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Details and update on the Ice Anomaly design

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Gustavus Adolphus
Croatoan Enterprises
#221 - 2013-05-16 10:17:01 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Pom Agrant wrote:
Actually, it is a huge lack of ice. The anoms will be mined out immediately every time they spawn. We will not be able to have a mining op for one day on the weekend and get all of the ice we need for one month - it won't be there. Instead, we will have to mine a little bit at a time, every day, and probably move to other systems to find ice that hasn't been mined out.

The main issue I see is the total amount of ice available in the whole Eve universe. It is not enough to fuel all of the POSs and capitals in the game at the moment. Imagine the huge effect on the economy and movements in nullsec, if there simply is not enough fuel for everything, regardless of price.



Are you saying that instead of supplying your empire with 1 belt, for one weekend a month, you have to use your space daily? And possibly take more space? Fugging CCP, those MONSTERS


Who the hell runs corp ice mining ops anyways. Fuel is cheap, it's a waste of time.



I mean, if you have 40 accounts mining dark glitter then I guess ~you go girl~ but otherwise it's kind of dumb


That's why its called emergent gameplay, if everyone's gameplay only mirrored yours, Eve would be a very boring place.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2013-05-16 11:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Danni stark wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Who the hell runs corp ice mining ops anyways. Fuel is cheap, it's a waste of time.

I mean, if you have 40 accounts mining dark glitter then I guess ~you go girl~ but otherwise it's kind of dumb


at the moment, nobody probably does.

however, at current prices when odyssey hits ice will be worth more isk/hour than ore so every one who does any kind of mining activity will be all over those belts like carrion crows.

granted 50m/hour in an ice anom isn't quite as good as the what, 60-80m you can get in a hub with a talos right now? but how viable is that going to be after the changes to hubs? not to mention, an ice miner will set you back exactly 1 plex and an empty character slot, large t2 blasters take almost twice as long to train for on their own, before you consider the hull, the support skills etc.

i think interesting things will happen in odyssey, and i like it.



CNR will probably be the new talos. I don't have the PYFA files to theorycraft anything, but hubs are still likely going to be better than mining. It's just that easymode blaster boats are mostly dead. But don't forget that the skills to run hubs directly translate to actually shooting people.

Another thing to remember is that ice products don't really compress. There's Rorqual ice compression, but that's already a joke. And the patch is going to make it twice as irrelevant.
So relative to ore mining (or ratting, heh) it costs tons to get the product to market. Stront is literally unprofitable to sell, and heavy water just barely makes a profit. I cba to grab the numbers again, but transportation takes off something like 15% of the value of 0.0 ice mining (assuming you're not JFing things around yourself, and then it just takes forever).


e: Unless you sell it at your local 0.0 market hub, and glhf moving any real amount of product doing that.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2013-05-16 11:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Gustavus Adolphus wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Pom Agrant wrote:
Actually, it is a huge lack of ice. The anoms will be mined out immediately every time they spawn. We will not be able to have a mining op for one day on the weekend and get all of the ice we need for one month - it won't be there. Instead, we will have to mine a little bit at a time, every day, and probably move to other systems to find ice that hasn't been mined out.

The main issue I see is the total amount of ice available in the whole Eve universe. It is not enough to fuel all of the POSs and capitals in the game at the moment. Imagine the huge effect on the economy and movements in nullsec, if there simply is not enough fuel for everything, regardless of price.



Are you saying that instead of supplying your empire with 1 belt, for one weekend a month, you have to use your space daily? And possibly take more space? Fugging CCP, those MONSTERS


Who the hell runs corp ice mining ops anyways. Fuel is cheap, it's a waste of time.



I mean, if you have 40 accounts mining dark glitter then I guess ~you go girl~ but otherwise it's kind of dumb


That's why its called emergent gameplay, if everyone's gameplay only mirrored yours, Eve would be a very boring place.


So you don't disagree that ~corp mining ops~ are a terrible misuse of a corp's manpower?



e: Hey, gotta make your CEO rich somehow.
Danni stark
#224 - 2013-05-16 12:17:53 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
CNR will probably be the new talos. I don't have the PYFA files to theorycraft anything, but hubs are still likely going to be better than mining. It's just that easymode blaster boats are mostly dead. But don't forget that the skills to run hubs directly translate to actually shooting people.

Another thing to remember is that ice products don't really compress. There's Rorqual ice compression, but that's already a joke. And the patch is going to make it twice as irrelevant.
So relative to ore mining (or ratting, heh) it costs tons to get the product to market. Stront is literally unprofitable to sell, and heavy water just barely makes a profit. I cba to grab the numbers again, but transportation takes off something like 15% of the value of 0.0 ice mining (assuming you're not JFing things around yourself, and then it just takes forever).


e: Unless you sell it at your local 0.0 market hub, and glhf moving any real amount of product doing that.


while it's true about skills for shooting people; but 1 plex will get you in to a retriever with max yield (for a retriever, which is only 5% less than a mackinaw) which is ~150 blocks of ice per hour with rorq boosts. the joys of dual training!

there is always the option to refine and sell it in the system you mine it in, then let other people absorb the cost of hauling it around. i mean, i doubt they want to use it in the same system as the local market hub anyway.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Gustavus Adolphus
Croatoan Enterprises
#225 - 2013-05-16 14:27:33 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Gustavus Adolphus wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Pom Agrant wrote:
Actually, it is a huge lack of ice. The anoms will be mined out immediately every time they spawn. We will not be able to have a mining op for one day on the weekend and get all of the ice we need for one month - it won't be there. Instead, we will have to mine a little bit at a time, every day, and probably move to other systems to find ice that hasn't been mined out.

The main issue I see is the total amount of ice available in the whole Eve universe. It is not enough to fuel all of the POSs and capitals in the game at the moment. Imagine the huge effect on the economy and movements in nullsec, if there simply is not enough fuel for everything, regardless of price.



Are you saying that instead of supplying your empire with 1 belt, for one weekend a month, you have to use your space daily? And possibly take more space? Fugging CCP, those MONSTERS


Who the hell runs corp ice mining ops anyways. Fuel is cheap, it's a waste of time.



I mean, if you have 40 accounts mining dark glitter then I guess ~you go girl~ but otherwise it's kind of dumb


That's why its called emergent gameplay, if everyone's gameplay only mirrored yours, Eve would be a very boring place.


So you don't disagree that ~corp mining ops~ are a terrible misuse of a corp's manpower?



e: Hey, gotta make your CEO rich somehow.


I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I am just stating that Eve needs all kinds. Diversity of interests is what creates the content. Gankers create content for miners, miners create content for gankers.

As for Corp mining Ops, what kind of Corp; mandatory belt duty (other than the social aspect) in a PvP Corp is one way to get rid of members. But not everyone likes spaceship pew pew, some people like market pew pew, some like manufacturing pew pew, and now some will like Ice Belt pew pew.

tl;dr What I like and you like are never going to be 100%
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#226 - 2013-05-16 15:03:59 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
e: Unless you sell it at your local 0.0 market hub, and glhf moving any real amount of product doing that.

Hopefully the market will change significantly with Odyssey. Right now when you mine isotopes you have to compete with hisec multiboxers. That will change and prices are going up. More people will build their fuel blocks locally and so local demand for LO and HW will also increase.
Arckaon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2013-05-16 16:24:23 UTC
if you sell in local area : people will see, then try to have fuel in local, because it's less log for them

but it's hard to change people personality and they have habit of buying all thing in jita but that will change in the futur ( i hope )
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2013-05-17 04:29:50 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:
e: Unless you sell it at your local 0.0 market hub, and glhf moving any real amount of product doing that.

Hopefully the market will change significantly with Odyssey. Right now when you mine isotopes you have to compete with hisec multiboxers. That will change and prices are going up. More people will build their fuel blocks locally and so local demand for LO and HW will also increase.


Yeah, I've talked to some people and thought a bit more about it. It's pretty likely that if you're mining decent amounts you could sell several billion isk worth at a time to your corp/alliance.


Stront is still useless :V
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#229 - 2013-05-17 04:33:17 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
CNR will probably be the new talos. I don't have the PYFA files to theorycraft anything, but hubs are still likely going to be better than mining. It's just that easymode blaster boats are mostly dead. But don't forget that the skills to run hubs directly translate to actually shooting people.


The shield Vindicator is out, the armour Vindicator is back.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#230 - 2013-05-17 14:58:19 UTC
Gustavus Adolphus wrote:

That's why its called emergent gameplay, if everyone's gameplay only mirrored yours, Eve would be a very boring place.

emergent gameplay is when players figure out new and better ways to do things, not do pointlessly dumb things for no explicable reason
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#231 - 2013-05-17 15:25:27 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:

emergent gameplay is when players figure out new and better ways to do things, not do pointlessly dumb things for no explicable reason


... like using the forums to swagger and grief Miners.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.
Tania Batchwood
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#232 - 2013-05-17 16:18:16 UTC
The 4 hours gap between anomalies respawn is beyond comprehension to me.

Lets say I am an ice miner. This profession, just like ore mining, is active. You do something actively and you get a reward for doing so. Well...not anymore...

You can do ice mining for an hour maybe IF you are lucky and then either wait for 4 hours (what an interesting activity to wait....who thought of that...?) or go do something else...

That doesn't make you an ice miner right? The whole profession is now part time and you are forcing people to do other stuff with toons that they trained for that specific profession.

This will end up being one of the worse decisions you have ever made, based on subscriptions you will lose.

The part where ice was split to small chunks is great, that was needed for sure. AFK mining is now impossible, which is not a bad thing, and bots will have to adjust which should at least stop some of them, hopefully most. OK well done there.

But the 4 hours of waiting for a respawn is unacceptable and you'll see that. I'm pretty sure you'll change that...the sooner you do it the better for your wallet CCP.
Arckaon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2013-05-17 16:24:32 UTC
stop talking about the wallet of ccp if they do that, they have a plan

dont figure yourself about: i'm more smarter than ccp i sure do know what it's good for them. No

it's a good idea end of line

specialized ice miner ? about 1-2 month of skill ?.
you mean specialized ?

specialized is like 1 year or more in training like having all processing at 5 for ore ...
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2013-05-17 16:26:02 UTC
Tania Batchwood wrote:
The 4 hours gap between anomalies respawn is beyond comprehension to me.

Lets say I am an ice miner. This profession, just like ore mining, is active. You do something actively and you get a reward for doing so. Well...not anymore...

You can do ice mining for an hour maybe IF you are lucky and then either wait for 4 hours (what an interesting activity to wait....who thought of that...?) or go do something else...

That doesn't make you an ice miner right? The whole profession is now part time and you are forcing people to do other stuff with toons that they trained for that specific profession.

This will end up being one of the worse decisions you have ever made, based on subscriptions you will lose.

The part where ice was split to small chunks is great, that was needed for sure. AFK mining is now impossible, which is not a bad thing, and bots will have to adjust which should at least stop some of them, hopefully most. OK well done there.

But the 4 hours of waiting for a respawn is unacceptable and you'll see that. I'm pretty sure you'll change that...the sooner you do it the better for your wallet CCP.





The neat thing about Exhumers is that they can be used to mine both ice -and- ore!
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#235 - 2013-05-17 16:52:44 UTC
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:

emergent gameplay is when players figure out new and better ways to do things, not do pointlessly dumb things for no explicable reason


... like using the forums to swagger and grief Miners.

those are new and better ways to exercise raw power to create suffering and recognition that we are oppressing you
Tania Batchwood
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#236 - 2013-05-17 17:09:27 UTC
[/quote]
The neat thing about Exhumers is that they can be used to mine both ice -and- ore!
[/quote]

Wow, very clever. Never realized that... Sarcasm in its worse...

You do realize that ice mining is completely different than ore mining, right? Ore mining requires a lot more attention than ice mining.

Ice mining is basically like real life fishing. It doesn't require a lot attention most of the times but still a lot of people find it very exciting.

Ore mining is completely different in any way and I assure you that not all people that like ice mining will like ore mining (and the opposite of course). CCP has decided to stop people fishing without giving them something similar to do and that can't be good for them and us.

Now regarding CCP's wallet, I don't think Odyssey is so good in other aspects as to replace the thousands of accounts that the ice miners will deactivate. I for example have 8 accounts only for mining. 6 miners, 1 orca, 1 freighter. Most probably I will only keep 1 or 2 active. The rest will be deactivated until CCP decides to lower the ice anomaly respawn timer down to 5 to 20 minutes which they will eventually do. Unless of course they find some other way to attract multiboxers like me :)
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2013-05-17 17:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Tania Batchwood wrote:


Wow, very clever. Never realized that... Sarcasm in its worse...

You do realize that ice mining is completely different than ore mining, right? Ore mining requires a lot more attention than ice mining.

Ice mining is basically like real life fishing. It doesn't require a lot attention most of the times but still a lot of people find it very exciting.

Ore mining is completely different in any way and I assure you that not all people that like ice mining will like ore mining (and the opposite of course). CCP has decided to stop people fishing without giving them something similar to do and that can't be good for them and us.

Now regarding CCP's wallet, I don't think Odyssey is so good in other aspects as to replace the thousands of accounts that the ice miners will deactivate. I for example have 8 accounts only for mining. 6 miners, 1 orca, 1 freighter. Most probably I will only keep 1 or 2 active. The rest will be deactivated until CCP decides to lower the ice anomaly respawn timer down to 5 to 20 minutes which they will eventually do. Unless of course they find some other way to attract multiboxers like me :)




Oh you poor dear, having to interact with eve every 7 or so minutes must be heartbreaking.


e: As opposed to the 10 or so that ice miners can pull off under the current mechanics.
Also, ice mining is like fishing if you are casting your line in a stocked pond full of half starved fish that are basically guaranteed to bite. And the fish are all too small to be a challenge.
Then take away the whole ~peaceful outdoors~ part too.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2013-05-17 17:25:39 UTC
Doubling ice miner yield is going to make it higher effort then ore mining anyways. Stop being a giant baby because you have to actually compete for resources like everyone else in this game.
Tania Batchwood
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#239 - 2013-05-17 18:48:44 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Tania Batchwood wrote:


Wow, very clever. Never realized that... Sarcasm in its worse...

You do realize that ice mining is completely different than ore mining, right? Ore mining requires a lot more attention than ice mining.

Ice mining is basically like real life fishing. It doesn't require a lot attention most of the times but still a lot of people find it very exciting.

Ore mining is completely different in any way and I assure you that not all people that like ice mining will like ore mining (and the opposite of course). CCP has decided to stop people fishing without giving them something similar to do and that can't be good for them and us.

Now regarding CCP's wallet, I don't think Odyssey is so good in other aspects as to replace the thousands of accounts that the ice miners will deactivate. I for example have 8 accounts only for mining. 6 miners, 1 orca, 1 freighter. Most probably I will only keep 1 or 2 active. The rest will be deactivated until CCP decides to lower the ice anomaly respawn timer down to 5 to 20 minutes which they will eventually do. Unless of course they find some other way to attract multiboxers like me :)




Oh you poor dear, having to interact with eve every 7 or so minutes must be heartbreaking.


e: As opposed to the 10 or so that ice miners can pull off under the current mechanics.
Also, ice mining is like fishing if you are casting your line in a stocked pond full of half starved fish that are basically guaranteed to bite. And the fish are all too small to be a challenge.
Then take away the whole ~peaceful outdoors~ part too.


Obviously you are trolling. The point of my initial post was the respawn timer. It needs to be fixed so ice miners can actually mine ice instead of waiting 4 hours and mining for 20 minutes.

Fyi both 7 and 10 minutes you're mentioning are completely wrong as all miners know. If you ain't a miner there really isn't any point in posting in a mining thread also.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#240 - 2013-05-17 18:57:11 UTC
ice miners get their income per hour of mining increased by 2 to 4x

the penalty is they can't afk it all day

deal with it