EVE General Discussion

Ok, let's say I choose NOT to dump all my ship/core/fitting/weaponry etc. skills on 1 character. Let's say I make the decision to have different characters for the different ships I fly. Bear in mind that I fly 3 races up to BS 5, and 4 races sub BS.

This means, using the new ship skill progression system, to fly all my current ships I would have to train at least 4 pilots, one for each race. Or potentially a maximum of 12 pilots (I'm merging Frigs and Cruisers since Frig 5 doesn't eat up too many skill points):

4x BS pilots
4x BC pilots (including CS 5)
4x Cruiser + Frig pilots (inc. all t2 ships)

On top of that, I would also have to train the following skills for EACH of my pilots:

Core skills: Look up core certificates, I have them at Elite, including Multitasking (LOL)
Drones: Apart from frigates (and even then a lot of them can use drones) pretty need drones to 5 and related support skills
Navigation
Weaponry support skills: BS/BC pilots would ALSO need t2 small/medium guns to get the large t2 guns

So you're telling me this is a more viable choice? In case you haven't realized it yet, the killer isn't the ship/weapon skills, it's the SUPPORT AND OTHER CORE SKILLS。 To have different pilots with less SP each, I would have to train the SAME support skills a minimum of 4 times. Why?



You're saying that the applicable SP caps out, and yes it does. Anything else put on my PVP character is a choice? Ok, so would YOU train up one race of ships, or one class of ships, getting all the support skills to a certain level, then retrain those same skills on a different character, just to fly a difference race or class of ships?

Please note that the total required SP to get BS 5, BC 5, Cruiser 5, Destroyer 5, Frigate 5 for 1 race is: 5,888,000 SP.

What I put on my PVP character beyond the core skills is the option to fly multiple types of ships, which I think almost PVPer does eventually. It doesn't improve my PVP abilities (SP does not have as much of a factor compared with skill anyway, so your point is moot), but it sure does cost LESS than if I had to create different alts to fly all the different types of ships I can fly now.

Also, yes, getting podded does cost me. I don't mind losing pirate implants/hardwirings etc, but when your naked clone costs about the price of a well fitted cruiser, that cost makes it silly.


Who gives a **** about crybabys?

So, someone points out a game mechanic which might be detrimental to game play, and you disagree by default because there are also crybabys whining on the same topic? Or do you merely disagree? If so, why do you constantly bring in whiners and ranters into your posts?

Actually, would you mind answering some questions for me, for the sake of discussion?
1. What's your current SP total (on your main/alt whatever)?
2. Do you PVP? If so, where?
2. Why do YOU think the current clone prices should stay as they are?
3. Do you believe that higher SP = richer pilot?

The argument for reduced clone costs is based around increasing PVP options for high SP characters with the intent of increasing overall PvP.

This assumes that PvP is a good thing and that more of it would be better for the game. Not everyone wants to see more PvP and it hasn't ever been "proven" that the current levels and opportunities for combat are too low. I am a PvPer myself and I think the opportunities for combat are about right, maybe they could be a little higher.

However the far more limiting factor for PvP is power creep. You see this when a young corp gets wardeced by an old one. They get massacred a few times and then they dock up. The older players are pushing 3 times the DPS, tank, cap etc from the younger players just based on the compounding factors of good skills, good gear, boosters and implants. One of the few limits on the older players is the cost of their clones. To remove clone costs will further widen the gap.

So while reducing the price of clones would open more pvp options for the highest skilled characters it would at the same time exasperate the problem of power creep. I think there would be no net gain in PvP options game wide from this change.

1. I'm not posting my SP total. I think the mean value in game of active pilots is 30 to 50 million. Which is almost certainly the sweet spot for PvP.
2. yes, null and low.
2 the 2nd. Because people that skilled combat pilots to a level that is difficult to pay for have had a lot of convenience for doing so. I think clone costs are a good balance for that. Also I don't think there will be a net gain in PvP from this change, although it may look that way because sooo many players at the bottom have become completely averse to it.
3.I think that high SP pilots have more options for grinding ISK, this makes it easier to find one that is enjoyable. Where as low SP pilots tend to specialize or accept lower income along a wide range of options.

"Enjoyable grind" is an oxymoron. No method (aside maybe from scamming) of making ISK is enjoyable for its own sake, because of how shallow this game is. The players who have done nothing but pve are unaware of this fact, because they never needed to spend money on something that wasn't necessary to make more of it. We've already established that more options doesn't equate to more efficiency. Thus the extra "options" thing is of no use to a high-SP player who needs to make ISK solely for the purpose of having clones to pvp in.


Why should players who only want to create content (for themselves and for others) by seeking pvp opportunities be precluded from whole sections of space just because they don't want to spend hours sculpting their wallets in solitude? A poor player, no matter how old he is, can save money on ships and modules down to the point of them being free (rookie ships). Yet with clones, he's unable to do that because there's a pricing floor that increases with each passing day.

You may not have noticed, but I have agreed that the costs should be changed or removed totally if it is affected PvP... on this thread and the other one.

1. 11.5M
2. 0.0 and low, but just getting started... dying. Three ships and three pods.
3. I have never claimed they should. I thought Unforgiven Storm had an interesting idea. Have you read it?
4. No.


Good enough?

His choice, but if has 200M skill points, knows the cost of clones, but PvPs anyway and gets podded. Then complains...

That is no different than a miner taking out a retriever untanked and losing, then complaining.

You know the game mechanics... what did you think was going to happen?

You do think that pvp is a good thing for this game, right?

Because you make it sound like you don't, what with the whole "well maybe he shouldn't pvp if he thinks clones are too expensive" line of thinking.


I believe that in the medical field this is known as "brain death."

No... you are not reading, but simply complaining.

For the same reason that players must train and save up ISK to buy better ships. The game environment is defined by its limits as much as by its breadth. It is frustrating not to be abble to go everywhere or to fly everything, but that frustration is exactly the thing that makes it fulfilling when you finally figure out how to get there.




I think that many of the proponents of clone cost reduction are after this exact thing. However content creation in Eve is also about destroying something that someone else built, not all of the advocates are benign.

And there are some very important balance issues with regards to Sov warfare, for large old alliances this change is a boon that will allow them to be more aggressive in future campaigns.

Its interesting that SW null got very dangerous a few days before the 30% drop! lol, let me find my tin foil hat =-P

First, I am told skills cap out for PvP and I believe it.

Second, I am/planning on putting as many combat skills in my PvP toons as I can, but I don't plan on putting non-combat skills in those toons. (I have seen clone costs.)

Let me ask you a question. Suppose CCP decides that clone cost are 'odd', and decide to change them and make clones cost 1M ISK for the first 400M skill points (no one is there yet) and 10B ISK for anything above that. Then in the future player A comes to this forum and complains that his 800M skill point character can't fly T1s.

Last month a new player came to these forums complaining that he took a Procurer into lowsec and got killed by a gate camp. He knew the game mechanic: lowsec is dangerous use an alt, etc. His complaints were the same: I shouldn't have to.... it isn't fair.. they need to change the game... etc.

Both know the game mechanic yet choose to make choices that are bad for them... by their own admission.

Do you support changing the game to protect players from themselves?

I am told 60M skills points is the max a toon really can use for PvP. So when my PvP toon gets to that point... why would I put more skills into it? If I did, knowing that it was going to cost me more ISK... who is at fault?