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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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MinutemanKirk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#901 - 2013-05-16 16:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: MinutemanKirk
Zetak wrote:
Roime wrote:
What is the intended use for a Navy Mega?

It doesn't seem to have mnay strengths compared to other ships here.

What does "attack battleship" mean?



Well, it has 130m/s speed for starters. Take it from someone who used really slow ship (raven navy) all the time, 455m/s max speed is really good with an AB. You can have 5 sentry with this ship, while you are able to carry 5 med drone or 10 light drone. You can have an extra high slot of your choosing. 1 drone link for instance. you have +3000 base armor hp. whats not to like here?



What's not to like is that people keep on saying how great the extra drone options are when it's a turret ship. If you want extra drones from a Gallente ship go with the Navy Domi (even though it's getting shorted a slot). I would much rather have a 5th mid and/or an 8th turret and have no drones at all. If you really need to have that extra little DPS for cruiser sized targets from a Mega, a second web or TP would fit the ship much better, not to mention that if you referring to fleet roles you would (or at least should) have designated ships to counter smaller ships.

EDIT: don't get me wrong, more drones are great but if we are trying to get to the heart of what this ship is supposed to do, more drones should not be how it gets buffed.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#902 - 2013-05-16 16:46:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Zetak wrote:
Roime wrote:
What is the intended use for a Navy Mega?

It doesn't seem to have mnay strengths compared to other ships here.

What does "attack battleship" mean?



Well, it has 130m/s speed for starters. Take it from someone who used really slow ship (raven navy) all the time, 455m/s max speed is really good with an AB. You can have 5 sentry with this ship, while you are able to carry 5 med drone or 10 light drone. You can have an extra high slot of your choosing. 1 drone link for instance. you have +3000 base armor hp. whats not to like here?



What's not to like is that people keep on saying how great the extra drone options are when it's a turret ship. If you want extra drones from a Gallente ship go with the Navy Domi (even though it's getting shorted a slot). I would much rather have a 5th mid and/or an 8th turret and have no drones at all. If you really need to have that extra little DPS for cruiser sized targets from a Mega, a second web or TP would fit the ship much better, not to mention that if you referring to fleet roles you would (or at least should) have designated ships to counter smaller ships.

EDIT: don't get me wrong, more drones are great but if we are trying to get to the heart of what this ship is supposed to do, more drones should not be how it gets buffed.


I would sum up the gallente ships as why would you use a navy mega over a navy domi?
answer is ...... err .....

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Ronon Romanov
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#903 - 2013-05-16 20:00:58 UTC
I think battleships need more shields, more armor and more hull. If you do to comparaison with navy battlecruiser :

Navy Brutix, Standard Mega and Navy Mega >

Navy Brutix :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 5250 / 6750 / 7125

Standard Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500

Navy Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 9500(-461) / 10500(-750)


Hmmm, ok, No body see something wrong here ?
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#904 - 2013-05-16 20:08:39 UTC
Tested a Raven Navy Issue on Sisi a little bit ago, easily defeated a drake navy issue, was only at about 75% shield and no heat used.

Fit
8x cruise launcher tech II

Med
2x Large shield extender II
1x Adaptive Invul II
1x Heavy Cap Booster Navy 800's
1x Warp Disruptor II
1x Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron (painter)
1x Prototype 100MN MWD

Low
3x Ballistic control system II
1x Nanofiber II
1x damage control

Rigs
2x extender, 1x em

CN Mjolnir Cruise and ecm lights


Then I took out a Raven, beat a Rook with an active fit, was close and used alot of heat, but once my heavy nuet landed it was over

High
6x cruise launcher tech II
1x 500W infectious Power system

Med
1x 100mn Experimental Afterburner
1x Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron (painter)
1x Warp Disruptor II
1x Heavy Cap Booster Navy 800's
1x Adaptive Invul II
1x 5a Prototype shield support I
1x XL C%-L Emergency Shield overload I

Low
3x Ballistic control system II
1x Nanofiber II
1x damage control

Rigs
2x extender, 1x em (wasn't even rigged great) would probably replace the extenders with something else
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#905 - 2013-05-16 22:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Oramara
Ronon Romanov wrote:
I think battleships need more shields, more armor and more hull. If you do to comparaison with navy battlecruiser :

Navy Brutix, Standard Mega and Navy Mega >

Navy Brutix :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 5250 / 6750 / 7125

Standard Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500

Navy Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 9500(-461) / 10500(-750)


Hmmm, ok, No body see something wrong here ?

That issue has been brought out but devs are ignoring now the other threads.

Heck, battleships feel like tier 4 bc's...
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#906 - 2013-05-16 22:31:49 UTC
TheFace Asano wrote:
Tested a Raven Navy Issue on Sisi a little bit ago, easily defeated a drake navy issue, was only at about 75% shield and no heat used.


Tbh, that's not really a fair fight. Navy Drake's purpose is hitting small ships.

Anyway, tested the CNR on the field and imo it performed admirably, though it should get a bit extra cpu, fitting that thing is a *****. How admirably? Let's just say frigs and cruisers won't want to be in range when you have precisions loaded ;)

I also took a navy Typhoon for a spin and I have to admit I love it retained its flexibility. The only problem is, next to it, I see no reason for FleePest to exist :/
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#907 - 2013-05-16 23:10:02 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:

I also took a navy Typhoon for a spin and I have to admit I love it retained its flexibility. The only problem is, next to it, I see no reason for FleePest to exist :/

I'm going to go with: It is a whole lot easier to fit a Tempest FI compared to an AC Typhoon FI - you can fit two heavy neuts on the 'pest with no problem, and you have a lot more EHP for the same fit (assuming armour). It's somewhat slower, of course (but still considerably faster than a Rokh or a SNI, even with two plates fitted). As for 1400mm artillery - to fit these to a Phoon FI means adding a lot of fitting rigs and modules because it's so short of PG. On a Pest FI, you only need one (unless you decide to fill the utility highs with something power-hungry).

So, I conclude that the Pest FI is vastly superior to the Phoon FI if you want something with guns.

As for Pest FI vs Maelstrom, well as artillery boats an armour tanked Pest FI has more tank, and more DPS at most ranges if you don't care about utility modules, because you can mount enough Tracking Computers to give you as much effective range with short ranged ammo as a Mael gets with medium range ammo (and if the target closes you can switch to tracking scripts, too). Also, unless you want to put something power consuming in the spare highs, you don't need to use PG rigs or mods. Add in that the Pest is a smaller faster ship, and I think it's an attractive option (assuming an armour tank is what you want, of course).
Drunken Bum
#908 - 2013-05-16 23:31:13 UTC
Ronon Romanov wrote:
I think battleships need more shields, more armor and more hull. If you do to comparaison with navy battlecruiser :

Navy Brutix, Standard Mega and Navy Mega >

Navy Brutix :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 5250 / 6750 / 7125

Standard Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500

Navy Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 9500(-461) / 10500(-750)


Hmmm, ok, No body see something wrong here ?

Thats hose ****. I wish they werent even releasing navy BCs. They're not something we need. People are too distracted by new fun exciting things to see the problems those ships will create.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#909 - 2013-05-17 00:01:31 UTC
Drunken Bum wrote:
Ronon Romanov wrote:
I think battleships need more shields, more armor and more hull. If you do to comparaison with navy battlecruiser :

Navy Brutix, Standard Mega and Navy Mega >

Navy Brutix :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 5250 / 6750 / 7125

Standard Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500

Navy Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 9500(-461) / 10500(-750)


Hmmm, ok, No body see something wrong here ?

Thats hose ****. I wish they werent even releasing navy BCs. They're not something we need. People are too distracted by new fun exciting things to see the problems those ships will create.


Those navy bc's are crap and you're silly for thinking they're holding anything back. The Navy Drake is basically a drake with more tank, and thats kind of a constant across them all, they're not anything above or beyond a reggie BC, they just tank harder.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Pbatt
Back To Basics.
#910 - 2013-05-17 00:28:51 UTC
Has anyone built an EFT changelog for this? I don't know enough about the program to do it myself :(
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#911 - 2013-05-17 00:28:52 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Drunken Bum wrote:
Ronon Romanov wrote:
I think battleships need more shields, more armor and more hull. If you do to comparaison with navy battlecruiser :

Navy Brutix, Standard Mega and Navy Mega >

Navy Brutix :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 5250 / 6750 / 7125

Standard Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500

Navy Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 9500(-461) / 10500(-750)


Hmmm, ok, No body see something wrong here ?

Thats hose ****. I wish they werent even releasing navy BCs. They're not something we need. People are too distracted by new fun exciting things to see the problems those ships will create.


Those navy bc's are crap and you're silly for thinking they're holding anything back. The Navy Drake is basically a drake with more tank, and thats kind of a constant across them all, they're not anything above or beyond a reggie BC, they just tank harder.

Ahem, have you tried fitting the Navy Drake yet? Well it's funny because it has LESS ehp and maximum dps as regular Drake Blink

Caldari ships are now the big bad missile spewers that go after smaller ships because they can't compete with the same size ones Twisted
Pbatt
Back To Basics.
#912 - 2013-05-17 00:31:07 UTC
stupid double post
Suliux
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#913 - 2013-05-17 00:56:55 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

....

TEMPEST FLEET ISSUE
The Tempest Fleet Issue is becoming Minmatar’s ‘combat’ battleship,and as a result will move more solidly into a role that it already takes on as a very strong projectile platform with an armor base – something that is difficult to find elsewhere. The Tempest, as always, wants to occupy a space between attack and combat, and therefor has unusually high speed and unusually low sig for its role.

...


Stop shoehorning Minmatar ships into specific roles. Of all the races, they are the ones who can reliably shield (don't I remember some dev post a few months ago saying minmatar == active shield race) OR armor tank, be attack OR combat, and generally just surprise the hell out of the opponents. I.e. the best skirmish race.

Tempest still sucks across the board. I bet it will go out this way and get the Stabber treatment. Six months to a year down the road we'll see an "ok - you were right, perhaps the tempest hull revamps did suck - here's some more drone bandwidth to compensate". Once upon a time it was about the only true attack BS and one that could hang w/ small BC/cruiser gang. Now we're throwing all that out the window and making it a hard to polish turd ... what fun.

When did the balancing initiative turn into a homogenization initiative? You started out so well w/ the frig and cruiser stuff. Where did all that initiative and creativity go?

My two cents - flame away.

P.S. Minmatar FW pilot WTS Fleet Tempest BPCs - any takers?
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#914 - 2013-05-17 01:21:39 UTC
I'm confused. You're complaining because the Tempest FI lost a tiny bit of speed and some agility, got a little 'fatter', and in return got easier fitting, a cap buff, a tank/EHP buff, and a sensor buff. The only bit that seems at all hurtfull is the agility nerf, and the buffs are quite nice. And how in the heck is that 'shoehorning'?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#915 - 2013-05-17 02:57:24 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Drunken Bum wrote:
Ronon Romanov wrote:
I think battleships need more shields, more armor and more hull. If you do to comparaison with navy battlecruiser :

Navy Brutix, Standard Mega and Navy Mega >

Navy Brutix :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 5250 / 6750 / 7125

Standard Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500

Navy Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 9500(-461) / 10500(-750)


Hmmm, ok, No body see something wrong here ?

Thats hose ****. I wish they werent even releasing navy BCs. They're not something we need. People are too distracted by new fun exciting things to see the problems those ships will create.


Those navy bc's are crap and you're silly for thinking they're holding anything back. The Navy Drake is basically a drake with more tank, and thats kind of a constant across them all, they're not anything above or beyond a reggie BC, they just tank harder.


the only one i see that got a real boost is the brutix. 37.5% tracking when you dont even use the tanking bonus is nice.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#916 - 2013-05-17 03:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Why on earth did you NERF the tempest fleet issue? It wasn't very good to begin with... I'd even go as far as to say it was crap. Outclassed in damage by the Maelstrom and slower and less agile than the typhoon.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#917 - 2013-05-17 04:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why on earth did you NERF the tempest fleet issue? It wasn't very good to begin with... I'd even go as far as to say it was crap. Outclassed in damage by the Maelstrom and slower and less agile than the typhoon.


You don't say "Typhoon FI", so I'll assume you mean the standard Typhoon, and so... comparing the new Tempest FI with the new Typhoon: The TFI is not slower than the Phoon. It is less agile, but the TFI is being explictly redesigned as a combat BS, unlike the basic Tempest & Typhoon, and the Typhoon FI, and so it should be less agile.

As for it doing less damage than the Maelstrom - yes it does, but it's easier to fit. An AC TFI can mount a pair of heavy neuts as well with ease, web and point (and a painter for good measure), and more tank than a Maelstrom, at the cost of ~6% DPS. As arty platforms the TFI is smaller, more agile, and faster than a Mael, can put drone range boosters in it utility highs and thus apply drone damage much further, and if you want you can trade tank for range or DPS from the guns (or, by trading enough range, use Fusion/Phased Plasma at ranges where the Mael needs to use Titanium Sabot). Oh, and the Mael needs to use PG rigs or mods, and the TFI doesn't, so where's this 'outclassed' coming from?

I think a lot of people in this thread haven't bothered to actually compare the ships before complaining.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#918 - 2013-05-17 04:15:19 UTC
TehCloud wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
TehCloud wrote:
...all those CNR lunatics...
I guess a lot of CNR owners love their ship.

Then they should at least understand that with the changes to cruise missiles and the new bonus they'll deal more dps than before.

In PvP they can apply their damage better and therefor be of more use against subcaps, in pve they clear the npcs faster.

Just because 7x 1.25 is less than 8 doesn't mean it's worse. Problem is only about 0.5% of the people in here do even understand what the new bonus on the CNR does mean in terms of damage dealt.

...

What?

7 x 1.25 is larger than 8, to begin with. It's 8.75, just so you know. Also, the current CNR has a 25% bonus to rate of fire. You calculate that by making it 7 / 0.75, which is even larger at 9.33333(repeating). So the new CNR is losing DPS.

And go ahead and go "Oh, cruise missile buff, DPS is bigger baddies, learn to play" and all that, but the fact remains that if they left the CNR as it is now, and went through with the cruise missile buff, it'd have even more damage than the future CNR as well. That's why most people want the old CNR. It had a distinct role as a high damage missile spewer, not as a Golem-liteTM.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#919 - 2013-05-17 05:12:08 UTC
After reading several comments about the focus of some of the Caldari Navy ships now being oriented on "hitting smaller ships" I just have one question. How do these changes affect people using T2 launchers and the heavy damage ammo intended for hitting larger targets? Wouldn't these bonuses help off-set some of the penalties associated with the heavy damage ammos thereby making them more useful against same-sized opponents as the Caldari ship firing them?

Just a thought.
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#920 - 2013-05-17 05:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Altimo
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why on earth did you NERF the tempest fleet issue? It wasn't very good to begin with... I'd even go as far as to say it was crap. Outclassed in damage by the Maelstrom and slower and less agile than the typhoon.


You don't say "Typhoon FI", so I'll assume you mean the standard Typhoon, and so... comparing the new Tempest FI with the new Typhoon: The TFI is not slower than the Phoon. It is less agile, but the TFI is being explictly redesigned as a combat BS, unlike the basic Tempest & Typhoon, and the Typhoon FI, and so it should be less agile.

As for it doing less damage than the Maelstrom - yes it does, but it's easier to fit. An AC TFI can mount a pair of heavy neuts as well with ease, web and point (and a painter for good measure), and more tank than a Maelstrom, at the cost of ~6% DPS. As arty platforms the TFI is smaller, more agile, and faster than a Mael, can put drone range boosters in it utility highs and thus apply drone damage much further, and if you want you can trade tank for range or DPS from the guns (or, by trading enough range, use Fusion/Phased Plasma at ranges where the Mael needs to use Titanium Sabot). Oh, and the Mael needs to use PG rigs or mods, and the TFI doesn't, so where's this 'outclassed' coming from?

I think a lot of people in this thread haven't bothered to actually compare the ships before complaining.


More tank than a maelstrom? Uh, I don't think so, the mael gets a shield boost bonus, the tank on a mael depending on how you set it up is far superior to the Tempest fleet issue, provided you set up the maelstrom for tank.

If I want a smaller faster and more agile battleship, then I'll use a tornado, why would I spend 500 mill on a paper tanked fleet tempest? just because it has an extra low slot, but is virtually the same ship? Uh no I don't think so. Seriously if your suggesting we use this as a speedy armor tanked battleship, it's not going to work so well, feel free to try it yourself, you can right now on the regular server, never mind the test server.

The Mael uses 8 turret slots which is where most of the cpu consumption goes, along with the MWD or XLASB's that you fit on them. And hey guess what, when you set it up for tank, you can still squeeze a lot of dps out of it because its a shield tanked ship. But other than that, there is no problem fitting the maelstrom.

I can also trade tank for range and more dps on the maelstrom as well. I haven't ever needed to use PG rigs for any AC fit, a couple of cpu mods and that's it, for 8 1400's one pg rig is all I need, all depending on what I'm doing with my tank, but if I'm using those then I'm probably a sniper and not well designed to tank.

The TFI is outclassed because for its given role other ships are just plain better, like the other navy battleships for instance. They shine in their roles far better than a tempest will shine in its own role, fleet or regular.

So no, the problem is we have compared the tempest to the other ships, and have found that it just does not come out on top. For a navy battleship it is underwhelming, and it's not something even worth using for PVP not even with the two utility highs on it. A Typhoon fleet issue has utility highs for whatever you decide to do with it just like the tempest, and it's already a far superior ship in its own role then the tempest is in its role.