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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#921 - 2013-05-17 05:15:16 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why on earth did you NERF the tempest fleet issue? It wasn't very good to begin with... I'd even go as far as to say it was crap. Outclassed in damage by the Maelstrom and slower and less agile than the typhoon.


You don't say "Typhoon FI", so I'll assume you mean the standard Typhoon, and so... comparing the new Tempest FI with the new Typhoon: The TFI is not slower than the Phoon. It is less agile, but the TFI is being explictly redesigned as a combat BS, unlike the basic Tempest & Typhoon, and the Typhoon FI, and so it should be less agile.

As for it doing less damage than the Maelstrom - yes it does, but it's easier to fit. An AC TFI can mount a pair of heavy neuts as well with ease, web and point (and a painter for good measure), and more tank than a Maelstrom, at the cost of ~6% DPS. As arty platforms the TFI is smaller, more agile, and faster than a Mael, can put drone range boosters in it utility highs and thus apply drone damage much further, and if you want you can trade tank for range or DPS from the guns (or, by trading enough range, use Fusion/Phased Plasma at ranges where the Mael needs to use Titanium Sabot). Oh, and the Mael needs to use PG rigs or mods, and the TFI doesn't, so where's this 'outclassed' coming from?

I think a lot of people in this thread haven't bothered to actually compare the ships before complaining.


Are you legitimately trying to tell me that the Typhoon FI doesn't obsolete the Tempest FI? The Phoon fleet is faster, more agile, more cargo, has more DPS, a smaller sig radius, has more DPS, etc. The Tempest Fleet comes away with a very minor EHP increase and a bit better fittings space - though the Phoon isn't very limited so that doesn't make as big of a splash as it could. Ultimately the Phoon Fleet just ***** all over the Tempest Fleet.

I'd really like to see CCP Rise discuss the following things:
- Why does the Phoon Fleet obsolete so many ships? What do you see that we don't?
- Why does the Pest Fleet suck so much? What do you see that we don't?
- Why does the Geddon Navy get such a huge drone bay?
- Why does the Geddon Navy get such a massive nerf to its sig radius?
- Why does the CNR suck next to the Golem and Phoon Fleet in PVE and the Phoon Fleet, SNI, Phoon, and others in PVP? How is this a viable ship?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#922 - 2013-05-17 05:45:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Are you legitimately trying to tell me that the Typhoon FI doesn't obsolete the Tempest FI? The Phoon fleet is faster, more agile, more cargo, has more DPS, a smaller sig radius, has more DPS, etc. The Tempest Fleet comes away with a very minor EHP increase and a bit better fittings space - though the Phoon isn't very limited so that doesn't make as big of a splash as it could. Ultimately the Phoon Fleet just ***** all over the Tempest Fleet.


I'm with Liang here, the fitting difficulties are nonexistent (at least for those of us used to having like 3 cpu left after CNR's fit :p) and the small ehp increase simply can't counter Phoon's advantage over the Pest at everything else.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#923 - 2013-05-17 06:09:53 UTC
Shereza wrote:
After reading several comments about the focus of some of the Caldari Navy ships now being oriented on "hitting smaller ships" I just have one question. How do these changes affect people using T2 launchers and the heavy damage ammo intended for hitting larger targets? Wouldn't these bonuses help off-set some of the penalties associated with the heavy damage ammos thereby making them more useful against same-sized opponents as the Caldari ship firing them?

Just a thought.


Let's try shooting at a Stabber (100 sig, 363 m/s) with what might pass for somewhat acceptable mission fits. I'm sure there's more room for optimization with the tank, but I'm mostly looking for reasonable DPS patterns. Drones end up playing a large role here, but I can't neglect them due to the presence of the Phoon Fleet and it's cavernous drone bay.

DPS CNR
8x Cruise II
100mn MWD, Pith C-Type LSB, 3 Invuln, 2 Painter
4 CN BCU, DDA II
Rigor II, 2x Rigor I
3x Bouncer II
Crystals, MP-705, GP-085, TN-905, RL-1005

Tank: 450/100
DPS: 1242 Raw, 589 Applied (CN Wrath), 440 Applied (Fury)

Damage Application CNR
8x Cruise II
100mn MWD, Pith C-Type LSB, 3 Invuln, 2 Painter
4 CN BCU, DDA II
Rigor II, 2x Rigor I
3x Bouncer II
Crystals, MP-705, GP-085, TN-905, RL-1005

Tank: 450/100
DPS: 1178 Raw, 663 Applied (CN Wrath), 489 Applied (Fury)


DPS Golem
4 Cruise II
3 Painter
4 CN BCU
LBA II, Rigor I
5x Valk II, 5x Warrior II
Crystals, MP-705, GP-085, TN-905, RL-1005

Tank: 556 / 165
DPS: 1177 Raw, 658 Applied (CN Wrath), 461 Applied (Fury)

Applied Golem
4 Cruise II
Pith C-Type LSB, 2 Inv, 3 Painter
4 CN BCU
2x Rigor II
5x Valk II, 5x Warrior II
Crystals, MP-705, GP-085, TN-905, RL-1005

Tank: 556 / 165
DPS: 1113 Raw, 767 Applied (CN Wrath), 532 Applied (Fury)


DPS Phoon Fleet
6x Cruise II, 2x ATS II
Pith C-Type LSB, 2 Inv, 2 Painter
3 CN BCU, 3 DDA II, DC II
BLA II, 2x Flare I
5x Bouncer II+moar
Crystals, MP-705, GP-085, TN-905, RL-1005

Tank: 442 / 114
DPS: 1471 Raw, 745 Applied (CN Wrath), 630 Applied (Fury)

Applied Phoon Fleet
6x Cruise II, 2x ATS II
Pith C-Type LSB, 2 Inv, 2 Painter
3 CN BCU, 3 DDA II, DC II
2x Rigor II, Rigor I
5x Bouncer II+moar
Crystals, MP-705, GP-085, TN-905, RL-1005

Tank: 442 / 114
DPS: 1390 Raw, 814 Applied (CN Wrath), 675 Applied (Fury)

Commentary: Obviously I can push the Phoon Fleet higher by tacking on a pair of 1400mms. It would probably even really help with frigates. However, the 2x ATS II lets it lock pretty much the entire battlefield simultaneously. Also, I don't want to be accused of gaming the system with "unbonused" or "useless" damage too much. Gotta gimp the Phoon somehow!


Sorted Raw DPS
1471, DPS Phoon Fleet
1390, Applied Phoon Fleet
1242, DPS CNR
1178, Applied CNR
1177, DPS Golem
1113, Applied Golem

Sorted Applied DPS
814, Applied Phoon (CN)
767, Applied Golem (CN)
745, DPS Phoon (CN)
675, Applied Phoon (Fury)
663, Applied CNR (CN)
658, DPS Golem (CN)
630, Applied Phoon (Fury)
589, DPS CNR (CN)
532, Applied Golem (Fury)
489, Applied CNR (Fury)
461, DPS Golem (Fury)
440, DPS CNR (Fury)

Conclusion: The Phoon Fleet is a monster and Fury still sucks even with damage application bonuses. The Cruise Golem is pretty hilarious. The bulk of HP in a mission is in ships that you shouldn't have much trouble applying damage to, so going with more raw DPS has traditionally been a good choice.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#924 - 2013-05-17 06:51:15 UTC
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Zetak wrote:
Roime wrote:
What is the intended use for a Navy Mega?

It doesn't seem to have mnay strengths compared to other ships here.

What does "attack battleship" mean?



Well, it has 130m/s speed for starters. Take it from someone who used really slow ship (raven navy) all the time, 455m/s max speed is really good with an AB. You can have 5 sentry with this ship, while you are able to carry 5 med drone or 10 light drone. You can have an extra high slot of your choosing. 1 drone link for instance. you have +3000 base armor hp. whats not to like here?



What's not to like is that people keep on saying how great the extra drone options are when it's a turret ship. If you want extra drones from a Gallente ship go with the Navy Domi (even though it's getting shorted a slot). I would much rather have a 5th mid and/or an 8th turret and have no drones at all. If you really need to have that extra little DPS for cruiser sized targets from a Mega, a second web or TP would fit the ship much better, not to mention that if you referring to fleet roles you would (or at least should) have designated ships to counter smaller ships.

EDIT: don't get me wrong, more drones are great but if we are trying to get to the heart of what this ship is supposed to do, more drones should not be how it gets buffed.


I understand.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#925 - 2013-05-17 07:26:44 UTC
Altimo wrote:

More tank than a maelstrom? Uh, I don't think so, the mael gets a shield boost bonus, the tank on a mael depending on how you set it up is far superior to the Tempest fleet issue, provided you set up the maelstrom for tank.

Sorry, I should have said - I was talking buffer tanks for small gang work with logis.
Quote:

If I want a smaller faster and more agile battleship, then I'll use a tornado, why would I spend 500 mill on a paper tanked fleet tempest? just because it has an extra low slot, but is virtually the same ship? Uh no I don't think so. Seriously if your suggesting we use this as a speedy armor tanked battleship, it's not going to work so well, feel free to try it yourself, you can right now on the regular server, never mind the test server.

Because the TFI need not be paper tanked. Note - it's faster than a shield Mael when fitted with two plates.
Quote:

The Mael uses 8 turret slots which is where most of the cpu consumption goes, along with the MWD or XLASB's that you fit on them. And hey guess what, when you set it up for tank, you can still squeeze a lot of dps out of it because its a shield tanked ship. But other than that, there is no problem fitting the maelstrom.

Funny, my EFT testing with a all-V pilot showed a need to fit for extra PG when using Arty.
Quote:

I can also trade tank for range and more dps on the maelstrom as well. I haven't ever needed to use PG rigs for any AC fit, a couple of cpu mods and that's it, for 8 1400's one pg rig is all I need, all depending on what I'm doing with my tank, but if I'm using those then I'm probably a sniper and not well designed to tank.

If you don't care about tank, you can get a lot of DPS from a TFI too.
Quote:

The TFI is outclassed because for its given role other ships are just plain better, like the other navy battleships for instance. They shine in their roles far better than a tempest will shine in its own role, fleet or regular.

Which fleet BS is a better AC brawler? It's not the Typhoon FI.
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#926 - 2013-05-17 07:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Zetak
Shereza wrote:
After reading several comments about the focus of some of the Caldari Navy ships now being oriented on "hitting smaller ships" I just have one question. How do these changes affect people using T2 launchers and the heavy damage ammo intended for hitting larger targets? Wouldn't these bonuses help off-set some of the penalties associated with the heavy damage ammos thereby making them more useful against same-sized opponents as the Caldari ship firing them?

Just a thought.


T2 cruise ammo will have very high expl radius, but you have to factor in that cruise is a guided missile, so the associated expl radius skill bonus apply to it, and thus you can usually hit targets of same size with a minimum reduction, without using the ship bonus. The real benefit against same size targets is when you use torpedoes. But the problem with torpedoes, is that though they can do immense damage, they are really close range, even with max skills. so if you want to hit something at med range 40+ km you have to use javelin torp ammo. Also with the cruise missile buff, besides Golem, it is really not worth to fit torps imo, at least not in pve. Thats why people complain about the bonus. I personally do not aggre with them, all I see is benefit, with some dps sacrifice (80 dps) compared to the old CNR.

The navy drake expl radius is a little interesting, it does not help at all against same class enemies, but it helps against cruisers, using t2 damge ammo. The real upside of the navy drake is what is advertised: flexibility, freedom. with 8 launcher you can do extremely versatile rainbow damage, you can pick the strongest damage types, so you are not restricted to kinetic damage. And a lot of ships pack very high kinetic shield/armor res, so if you give a serious thought about the subject, if you are smart,your ship can and will produce the same dps results. ppl just have to start think outside the on paper numbers
I can agree that a rof bonus would yield much higher dps, but as a pve Guy, I can really really appreciate the drake range and precision bonus, with 8 launcher. In pvp where 3-4 frig gangs often kill a BS with ease, people will really appreciate
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#927 - 2013-05-17 07:32:25 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Commentary: Obviously I can push the Phoon Fleet higher by tacking on a pair of 1400mms. It would probably even really help with frigates. However, the 2x ATS II lets it lock pretty much the entire battlefield simultaneously. Also, I don't want to be accused of gaming the system with "unbonused" or "useless" damage too much. Gotta gimp the Phoon somehow!

Actually, they track too poorly to help much unless the frigates are coming right at you. OTOH, if you really want help with frigates and don't want to mess about swapping drone flights in and out you can mount smaller guns for better applied DPS in smaller fast targets. It seems like a waste, but it is doable.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#928 - 2013-05-17 07:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
EDIT: nvm, I failed here
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#929 - 2013-05-17 07:53:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Liang Nuren wrote:

Let's try shooting at a Stabber (100 sig, 363 m/s) with what might pass for somewhat acceptable mission fits. I'm sure there's more room for optimization with the tank, but I'm mostly looking for reasonable DPS patterns.

Okay, I've worked out where one of the disconnects is - you're using 4-slot active tanks, whereas I'm putting on 5-6 slot buffer tanks because I'm used to WH sites in fleets and design to those, and the alpha from 4+ sleeper BS would wreck something as lightly tanked as these (and if it didn't the heroic logi pilots who saved my ****would slap me silly afterwards for flying a fit this fragile). Also, we like to have a least a point on everything, in case of surprise PvP.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#930 - 2013-05-17 09:20:53 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
5 lows on scorp navy????
I have a scorp navy toon. WHAT THE HELL SHOULD I DO WITH A 5th LOW????
4th ballistic control system will give me maybe 40 or 50 dp. Almost useless^^



I was gonna go with Signal Amplifier II

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Kane Fenris
NWP
#931 - 2013-05-17 10:46:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
IbanezLaney wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
5 lows on scorp navy????
I have a scorp navy toon. WHAT THE HELL SHOULD I DO WITH A 5th LOW????
4th ballistic control system will give me maybe 40 or 50 dp. Almost useless^^



I was gonna go with Signal Amplifier II


or what about a coprocessor so you could fit 2x asb?
or a drone dmg amp?

Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Altimo wrote:

If I want a smaller faster and more agile battleship, then I'll use a tornado, why would I spend 500 mill on a paper tanked fleet tempest? just because it has an extra low slot, but is virtually the same ship? Uh no I don't think so. Seriously if your suggesting we use this as a speedy armor tanked battleship, it's not going to work so well, feel free to try it yourself, you can right now on the regular server, never mind the test server.

Because the TFI need not be paper tanked. Note - it's faster than a shield Mael when fitted with two plates.


oh wow your faster then a ship which is beaten by a dead snail in terms of speed

...not to mention if we go there there exist ships as fast(actually slow) that are better then the TFI so it has no advantage (speed) left to make it viable.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#932 - 2013-05-17 11:00:22 UTC
MinutemanKirk wrote:
What's not to like is that people keep on saying how great the extra drone options are when it's a turret ship. If you want extra drones from a Gallente ship go with the Navy Domi (even though it's getting shorted a slot). I would much rather have a 5th mid and/or an 8th turret and have no drones at all. If you really need to have that extra little DPS for cruiser sized targets from a Mega, a second web or TP would fit the ship much better, not to mention that if you referring to fleet roles you would (or at least should) have designated ships to counter smaller ships.

EDIT: don't get me wrong, more drones are great but if we are trying to get to the heart of what this ship is supposed to do, more drones should not be how it gets buffed.

The problem is that devs are probably a bit paranoid about any amount of additional mid slots on Gallente ships at this point. You want TP or another web, but for some it screams "shield tank all the things", especially if it's blaster boats we are talking about. I'm not saying that 5 mids would be enough for sheld BS, but maybe shades of this issue affect decisions.

Add some amount of other really small, but numerous reasons (mostly public ones, like people going "Gallente Y no drones?", "Y Geddon, but not a Mega?", certain vulnerability of droneless BS which can potentially push people into more "is blob The Way now?"), and maybe these are grains of sand that contributed to outweighting a boulder.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#933 - 2013-05-17 11:31:03 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
5 lows on scorp navy????
I have a scorp navy toon. WHAT THE HELL SHOULD I DO WITH A 5th LOW????
4th ballistic control system will give me maybe 40 or 50 dp. Almost useless^^



I was gonna go with Signal Amplifier II


Knowing Caldari PvE a low slot ECCM would be useful as well.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#934 - 2013-05-17 11:37:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Kane Fenris wrote:

oh wow your faster then a ship which is beaten by a dead snail in terms of speed

...not to mention if we go there there exist ships as fast(actually slow) that are better then the TFI so it has no advantage (speed) left to make it viable.

So, the problem is that the Tempest FI is slow because there are two battleships that are faster (Typhoon FI, Machariel), and two that are the same speed (Typhoon, Megathron NI)? I grant you that with enough armour stacked on it the Tempest FI might become slower than a shield tanked Megathron (with four mids - seems an unlikely choice) or Vindicator.

If the Tempest FI is too slow, then so is every other battleship except perhaps the Machariel. I suggest that you make your case for all battleships to get a speed boost, and probably the slower battlecruisers as well. If this isn't what you want, then perhaps you'd like to explain why the Tempest FI is a special snowflake that gets to go faster than every other battleship, including all the attack battleships.
fuxinos
Perkone
Caldari State
#935 - 2013-05-17 11:46:38 UTC  |  Edited by: fuxinos
Get rid of the velocity bonus on the Navy Raven and replace it with a 5% damage bonusAttention

Wouldnt be OP at all since the dps would be about 1300~ which is just fine for an faction ship.Attention
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#936 - 2013-05-17 11:50:42 UTC
fuxinos wrote:
Get rid of the velocity bonus on the Navy Raven and replace it with a 5% damage bonusAttention

Wouldnt be OP at all since the dps would be about 1300~ which is just fine for an faction ship.Attention

The fact that makes it OP is not the dps that much but the RANGE you would have. One launcher slot would need to be removed and also the cruise missile buff carefully reconsidered.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#937 - 2013-05-17 12:11:20 UTC
Soo... Pretty much looks like Tempest fleet issues needs a buff and the scorpion navy issues and Phoon fleet issue need nerfs... Other than that, most things look pretty good. The extra +200 Drone bay on the geddon needs to be removed asap tho, makes no ******* sense at all... There is really no point in flying a navy mega with the navy geddon the way it is now.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#938 - 2013-05-17 12:15:17 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Soo... Pretty much looks like Tempest fleet issues needs a buff and the scorpion navy issues and Phoon fleet issue need nerfs... Other than that, most things look pretty good. The extra +200 Drone bay on the geddon needs to be removed asap tho, makes no ******* sense at all... There is really no point in flying a navy mega with the navy geddon the way it is now.


well theres no reason to nerf the dronebay all the way maybe the same bay as the Hype has.
Oh and there is no point in flying the navy mega anyway with the navy domi about and for a little more isk a vindi or kronos.
The navy mega is just too similar to too many ships it needs a USP.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#939 - 2013-05-17 12:19:57 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


well theres no reason to nerf the dronebay all the way maybe the same bay as the Hype has.
Oh and there is no point in flying the navy mega anyway with the navy domi about and for a little more isk a vindi or kronos.
The navy mega is just too similar to too many ships it needs a USP.


I'd be all for the navy geddon losing it's +200 and getting the 175 m3 it use to have. As for there being no point in the mega because of the domi? That one I simply do not get, domi has very minimal turret dps, mega on the other hand has the highest turret dps of the bunch So I don't really see how the two are comparable outside of overly simplified eft dps values.

About the kronos or vindi costing a "little" more isk than a navy mega... That just flat out wrong. Navy mega is around 450m, kronos and vindi are well over 1b. I'd call that quite a bit more.

Overall What I'd like to see for the navy mega is a swap in "role" with the navy domi. The nmega should be the combat one imo and the navy domi the attack. The domi has a better slot layout for a "fast" bs anyway, the navy mega is just going to stack 2-3 plates +3x trimarks and lose any mobility advantage it had over the others.
fuxinos
Perkone
Caldari State
#940 - 2013-05-17 12:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: fuxinos
Johnson Oramara wrote:
fuxinos wrote:
Get rid of the velocity bonus on the Navy Raven and replace it with a 5% damage bonusAttention

Wouldnt be OP at all since the dps would be about 1300~ which is just fine for an faction ship.Attention

The fact that makes it OP is not the dps that much but the RANGE you would have. One launcher slot would need to be removed and also the cruise missile buff carefully reconsidered.


I was using Torps for that calculation.

On top, Cruise fly 168km with skills and without the bonus. And those 10km extra range the velocity bonus gives for Torpedoes is a joke.

We have rigs for that.