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Dev blog: Dual Character Training

First post First post First post
Author
No Alibi
Sometimes Here
#141 - 2013-05-16 18:39:40 UTC
Anathema Matou wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Anathema Matou wrote:
This new feature has a UI problem. Please keep the option to activate dual training 2 steps away from activate game time, to avoid... accidents Roll, i.e. below the "return to redeem items" option.

There is an additional modal window which will require confirmation. If not these two, then there will be another two options next to each other. We discussed this internally but hopefully the modal confirmation window is enough to prevent mistakes?


Actually, to elaborate why this is dangerous and, imho, insufficient to prevent mistakes: the activate-game-time also has a dialog box (even two, one for activating and one for the "please wait between consecutive activations"). People get used to quickly clicking OKAY on those. So having another option with a model dialog is not very safe.

Try not to do that while drinking....P

I fly by the seat of my pants, No wonder my ass is always on fire!

No Alibi
Sometimes Here
#142 - 2013-05-16 18:46:09 UTC
Vizvig wrote:
We know that we dont need anything that break balance. (like gold shells)

My idea: how about new skills for aurum? Skills dont disrupt balance because they should be trained.

This ^^ A use for useless AurumShocked

I fly by the seat of my pants, No wonder my ass is always on fire!

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#143 - 2013-05-16 18:46:31 UTC
No Alibi wrote:
Anathema Matou wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Anathema Matou wrote:
This new feature has a UI problem. Please keep the option to activate dual training 2 steps away from activate game time, to avoid... accidents Roll, i.e. below the "return to redeem items" option.

There is an additional modal window which will require confirmation. If not these two, then there will be another two options next to each other. We discussed this internally but hopefully the modal confirmation window is enough to prevent mistakes?


Actually, to elaborate why this is dangerous and, imho, insufficient to prevent mistakes: the activate-game-time also has a dialog box (even two, one for activating and one for the "please wait between consecutive activations"). People get used to quickly clicking OKAY on those. So having another option with a model dialog is not very safe.

Try not to do that while drinking....P

Don't activate a PLEX you can't afford to misallocate.
Lol

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

No Alibi
Sometimes Here
#144 - 2013-05-16 19:16:03 UTC
Drachiel wrote:
45 days please, to cover the inability to dualbox.

Seems fair...or buy 1, get 1.5 return???

I fly by the seat of my pants, No wonder my ass is always on fire!

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#145 - 2013-05-16 19:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Taram Caldar
I dunno... call me crazy but I think this is over priced.
If you aren't actively training a 2nd character your timer shouldn't run on the plex you paid. Basically CCP is getting paid for full use of two characters when you can't fully use two characters. 1, and only 1, can ever be logged in at a time still. We're paying FULL PRICE for the ability to train a 2nd character. I'd be ok with that if I only paid while the character was training:
IE: Pause the timer if the 2nd character isn't actually training anything.

Also, because it's plex, you're paying a lot more for it.
Monthly fee: $14.95 a month
3 Months: 12.95 a month
6 Months: etc....

1 Plex: $19.95 (Currently on sale for $17.95) (Yes, I know those of us who can afford it can buy them with isk, that's beside the point)

I'm sorry but am I the only one that sees something wrong here?

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.  He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#146 - 2013-05-16 20:16:05 UTC
Taram Caldar wrote:
I dunno... call me crazy but I think this is over priced.
If you aren't actively training a 2nd character your timer shouldn't run on the plex you paid. Basically CCP is getting paid for full use of two characters when you can't fully use two characters. 1, and only 1, can ever be logged in at a time still. We're paying FULL PRICE for the ability to train a 2nd character. I'd be ok with that if I only paid while the character was training:
IE: Pause the timer if the 2nd character isn't actually training anything.

Also, because it's plex, you're paying a lot more for it.
Monthly fee: $14.95 a month
3 Months: 12.95 a month
6 Months: etc....

1 Plex: $19.95 (Currently on sale for $17.95) (Yes, I know those of us who can afford it can buy them with isk, that's beside the point)

I'm sorry but am I the only one that sees something wrong here?

It's not a mandatory thing. If you see other options being preferable, feel free to use them instead.
Commander IceQ
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#147 - 2013-05-16 21:14:01 UTC
Neftaran wrote:
Your greed sickens me.

Damion Rayne wrote:
Now this is straight up greed.

SunTsu Rae wrote:
I've read enough.

Yet... you are here and still p(l)ayingQuestion... RAGE QUIT!!! Can I has your stuff? Cool

SunTsu Rae wrote:
The point being , and I believe I have posted in my past 4 years somewhere about this , the player should not be taxed again for the option of training all toons on the account. PERIOD.

I pay for this account I deserve the full unencumbered use of it.

AGAIN you can only use 1 toon at a time, therefore it allows a player/user to explore other options in the game.

In my case I would have 6 toons with 4 years, or roughly 70M+ sp per toon. Lots of options. Why is restricting us and asking for more money for a option that should be there already a good thing ?

Show me ANY MMO where you can log in with 1 account and have all the toons on that account active in at the same time... or where you level/train all of them at the same time... Roll If you can do that, only THEN will any of the arguments for making it free have any kind of validation.

This isn't greed, this is a business decision. CCP is a company, they need to make money. They do this by providing services, and charging for it. Why not?

Back On Topic: Nice feature... now I can finally train that last level on my CEO toon. :)

I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.

Michiko Misaka
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2013-05-16 21:15:25 UTC
I sort of see why CCP went with this sort of system.. it's a balanced thing

This is never intended as a replacement for alt accounts, since all it is enabling is the activation of another character's skill queue. Of course, the limitation (only one additional skill queue, and you paying for the feature) is there for a reason.

Sorry to spoil the fun but no, unlocking all three toons' skill queues as a free added feature will not happen, and as such you won't be training alts for sale as a form of passive income, and you all know CCP don't like effortless passive income...

I am against the 'one account per customer' thing. And highly likely CCP will not restrict it - it's already giving them the revenue they need. If you can't recall all your userIDs and passwords for every last one of them off your head, you shouldn't be complaining about the problems of operating multiple accounts, ad most other more competent players can do that effortlessly.

Besides, having 4 accounts and a total of 16 toons active, and having to transfer the best ones over into a single account with the fees associated is not worth it - individual accounts' client settings and fully functional independent operatability aside, i enjoy the current implementation of multiple accounts, and the capability to pay for another skill queue is a great addition.

Though the price difference between PLEX and equivalent current subscription fees for the same period is a bit imbalanced / not identical for value, but this may be due to the price of a 1-month regular sub fee being exactly worth a PLEX ($19.95) so i wonder what solution CCP can grant for this issue.

Overall, i approve of the current implementation of this addon. Subscription Period Timers can go on the character profile > PIlot License window and logon screen , whilst the new Skill Queue timer can go on the characters' Skill queue as an expanded window or as a timer, and as another timer on logon screen that shows when the particular character is highlighted.

The only other thing that really needs addressing is switching between characters - the current implementation of having to completely log-off and restart the client is quite cumbersome. I've gone and run multiple clients, pausing skillqueue on one then instantly logging on the other just so i can squeeze in a few seconds of skilltraining on the other character that would otherwise be lost just going through the entire logoff and restart client process...



Drachiel
Mercury LLC
#149 - 2013-05-16 21:42:40 UTC
No Alibi wrote:
Drachiel wrote:
45 days please, to cover the inability to dualbox.

Seems fair...or buy 1, get 1.5 return???


Dual training

$19.95 per month
Cannot use both characters at once

Second Account

$15 per month
Can use both characters at once

Not only is a second account cheaper, it's also outright better.

45 days would, IMO make up for the higher $$$ cost and inability to dual box.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#150 - 2013-05-16 21:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Drachiel wrote:
No Alibi wrote:
Drachiel wrote:
45 days please, to cover the inability to dualbox.

Seems fair...or buy 1, get 1.5 return???


Dual training

$19.95 per month
Cannot use both characters at once

Second Account

$15 per month
Can use both characters at once

Not only is a second account cheaper, it's also outright better.

45 days would, IMO make up for the higher $$$ cost and inability to dual box.


Not precisely, because what happens at the end of that month? If you're training a character with a 30-day skill requirement (trader, scout, cyno, etc.) then you have to pay your extra $15/month to use the character at all, even after all the skills they need are trained, or more than that to merge the character back into a main account. If you pay the $19.95/1 PLEX for a second skill queue, that's all you ever pay in order to be able to use that alt.

It doesn't make much sense if you only have 1 account to begin with (although, especially if the alt is a CEO or a trader, it might). But if you have two or more, it's a nice option to have.

If you want a second character who can log in simultaneously with your first, has a dedicated skill queue, etc., then of course you want that character to have their own account. But then, you don't want an alt, you want another character.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-05-16 22:09:24 UTC
Roajax wrote:
Go the full distance.... Increase the number of toons per account to at least 9. Allow us to login multiple characters at once.

IE: If I'm paying 2 plex's per month I should be able to login 2 toons on that account. Nothing worse than trying to make the right combo of pilots + cynos work when there are ridiculous account restrictions. IE: toon1 on account#1 with cyno. toon #2 on account #2 with carrier. toon #3 on account #1 with jump freighter. See the problem? Would be a ton easier if I could just whichever 2 toons I need.


I fail to see the problem here. If you are paying effectively for 2 accounts, and you want to play 2 characters at once, make 2 accounts. Create a cyno on each account.
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#152 - 2013-05-16 22:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
Somebody needs to protest and point out the negative side of this new feature.

But it won't me.

Well I will point to CCP that they are going to lose some revenue from pirates. Now rotating pirate alts can be done on a single account with no months where alts have reach optimal useful training but its too soon for starting the next alts. Lots of those guys held extra accounts open continuously for pirate alts - so that pirate alts could be periodically replaced without interfering with the main toon training when the pirate became too infamous to be profitable. Not talking about the big name/big fleet pirates who take pride in their infamy but those pirates who do small squad ambush piracy of commerce and exhumer bounties. Hard to do ambush when half of EVE recognizes you in local and flees to stations.

Plus of course CCP loses the toon transfer fee off the old approach of "train alt on separate account until mature then transfer alt to consolidate accounts".

On positive note -- maybe we will see less trial account abuse by veteran pirates. Although given the cost of PLEX, I doubt it will disappear. Still there are things full accounts can do that trials can't - which CrimeWatch changes have made more important. Things like haulers getting suspect flagged for stealing loot mean higher tanking/navigation skills are important. Plus snatch and grab hauler names gaining infamy in local due to flagging...leading to need for name changes/alt replacement.

On the bad news/good news front...I expect the average quality of player pirates to increase since additional training comes in 30 day blocks. Sure many will just split training time in half and give two alts the training of old trail account strategies. Still the temptation for more skill and better pirating ships might makes some pirates SLIGHTLY more vulnerable to revenge as they have more to lose.

Great feature change.Can hardly waitingfor the ripples to settle and final effects on game to be seen.
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#153 - 2013-05-16 22:38:58 UTC
I would have much rather of had a system where you can Queue up skills and when they are done they move to another character.

But hey, I guess that doesn't eat plex.

And for those of you wanting to do this for a whole year...
Buy a second account!..

Why would you pay for a whole year when all you can do is train!... The price of plexs and subscription is over the top as it is, and now they add this in and some of you seem happy to jump on it, durrrr...

The reason customers are jumping ship and not buying plexs is not down to the economy or a shift in customer values. It's because you nerf the things that required multiple players. Manufacturing and R&D come to mind here, the amount of nerfage on that over the past couple of years has seen a lot of big producers take 10 accounts down to 1.

But hey.... If you would rather code in a new revenue stream rather than add great features, so be it. It is your game.
Roki Romani
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2013-05-16 22:51:50 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game.


Why not?

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either.

Well, that time should be shown too. Why not? And the players would not see it "all the time", just when their character sheet is open. Even then they would not see a time ticking down, just the expiration date and time.


I'll bring this up with the team again, since a few people are asking about this in the thread, but it's basically to do with verisimilitude or what things belong/fit in game and what things belong/fit in account management pages. So far with the exception of PLEX, there is little in game which references account management and that's intentional.

Showing things which are removed from the EVE universe in gameplay or narrative terms is something we have tried to avoid, but like I said we will discuss this and see if the PLEX section or character sheet is the right place to potentially show timers like this. There are a number of different views within the team itself, so that's one of the reasons we have held off on a timer of some kind.

Feedback like this is great though as it helps us know what you guys wants.

I would argue that the duration remaining on your character's in-game pilot license, which you paid for by purchasing an in-game coupon, which you can only activate while in-game, counts as worthy in-game information.

I agree that "Paid account time remaining" should not be displayed in-game... But what if we were to say that purchasing a month's subscription was actually both increasing your account time AND granting you an in-game pilot's licence extension? Even though these two things would have identical timers, they could still be treated and presented differently.
Krynn Fennir
Systems High Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#155 - 2013-05-16 23:44:20 UTC
Good idea, poor implementation. PLEX was began as an alternate way of paying for game subscriptions, buy trading real money for ISK via CCP's in-game method (currently the only way to go about this without getting banned). Then you made a pointless little store... I mean really... not a single ship or module on it... However, for those that for some reason like to play 'dress up' with their characters, it is something that increases the demand and cost of PLEX. Now you're adding another feature that will do the same.

I'm all for added features and functionality, but those features need to be assigned to separate items.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#156 - 2013-05-17 00:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
I have removed several rule breaking posts (and those that quoted them) and edited out some personal attacks.
Please people, keep it on topic, constructive and above all civil!

Thread unlocked.

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CCP Quant
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C C P Alliance
#157 - 2013-05-17 01:09:58 UTC
destinationunreachable wrote:
guys, took you 4 years to do this feature request Lol
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1026297&page=1#1

edit: can't count


Well holy **** Shocked Thanks for digging this up, I'll send this around the house Big smile
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#158 - 2013-05-17 01:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Drachiel wrote:
No Alibi wrote:
Drachiel wrote:
45 days please, to cover the inability to dualbox.

Seems fair...or buy 1, get 1.5 return???


Dual training

$19.95 per month
Cannot use both characters at once

Second Account

$15 per month
Can use both characters at once

Not only is a second account cheaper, it's also outright better.

45 days would, IMO make up for the higher $$$ cost and inability to dual box.


There are benefits and drawbacks to using a second account and there are benefits and drawbacks to using dual character training. With dual training, you don't need to continue paying that extra PLEX or $15 every month to use the character you've trained. If you need to keep a second character training long-term with the ability to use them both concurrently, a second account is more suitable for you. If you only need to train a second character for a while but don't want to commit to paying an extra $15/month to use it, dual training is probably a better option.

This is why you still have the choice of using a second account, but CCP is simply giving you another option to consider.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#159 - 2013-05-17 01:25:22 UTC
My main issue is cost. A plex is 20 bucks. To add a "bonus" is a 125% increase in the account cost for a temporary "feature".

Yaay!!!!

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#160 - 2013-05-17 01:37:34 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
My main issue is cost. A plex is 20 bucks. To add a "bonus" is a 125% increase in the account cost for a temporary "feature".


It's a 33% increase, not a 125% increase, and they're probably using PLEX because it's easier to implement for an experimental feature that we have no guarantee will continue to be offered in the long term. I'm sure they'll consider allowing you to buy it directly through account management eventually, but for now, this is probably aimed at those of us who already buy PLEX in-game to pay for our accounts.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar