450m, kronos and vindi are well over 1b. I'd call that quite a bit more.

Overall What I'd like to see for the navy mega is a swap in "role" with the navy domi. The nmega should be the combat one imo and the navy domi the attack. The domi has a better slot layout for a "fast" bs anyway, the navy mega is just going to stack 2-3 plates +3x trimarks and lose any mobility advantage it had over the others.


Navy domi has 6 bonused turrets plenty of turret dps there it can out dps a navy mega when drones are combined.

Well the price of Navy mega will increase somewhat and the other two will get buffs when there rebalance comes along.
Navy mega is at around 515mil and on the rise .. Kronos is around 800mil and the price of the 2 will come closer.

The answer to fix the navy mega is too make it shield tanked too some extent so it will have a USP over the others.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#943 - 2013-05-17 12:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Altimo
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:

Sorry, I should have said - I was talking buffer tanks for small gang work with logis.


A buffer tanked typhoon will work better than a TFI because it has more raw damage output, a larger drone bay to assist, bonused missiles to assist with whatever your doing as well, it also has more speed and more agility, I just tested the thing on sisi, and I don't know about you, but I had no problems with tracking.

Quote:

Because the TFI need not be paper tanked. Note - it's faster than a shield Mael when fitted with two plates.

As the previous poster said, it beats a snail, and if you buffer tank the tempest, it might be a bit faster than a mael but slower than a typhoon. for 500 mill tell me why I should even invest in this ship? I could buy one right now, but there's no incentive for me to do so.

Quote:

Funny, my EFT testing with a all-V pilot showed a need to fit for extra PG when using Arty.


I just stated in my post that I needed 1 pg mod to assist with pg when using 1400's but not when using AC's.

Quote:

If you don't care about tank, you can get a lot of DPS from a TFI too.


I can get more dps from a maelstrom, and still retain a decent tank, and over all speed. What does the tempest do?

Quote:

Which fleet BS is a better AC brawler? It's not the Typhoon FI.


The typhoon is the better brawler in general, its faster, has more dps, and has more agility, and has drones, and more drones, I can't fathom why you think the Tempest fleet issue is a better brawler. The AC's on the typhoon have extra support to aid them in their damage.

Oh since we are gonna spend 500 mill on a ship, why don't I just get a sleipnir, where I can get just as much dps, better tank, and way better speed/agility. Seriously, have you even looked at these numbers? Even the regular tempest lacks anything special about it, that's what everyone is trying to get at. It might be slightly faster as an attacker, but its still outperformed by every other battleship.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#944 - 2013-05-17 13:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:

oh wow your faster then a ship which is beaten by a dead snail in terms of speed

...not to mention if we go there there exist ships as fast(actually slow) that are better then the TFI so it has no advantage (speed) left to make it viable.

So, the problem is that the Tempest FI is slow because there are two battleships that are faster (Typhoon FI, Machariel), and two that are the same speed (Typhoon, Megathron NI)? I grant you that with enough armour stacked on it the Tempest FI might become slower than a shield tanked Megathron (with four mids - seems an unlikely choice) or Vindicator.

If the Tempest FI is too slow, then so is every other battleship except perhaps the Machariel. I suggest that you make your case for all battleships to get a speed boost, and probably the slower battlecruisers as well. If this isn't what you want, then perhaps you'd like to explain why the Tempest FI is a special snowflake that gets to go faster than every other battleship, including all the attack battleships.



your twisting my words to make your own flawed argument look good.

you said if you fit 2x 1600 to tempest the stats would be fine cause its still faster as...etc
which is wrong as i pointed out cause then its lost one of its strengths just for the sake of beeing acceptable in terms of dmg/tank ratio while the mealstroem is good in its role without sacrificeing a strengh.
so your argument is not only invalid its just plain ignorant.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#945 - 2013-05-17 13:50:14 UTC
Altimo wrote:

The typhoon is the better brawler in general, its faster, has more dps, and has more agility, and has drones, and more drones, I can't fathom why you think the Tempest fleet issue is a better brawler. The AC's on the typhoon have extra support to aid them in their damage.

Unless you mean the Typhoon Fleet Issue, they don't - the Odyssey Typhoon has no gun bonuses.
Quote:

Oh since we are gonna spend 500 mill on a ship, why don't I just get a sleipnir, where I can get just as much dps, better tank, and way better speed/agility. Seriously, have you even looked at these numbers? Even the regular tempest lacks anything special about it, that's what everyone is trying to get at. It might be slightly faster as an attacker, but its still outperformed by every other battleship.
Sleipnirs are a problem when compared to pretty much any brawling BS - they're stupid good. Again, don't confuse problems with battleships as a class with problems of individual hulls.

Again - the Typhoon is not faster than the 'Pest FI (in fact, with the same tank, it's faster). A 'Phoon FI is, but at no point have you said 'Typhoon fleet Issue'. The Typhoon is also not significantly more agile, has a worse tank, can't fit anything at all power hungry into that utility high without having to fit a CPU and probably PG mod if it's armed with Torps, whereas an AC 'Pest FI can fit two heavy neuts without trouble. The 'Phoon's Torps obviously give it nice even DPS projection across their full range, but that range is short, and while Javelins are nice at 30km they are not at all useful past that.

I simply don't see where this 'worse than the Typhoon' is coming from. 'Horribly cost inefficient' I can see, but generally one isn't buying a faction battleship with an eye to cost efficiency.

Now, I will cheerfully agree that a CM Typhoon is a better long range ship than a 'Pest FI mounting arty, aside from alpha, but that's because cruise missiles are the new hotness and because arty's DPS kinda sucks right now.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#946 - 2013-05-17 13:54:36 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Soo... Pretty much looks like Tempest fleet issues needs a buff and the scorpion navy issues and Phoon fleet issue need nerfs... Other than that, most things look pretty good. The extra +200 Drone bay on the geddon needs to be removed asap tho, makes no ******* sense at all... There is really no point in flying a navy mega with the navy geddon the way it is now.

I do not really see how navy scorpion would be in need of nerf, it gets a good tank and in turn it is the slowest and has highest signature radius of them all. It's dps isn't that great either, it has about 1 sentry worth of more dps than Raven.
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#947 - 2013-05-17 14:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Altimo
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:


Again - the Typhoon is not faster than the 'Pest FI (in fact, with the same tank, it's faster). A 'Phoon FI is, but at no point have you said 'Typhoon fleet Issue'. The Typhoon is also not significantly more agile, has a worse tank, can't fit anything at all power hungry into that utility high without having to fit a CPU and probably PG mod if it's armed with Torps, whereas an AC 'Pest FI can fit two heavy neuts without trouble. The 'Phoon's Torps obviously give it nice even DPS projection across their full range, but that range is short, and while Javelins are nice at 30km they are not at all useful past that.

I simply don't see where this 'worse than the Typhoon' is coming from. 'Horribly cost inefficient' I can see, but generally one isn't buying a faction battleship with an eye to cost efficiency.

Now, I will cheerfully agree that a CM Typhoon is a better long range ship than a 'Pest FI mounting arty, aside from alpha, but that's because cruise missiles are the new hotness and because arty's DPS kinda sucks right now.


I'm not confusing anything, you seem to be dillusional about the pest, so I'll repeat it again, the typhoon fleet issue IS faster then the tempest fleet issue and and is more agile, and is all around a better brawler, Missiles, AC's, Can either be a good shield or armor buffer, and I had no issues in fitting it.

I had assumed that when I mentioned the typhoon fleet issue I was comparing the ships, then I brought the sleipnir up because it is a fantastic ship, is it over powered? Not really, the tempest is just underpowered, both the fleet issue, and the regular tempest. You keep on ranting about fittings but I have no idea what skills you have, but I lol fitted a Typhoon fleet issue like this.

with my skills on sisi here goes.

Hi 6x800 repeating AC 2, 2x CM 2

Med- 2x Large Shield Extender 2, 2x Invul field II 1x Republic fleet 100mn afterburner.

Low- 3x gyros 1x TE2 1x DCU2 2x BCU 2

Rigs- 1xem 1xtherm 1x Large Projectile Ambit Extension I (Increases fall off)

Drones - 5 berserker t2 and 5 vespa ecm drones

Stats, 89k buffer, 1323 dps, 465 MS with afterburner on. I had no problems hitting frigates at 30km and applying my damage with just projectiles. This is just a lol wtf tank damage fit, I'm not even trying and I can get these kinds of results. How the **** is a tempest supposed to be better than this? Tell me I'm curious, the options you can do with the typhoon are lightyears ahead of the tempest. Show me how exactly the tempest can be fit to beat a typhoon in a brawl.
Meghel
SilfMeg Mining and Transportation Co
#948 - 2013-05-17 14:14:48 UTC
ARMAGEDDON NAVY ISSUE

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+200)

Ok, whats with the huge dronebay? Not even the Typhoon has this size of Drone bay.

I think this is a mistake. It can now carry loads of drones.
Were the plans to make it a Drone Carrier first?

SCORPION NAVY ISSUE
Looks strong but not too strong.
Could use a bit more Drone Bay.


TEMPEST FLEET ISSUE

This ship is quite underwhelming compared to the Typhoon.
Typhoon has a 7.5% ROF bonus compared to the 5% ROF of the Tempest.
Thats 12.5% more ROF from gun-based Typhoon.

Of course, the Tempest has a Damage Bonus of 5%/level but the 12.5% ROF Bonus (at level 5) of the Typhoon makes up quite well for this.

In Slots, they are the same. (8/5/7)
The Tempest is a bit Tougher but the Typhoon a bit Faster/Smaller SIgnature.
The Tempest also has 4 Missile Slots. This should be reduced to 2 at the most.

-

I think a second look on the Tempest is needed
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#949 - 2013-05-17 14:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Oramara
Altimo wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:


Again - the Typhoon is not faster than the 'Pest FI (in fact, with the same tank, it's faster). A 'Phoon FI is, but at no point have you said 'Typhoon fleet Issue'. The Typhoon is also not significantly more agile, has a worse tank, can't fit anything at all power hungry into that utility high without having to fit a CPU and probably PG mod if it's armed with Torps, whereas an AC 'Pest FI can fit two heavy neuts without trouble. The 'Phoon's Torps obviously give it nice even DPS projection across their full range, but that range is short, and while Javelins are nice at 30km they are not at all useful past that.

I simply don't see where this 'worse than the Typhoon' is coming from. 'Horribly cost inefficient' I can see, but generally one isn't buying a faction battleship with an eye to cost efficiency.

Now, I will cheerfully agree that a CM Typhoon is a better long range ship than a 'Pest FI mounting arty, aside from alpha, but that's because cruise missiles are the new hotness and because arty's DPS kinda sucks right now.


I'm not confusing anything, you seem to be dillusional about the pest, so I'll repeat it again, the typhoon fleet issue IS faster then the tempest fleet issue and and is more agile, and is all around a better brawler, Missiles, AC's, Can either be a good shield or armor buffer, and I had no issues in fitting it.

I had assumed that when I mentioned the typhoon fleet issue I was comparing the ships, then I brought the sleipnir up because it is a fantastic ship, is it over powered? Not really, the tempest is just underpowered, both the fleet issue, and the regular tempest. You keep on ranting about fittings but I have no idea what skills you have, but I lol fitted a Typhoon fleet issue like this.

with my skills on sisi here goes.

Hi 6x800 repeating AC 2, 2x CM 2

Med- 2x Large Shield Extender 2, 2x Invul field II 1x Republic fleet 100mn afterburner.

Low- 3x gyros 1x TE2 1x DCU2 2x BCU 2

Rigs- 1xem 1xtherm 1x Large Projectile Ambit Extension I (Increases fall off)

Drones - 5 berserker t2 and 5 vespa ecm drones

Stats, 89k buffer, 1323 dps, 465 MS with afterburner on. I had no problems hitting frigates at 30km and applying my damage with just projectiles. This is just a lol wtf tank damage fit, I'm not even trying and I can get these kinds of results. How the **** is a tempest supposed to be better than this? Tell me I'm curious, the options you can do with the typhoon are lightyears ahead of the tempest. Show me how exactly the tempest can be fit to beat a typhoon in a brawl.

And not to mention the element of surprise not knowing what to expect of it. It can be a huge advantage.
Ronon Romanov
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#950 - 2013-05-17 14:35:55 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Ronon Romanov wrote:
I think battleships need more shields, more armor and more hull. If you do to comparaison with navy battlecruiser :

Navy Brutix, Standard Mega and Navy Mega >

Navy Brutix :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 5250 / 6750 / 7125

Standard Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500

Navy Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 9500(-461) / 10500(-750)


Hmmm, ok, No body see something wrong here ?

That issue has been brought out but devs are ignoring now the other threads.

Heck, battleships feel like tier 4 bc's...


Yep, i have the same feeling.

Drunken Bum wrote:

Thats hose ****. I wish they werent even releasing navy BCs. They're not something we need. People are too distracted by new fun exciting things to see the problems those ships will create.


Yep you're right.

This is my suggestion for DEVs :

Standard Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000 / 9500/ 10500

Navy Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 12000 / 12500 / 13500


Yep, this simple but i think a Standard BS have to be really more resilient than a Navy BC and just buff shield/armor/hull will do the job just fine. And if they buff standard issue, they have to buff Navy issue in the process. With those news ships, i lost the feeling to fly a massive ship (navy mega) when a see a navy brutix can be ...

Sorry, i don't have suggestion for other BS, i'm a gallente and megathron pilot Blink But i'm sure devs will find something to do.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#951 - 2013-05-17 14:51:03 UTC
Hey guys

Posting to let you know that we are going to make two small adjustments to the Armageddon Navy Issue.
  • First, we're going to lower the drone bay to 200m3. We gave it the giant bay as a way to connect it to the new tech 1 Geddon, but as you've pointed out, it just seems weird.
  • Second, we're going to lower the signature radius of the Armageddon to 400. The original increase was because of trying pull a lot of the core metrics closer together for the ships within a role (like I did with sensor strength or lock range etc) but in this case it was a totally unnecessary nerf to performance when nothing else on the ship was changing substantially.

    • The OP will be updated to reflect these changes.

    @ccp_rise
    Aeril Malkyre
    Knights of the Ouroboros
    #952 - 2013-05-17 14:55:42 UTC
    Off the cuff: would a 7th turret and about 20000 PWG raise the Fleet Tempest from obscurity? Would make it the strong projectile platform it's claiming to be. Would allow for a full rack of 1200's at max skills, if I'm doing my math right.

    As it stands the Typhoon is outclassing it at... well, just about everything.
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #953 - 2013-05-17 15:02:40 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hey guys

    Posting to let you know that we are going to make two small adjustments to the Armageddon Navy Issue.
  • First, we're going to lower the drone bay to 200m3. We gave it the giant bay as a way to connect it to the new tech 1 Geddon, but as you've pointed out, it just seems weird.
  • Second, we're going to lower the signature radius of the Armageddon to 400. The original increase was because of trying pull a lot of the core metrics closer together for the ships within a role (like I did with sensor strength or lock range etc) but in this case it was a totally unnecessary nerf to performance when nothing else on the ship was changing substantially.

    • The OP will be updated to reflect these changes.


    Im hoping you have some bigger changes coming for the tempest and megathron?

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Liang Nuren
    No Salvation
    Divine Damnation
    #954 - 2013-05-17 15:04:25 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hey guys

    Posting to let you know that we are going to make two small adjustments to the Armageddon Navy Issue.
  • First, we're going to lower the drone bay to 200m3. We gave it the giant bay as a way to connect it to the new tech 1 Geddon, but as you've pointed out, it just seems weird.
  • Second, we're going to lower the signature radius of the Armageddon to 400. The original increase was because of trying pull a lot of the core metrics closer together for the ships within a role (like I did with sensor strength or lock range etc) but in this case it was a totally unnecessary nerf to performance when nothing else on the ship was changing substantially.

    • The OP will be updated to reflect these changes.


    I highly approve of these modifications. Thanks!

    -Liang

    I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #955 - 2013-05-17 15:40:27 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hey guys

    Posting to let you know that we are going to make two small adjustments to the Armageddon Navy Issue.
  • First, we're going to lower the drone bay to 200m3. We gave it the giant bay as a way to connect it to the new tech 1 Geddon, but as you've pointed out, it just seems weird.
  • Second, we're going to lower the signature radius of the Armageddon to 400. The original increase was because of trying pull a lot of the core metrics closer together for the ships within a role (like I did with sensor strength or lock range etc) but in this case it was a totally unnecessary nerf to performance when nothing else on the ship was changing substantially.

    • The OP will be updated to reflect these changes.


    200 is still loads.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #956 - 2013-05-17 15:44:45 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hey guys

    Posting to let you know that we are going to make two small adjustments to the Armageddon Navy Issue.
  • First, we're going to lower the drone bay to 200m3. We gave it the giant bay as a way to connect it to the new tech 1 Geddon, but as you've pointed out, it just seems weird.
  • Second, we're going to lower the signature radius of the Armageddon to 400. The original increase was because of trying pull a lot of the core metrics closer together for the ships within a role (like I did with sensor strength or lock range etc) but in this case it was a totally unnecessary nerf to performance when nothing else on the ship was changing substantially.

    • The OP will be updated to reflect these changes.


    200 is still loads.


    200 is great its still a batmobile...

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Mooddy
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #957 - 2013-05-17 16:06:03 UTC
    Quote:
    Raven:
    Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
    +5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius


    I don't understand how this can be a bonus, (srry, noob) doesn't it make it even harder to hit smaller targets?
    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #958 - 2013-05-17 16:25:36 UTC
    Mooddy wrote:
    Quote:
    Raven:
    Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
    +5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius


    I don't understand how this can be a bonus, (srry, noob) doesn't it make it even harder to hit smaller targets?


    No, it means it's easier to hit smaller targets.


    From the EVE Uni wiki:

    Quote:
    If the target's signature radius is smaller than the missile's explosion radius, there will be a penalty to the missile's damage. There is no damage bonus when the target's signature radius is larger than the missile's explosion radius, however -- this is mostly a mechanism to make sure that the missiles used by large ships aren't too effective against small ships.


    If the target's velocity is higher than the missile's explosion velocity there will be a penalty to the missile's damage. Again, there is no damage bonus when the target's velocity is lower than the missile's explosion velocity.
    Mooddy
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #959 - 2013-05-17 16:28:21 UTC
    so, ccp risen meant that the explosion radius gets smaller?
    Johnson Oramara
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #960 - 2013-05-17 16:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Oramara
    Mooddy wrote:
    Quote:
    Raven:
    Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
    +5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius


    I don't understand how this can be a bonus, (srry, noob) doesn't it make it even harder to hit smaller targets?

    It means that you have almost one free target painter which is always on. But many of us would rather get the choice to choose the fitting ourselves and get the damage bonus instead and fitting tp's etc as we need.

    New CNR just allows slightly more tanked Raven missile dps for those that are lazy to turn on target painters...