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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#881 - 2013-05-16 13:20:09 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:

torps are not bad on a raven or stealth bombers... cuss of the range bonus they get

but on a phoon... i am not sure i would use them mainly because they lack critical range to be usefull for a large weapon.

if it were up to me i would just increase flight time for torps so they can hit up to 35ish km on unbonused ships... then reduce the bonus on the stealth bombers so they dont get too much of a boost...

i would not mind a raven that can shoot torps out to 52km...

Flight time is a bad idea - they already take ages to land. Instead, I suggest a 50% flight velocity buff - this gives them the same speed as rockets and HAMs, and their range follows a sensible progression. Also, this would buff their current 20km range to 30km, and their range in a Raven from ~30km to ~45km. If this gives too much range to stealth bombers, adjusting their bonus down a little should be fairly simple - removing the flight time bonus would do the trick.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#882 - 2013-05-16 13:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Oramara
Deerin wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application.


The overwhelming DPS difference is (1.375/1.333) =%3.1
I think the exp radius bonus (which is also a 1/0.75=1.333 magnitude bonus) is far superior to this.
Also you can fit more BCU's to a CNR. 4 BCU's on fleet phoon = no place for armor tank and using 5 meds for shield tank = no place for target painter(s).

Fleet phoon also has quite low PG so I don't really think it can replace TFI as a projectile boat. Maybe the XLASB fits might work in fleet phoon's favor due to high CPU but that's it.

Speaking of CPU, CNR needs a CPU boost.

Your math sucks, factor in the tp's and rigs and then try to tell me that the CNR has superior damage. Even with 3 BCU's TFI will have superior damage but you sure can squeeze the fourth in there too.


My math is math. I'm telling you assuming both ships actually apply their damage (which CNR can do MUCH easier thanks to exp radius bonus.)

Even adding 3rd BCU on a fleet phoon is stretching it too far as you'll not be achieving any decent armor tank, yet you are talking about putting 4th....and a 4bcu cnr outdps's a 3bcu Fphoon by the same overwhelming amount: %3

CNR can field 3 gardes whereas Fphoon can wield 5 gardes This is a 120 DPS difference to a range to a limited range with limited damage application.

A cruise phoon with 2 bcu's deals 1060 dps with furies and gardes, where a CNR with 4bcu's deals 1059 DPS with furies and gardes. There is an overwhelming 1 dps difference.

Looks to me that you are purposely fitting the TFI with CNR mindset and dumbing it down while playing CNR strenghts. Show the fits that you have there and make me believe then.

Edit: Since you did not want to post your fit here i played with eft myself.

The result? TFI 1175 dps with just 2 BCU furies, gardes and 1200mm artys including two TP. All this with 151k ehp vs CNR 137k ehp. And you can easily get even more dps by reducing the tank a little. Something that the CNR can't do.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#883 - 2013-05-16 13:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Onnen Mentar wrote:
Overall the changes look ok to me. Still sad to lose the swiss-knife phoon obviously. :( In case you wonder where the swiss-knife aspect came from: 3 unbonused high slots to do with as you please ;)

You can fit the highs just as you do now, lose nothing, and probably gain some DPS with your primary weapons. I fail to see the grounds for your complaint.

In terms of highs, the Phoon FI is going to be simply better than it is now.

Tek Handle wrote:

Why would you trade off a Low Slot for another Med Slot on the Typhoon FI? Straight
I have no idea. Me, I prefer the current 8/4/8 layout - a really strong armour tank, or a moderate one and tons of DPS. This new layout makes it a Typhoon with another launcher/turret and slightly bigger hull bonuses (okay, it can be a gun boat instead of a missile boat, but there are no shortages of gun boats). About the only use I can really see for this new mid-slow is a MJD.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#884 - 2013-05-16 14:01:54 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Seriously, sometimes I wish that the guy that does EFT would just close it down and stop updating it so that you'd all have to start understanding the basic principles of what a moving target means to your guns, compared to the numbers that EFT gives you.

EFT has the ability to show graphs of DPS over range vs various targets (and thus signature radius, etc.), and you can adjust both attacker and target velocity. If people actually played with this feature more, they'd have a much better idea of how these things interact. About the only thing it doesn't seem to show is lost DPS due to missiles not reaching fast moving targets, and lost DPS with drones when they over-shoot or orbit too fast.
Icarius
The Wings of Maak
#885 - 2013-05-16 14:07:04 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Onnen Mentar wrote:
Overall the changes look ok to me. Still sad to lose the swiss-knife phoon obviously. :( In case you wonder where the swiss-knife aspect came from: 3 unbonused high slots to do with as you please ;)

You can fit the highs just as you do now, lose nothing, and probably gain some DPS with your primary weapons. I fail to see the grounds for your complaint.

In terms of highs, the Phoon FI is going to be simply better than it is now.


I agree you failed

On the paper, because you have a +12.5 rof (37.5 vs 25), you should gain 12.5 % dps, but with -1 low slot .... you have to remove some tank or a weapon upgrade, the last one is not fully replaced by the previous 12.5% dps and you have a 5-6% dps loss for nothing.

Once again, if the low slot is not removed, all the current users of typhoon fleet will be agree while the new users who want to use the new 6th turret or launcher won't be nerfed at all. The typhoon fleet would become better in any case. Stop smoke blue pill ccp thank you

Anyway, i will be agree with the new typhoon, because one argument ... it could have been worst ....
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#886 - 2013-05-16 14:27:00 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Just for giggles, how often do you think you have to inject with an injector?


I mean you shouldn't be MWDing around the entire time with guns blazing, and the current Napoc with 3x heatsinks and 8x MP II's can fire just its guns for THIRTEEN MINUTES with a MWD fit and not turned on.

With the bonus removed I would estimate that you can fire for around 8 minutes without needing a SINGLE BOOSTER
.

And then you inject once and BAM, 6 more minutes of CONSTANT FIRE.

I do wonder how many of the people crying that the sky is falling on the Apoc/Napoc have checked to see what difference their buffed cap regen makes. When I checked with the Apoc it had quite a nice cap life just firing its guns, and no battleship has a good cap life if it uses its MWD. Not one.
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#887 - 2013-05-16 14:35:45 UTC
I will focus on capacitor. It seems strange to me that ALL navy battleships getting their capacitor slightly buffed, but amarr ships opposite.

APOCALYPSE NAVY ISSUE
10% less cap use for large lasers
-50% cap bonus removed
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 7000(-500) / 1000s(-154s)
= overall big capacitor loss

ARMAGEDDON NAVY ISSUE
10% less cap use for large lasers
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 6000(+687.5) / 1100s(+125s)
= overall capacitor will get minimal boost, despite large lasers changes

RAVEN NAVY ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5900(+587.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
= overall decent capacitor boost
SCORPION NAVY ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+187.5) / 1100s(+12.5s)
=overall small capacitor boost

MEGATHRON NAVY ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 6000 (+375) / 1150s(-4.875s)
=overall small capacitor boost
DOMINIX NAVY ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+250) / 1100s(+12.5s)
=overall minimal capacitor boost
worth mentioning here basic Dominix has much better capacitor than navy version - why?
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51

TYPHOON FLEET ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5800(+800) / 1100s(+12.5s)
=overall pretty good capacitor boost
TEMPEST FLEET ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+187.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
=overall small capacitor boost

So my question is - why ships who needed their capacitor fixed the most out of all - actually getting worst deal in this "balancing" business?


Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#888 - 2013-05-16 15:04:04 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
wait... that navy raven.. got nerfed? what the hell? ravens with triple rigor rigs already hit targets pretty well with or without the exp bonus, it is getting lower real DPS an eight turret WILL NOT make up for the loss of a ROF bonus.

So take a Rigor off and add a Loading Accelerator.
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#889 - 2013-05-16 15:04:41 UTC
Question no2
Why Navy Apocalypse capacitor has not been upgraded even a bit compared to basic version, while nearly all other navy ships have their capacitors upgraded?

If we look at Navy Apocalypse with removed 50% cap bonus better capacitor in navy version will be much appreciated and in my opinion logical as it supposed to be upgraded version of basic ship.

( Navy Dominix with his much weaker cap than basic version i mentioned before)

Navy Scorpion is a bit strange too as it has slightly weaker cap recharge rate compared to basic version, but because it has different weapon bonuses it doesnt matter that much.
Drunken Bum
#890 - 2013-05-16 15:16:54 UTC
Meduza13 wrote:
I will focus on capacitor. It seems strange to me that ALL navy battleships getting their capacitor slightly buffed, but amarr ships opposite.

APOCALYPSE NAVY ISSUE
10% less cap use for large lasers
-50% cap bonus removed
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 7000(-500) / 1000s(-154s)
= overall big capacitor loss

ARMAGEDDON NAVY ISSUE
10% less cap use for large lasers
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 6000(+687.5) / 1100s(+125s)
= overall capacitor will get minimal boost, despite large lasers changes

RAVEN NAVY ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5900(+587.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
= overall decent capacitor boost
SCORPION NAVY ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+187.5) / 1100s(+12.5s)
=overall small capacitor boost

MEGATHRON NAVY ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 6000 (+375) / 1150s(-4.875s)
=overall small capacitor boost
DOMINIX NAVY ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+250) / 1100s(+12.5s)
=overall minimal capacitor boost
worth mentioning here basic Dominix has much better capacitor than navy version - why?
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51

TYPHOON FLEET ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5800(+800) / 1100s(+12.5s)
=overall pretty good capacitor boost
TEMPEST FLEET ISSUE
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+187.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
=overall small capacitor boost

So my question is - why ships who needed their capacitor fixed the most out of all - actually getting worst deal in this "balancing" business?



Seems odd to me the napoc getting less cap. Specially with the laser cap use bonus removed. The ndomi stands out as well. Its still a hybrid platform. Its going to use more cap than the vanilla one.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#891 - 2013-05-16 15:21:16 UTC
The amount of cap doesn't matter a whole lot, unless the buffs/nerfs are quite large. What matters is the recharge rate, and the Napoc got a ~7% buff to this.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#892 - 2013-05-16 15:22:58 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

CNR
The CNR has lost its way. In PVP it's completely outclassed by the Scorp Navy, Typhoon, and Typhoon Fleet and in PVE it's outclassed by the Typhoon Fleet and Golem. The loss of the utility high was pretty bad, but even giving that back isn't going to make a dent in the Fleet Phoon's superiority.


As a shield fleet ship the CNR is quite superior to the typhoon fleet.. (I agree with the scorpion but the scorp is also majorly OP so..)

I guess i could see it performing worse than the phoon at PVE (Its supposed to be worse than the golem) because of the phoons drone bay but... thats minor imo and i think the raven more than makes up for it in extra mid slots.


That's really cute. The Phoon Fleet ***** all over the CNR, actually. It's worse in PVE and PVP, in both damage application, speed, sig, EHP, and ... well, everything. The extra damage and flexibility that comes from that drone bay is really impressive.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Doctor Ape MD
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#893 - 2013-05-16 15:23:48 UTC
Meduza13 wrote:

APOCALYPSE NAVY ISSUE
10% less cap use for large lasers
-50% cap bonus removed
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 7000(-500) / 1000s(-154s)
= overall big capacitor loss


Maximum cap loss but better capacitor recharge.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#894 - 2013-05-16 15:24:14 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application.


The overwhelming DPS difference is (1.375/1.333) =%3.1
I think the exp radius bonus (which is also a 1/0.75=1.333 magnitude bonus) is far superior to this.
Also you can fit more BCU's to a CNR. 4 BCU's on fleet phoon = no place for armor tank and using 5 meds for shield tank = no place for target painter(s).

Fleet phoon also has quite low PG so I don't really think it can replace TFI as a projectile boat. Maybe the XLASB fits might work in fleet phoon's favor due to high CPU but that's it.

Speaking of CPU, CNR needs a CPU boost.


You're not counting the extra 2 bonused high slots or the much larger drone bay. It's really, really, really, really significantly better. 20-30% more applied DPS to cruiser sized targets.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#895 - 2013-05-16 15:25:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.


You would think so... and you'd be wrong. There's a reason Stoicfaux and I are both like hurrrrrr phoon fleet. The Phoon Fleet has, not even kidding, 30% more applied DPS than the CNR.

-Liang

Ed: And yes, this is with realistic fits in both PVP and PVE.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#896 - 2013-05-16 15:41:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.


You would think so... and you'd be wrong. There's a reason Stoicfaux and I are both like hurrrrrr phoon fleet. The Phoon Fleet has, not even kidding, 30% more applied DPS than the CNR.

-Liang

Ed: And yes, this is with realistic fits in both PVP and PVE.


Please do show my the solo Floon fit for a 10/10 DED site than can match the new CNR. i'll wait.
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#897 - 2013-05-16 15:49:04 UTC
Doctor Ape MD wrote:
Meduza13 wrote:

APOCALYPSE NAVY ISSUE
10% less cap use for large lasers
-50% cap bonus removed
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 7000(-500) / 1000s(-154s)
= overall big capacitor loss


Maximum cap loss but better capacitor recharge.


Thats fine, max cap loss better recharge, I never said its otherwise, but if you add on top of it 50% bonus loss, overall capacitor is weaker, a lot weaker. And my main point is amarr ships are getting short straw here, as other ships getting their capacior boost, small or not, still boost and NO LOSSES at all.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#898 - 2013-05-16 15:53:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.


You would think so... and you'd be wrong. There's a reason Stoicfaux and I are both like hurrrrrr phoon fleet. The Phoon Fleet has, not even kidding, 30% more applied DPS than the CNR.

-Liang

Ed: And yes, this is with realistic fits in both PVP and PVE.

Exactly, this shows up in eft over and over again. Add 2 target painters to the TFI and they help drones and projectiles too resulting in more applied damage than the CNR can do.

Knowing the range limitations of tp's however the CNR can deal it's dps to 158km with damage application bonus but is there any usage scenarios for it?
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#899 - 2013-05-16 15:55:31 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
The amount of cap doesn't matter a whole lot, unless the buffs/nerfs are quite large. What matters is the recharge rate, and the Napoc got a ~7% buff to this.


Thats fine, overall 7% buff (I trust your math) if you do not look at -50% bonus removal, if you calculate both quicker recharge rate but 50% more cap usage for guns (minus 10% from lasers rebalance) - overall capacitor is getting nerf.
And my main point is amarr ships getting worst deal out of this rebalance, nearly all other navy ships getting their capacitor boosted - big boost or small boost, no matter, fact is they getting boost, and no losses at all anywhere.
(apart from dominix which i mentioned before)
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#900 - 2013-05-16 16:31:26 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
TehCloud wrote:
...all those CNR lunatics...
I guess a lot of CNR owners love their ship.

Then they should at least understand that with the changes to cruise missiles and the new bonus they'll deal more dps than before.

In PvP they can apply their damage better and therefor be of more use against subcaps, in pve they clear the npcs faster.

Just because 7x 1.25 is less than 8 doesn't mean it's worse. Problem is only about 0.5% of the people in here do even understand what the new bonus on the CNR does mean in terms of damage dealt.

My Condor costs less than that module!