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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2441 - 2013-05-15 21:10:14 UTC
Great testing again, ExAstra!

I'm not surprised that you can't hit a ceptor with Curators, but the new Domi will exploit omnidirectional links on top of the hull bonus. The extra midslot just extends it's tracking advantage over Armageddons.

Both are obviously battleships you don't want to tackle in a small ship. Inties have better chances against Domi, but then again inties are bad at holding MJD fits.



.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2442 - 2013-05-15 21:35:05 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Okay, here's round two of my testing. Ships are fit the exact same as previous, only now with 2 Drone Link Augmentor IIs (each) and 1 Micro Jump Drive (each).

This time I used a shield tanked Stabber (purely active, no Sig Rad boosting penalties applied) as the target for the drones, switching it up a little. Test is otherwise the same, 1 round with mediums, 1 with heavies. One round with the target stationary, one orbiting 2,500m simulating scrammed, and one orbiting 2,500m while webbed. The stabber's high speed and lower signature radius, in my opinion, will make for a really good test comparing the Dominix to the Armageddon. The results will, hopefully (for the Dominix) show a clear superiority in DPS on the Dominix's side. I also did a test on Roime's suggestion of "fighting an interceptor by MJDing and blapping with sentries"


  • Stabber: Stationary
  • Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,100m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 28.23, with 90% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 34.1, with 97.5% accuracy


-Here we already see a huge improvement over the results we'd seen previously with the frigate. The Dominix pulls a VERY clear and concise lead over the Armageddon in effectively applied DPS. Although this situation is very unlikely in PvP, but yeah.


  • Stabber: Stationary
  • Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,200m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 53.18, with 75% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 61.2, with 80% accuracy


-Again, while the situation will be uncommon in most PvP, the Dominix came ahead the clear winner with higher accuracy and much higher DPS.


  • Stabber: Orbit - Scrammed
  • Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 950m to 1,700m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 35, with 97.5% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 33.02, with 90% accuracy


-Unfortunately, the Dominix not only did worse than the Armageddon here, it did worse than it did previously with the ship sitting still. It's entirely possible it just got really unlucky with the misses, but it still missed.


  • Stabber: Orbit - Scrammed
  • Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,850m to 2,900m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 52.25, with 80% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 59.45, with 92.5% accuracy


-Luckily (for it) the Dominix managed to reach out and take the lead where it really counts in this test: using oversized drones. The damage boost (about 11%) over the Armageddon isn't MUCH but it's noticeable, especially considering how much more reliable the damage was.


  • Stabber: Orbit - Webbed
  • Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,000m to 1,200m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 31.88, with 92.5% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 33.77, with 95% accuracy


-Dominix had a slight lead over the Stabber here. (At a point like this, the bonus, while noticeable, does not justifiably "make the Dominix a better drone boat" than the Armageddon)


  • Stabber: Orbit - Webbed
  • Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,100m to 1,300m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 43.63, with 70% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 61.52, with 90% accuracy


-Bingo. The real power of the Dominix's (tracking) bonus rears its head at exactly this moment, and it is at exactly this moment where the bonus for the first time becomes something actually respectable and not something to scoff at (disregarding sentry drones). That is a very distinct advantage on the Dominix's part.



So now with that test, we can see that the Dominix, against a properly tackled cruiser, gains a significant boost when using Heavy Drones against cruisers. It's nearly double the output of the drones you OUGHT to be using, as well. With optimism in hand, let's see if this bonus can also apply to Roime's suggestion of anti-interceptor combat, the glorious MicroJump Drive/Sentry Drone combo. In order to keep the test fair, Curator II sentries were chosen. The reason for this is, while they don't have the DPS and tracking of Gardes, or the range of Warden's, they offer a nice balance between the two at the moment. For the range they can achieve, they offer the highest level of tracking. And we need to keep the two ships AS CLOSE in performance to each other as we possibly can. Because if the Armageddon can do it as easily as the Dominix, then the Dominix's bonus becomes lackluster.

(tl;dr: I used Curators on both ships rather than buffing the range of Gardes on the Domi because even if the Dominix can do it with Gardes, if the 'Geddon can do it with Curators then the bonus doesn't matter [in this specific situation])

So here are the results:

Armageddon w/5x Curator IIs, Micro Jump Drive to ~100km from tackling interceptor.
Deploy Drones, and engage target, while Interceptor is attempting to cover the distance (smartly)

Curators Destroy Interceptor: Y/N?
-> N

The Curators did not manage to destroy the incoming Malediction. While they did hit and get some decent damage, an interceptor with 50% armor is tackling you just as easily as with 100%.

Dominix w/5x Curator IIs, Micro Jump Drive to ~100km from tackling interceptor.
Deploy Drones, engage target during Interceptor approach.

Curators Destroy Interceptor: Y/N?
-> N

Drat, the Dominix couldn't manage it on equal grounds. Still got a few shots into the poor Inty, but it wasn't enough.

[Another potential test may be performed shortly]

Perhaps I missed the part where you did a test with the Armageddon neuting the **** out of the test targets so they have no propulsion.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2443 - 2013-05-15 21:56:30 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
And finally, give the Dominix a boost to the use of EWAR drones (ECM, Target Painting, Webify, Sensor Dampening, rep drones, etc) per level.


You can reduce the amount for the ECM drone effectiveness from 10% to 5% or even 2% if you felt it was necessary. But if the Dominix could use ANY drone with a decent boost to its effectiveness, it could help restore that feeling of immense versatility it always had before the inclusion of the Armageddon. Because before the Dominix was the only ship that could use a plethora of drones to make its fits truly unique. I think CCP should consider a small boost to all drone's effectiveness for the Dominix, especially over giving it extra damage or allowing it to use extra drones. Those "fixes" are just too... linear, complicated (in the case of extra drones), and predictable.

What do you all think?


Would a 10% bonus to damage and a 5% bonus to most other stats excluding mass/signature be overpowered? For those who might be asking about the 10% HP bonus being reduced to 5% consider what it means when most other stats includes drone resistances and drones get an across the board 25% resistance boost for armor and shields.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2444 - 2013-05-15 21:56:41 UTC
Implying a Domi couldn't neut out a single cruiser.

Is it that hard to admit that the new bonuses improve performance of all combat drones, and not just sentries?



.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#2445 - 2013-05-15 21:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: DeLindsay
Quote:
You love the Domi change because you run missions with it (you said so yourself a few posts below).
Yay - now with 50% more AFK.

Since now the changes were tested on SiSi, it looks like we got it right originally: the tracking/range bonuses are relevant mostly for sentries. There is no reason to choose a Domi over a Geddon for PVP.

Yes the new secondary bonus is 100% meant for Sentries which is what most Mission Drone boats use, NO, I do not EVER AFK missions, I blitz them as fast as humanly possible to increase my ISK/hr.

The Domi will STILL be capable of more DPS in your face than the geddon after Odyssey, to the tone of a little over 1500 DPS with Neutrons/Ogres. The Turtle Domi's will not be effected in ANY way by the change (they actually get MORE EHP). DomiNeut will not be effected in ANY way by the change, except even more cap (although geddon is superior in that role after). LogiDomi will not be effected in ANY way by the change (except more cap and EHP). You see where I'm going here.

All you people that are butt hurt that you're losing the highest capable T1 BS (non-Pirate) dps in the game for PvP just make yourselves look even more pathetic. So what if the DPS drops from 1800+ (2k OH) to 1500+ (1.7k OH) with Odyssey, that's in line with the DPS from ALL of the other BS's used in PvP (incl Imps). On top of it all the Domi is getting a GIGANTIC increase in EHP and a little help with cap.

Quote:
Is it that hard to admit that the new bonuses improve performance of all combat drones, and not just sentries?

It will certainly help all Drones but not by the sheer magnitude that it'll help Sentries.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2446 - 2013-05-15 21:59:09 UTC
Shereza wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
And finally, give the Dominix a boost to the use of EWAR drones (ECM, Target Painting, Webify, Sensor Dampening, rep drones, etc) per level.


You can reduce the amount for the ECM drone effectiveness from 10% to 5% or even 2% if you felt it was necessary. But if the Dominix could use ANY drone with a decent boost to its effectiveness, it could help restore that feeling of immense versatility it always had before the inclusion of the Armageddon. Because before the Dominix was the only ship that could use a plethora of drones to make its fits truly unique. I think CCP should consider a small boost to all drone's effectiveness for the Dominix, especially over giving it extra damage or allowing it to use extra drones. Those "fixes" are just too... linear, complicated (in the case of extra drones), and predictable.

What do you all think?


Would a 10% bonus to damage and a 5% bonus to most other stats excluding mass/signature be overpowered? For those who might be asking about the 10% HP bonus being reduced to 5% consider what it means when most other stats includes drone resistances and drones get an across the board 25% resistance boost for armor and shields.


The drone base stats themselves should be adjusted, and not fixed with bonuses of a single ship. They are an issue an all drone ships, not just Domi.



.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2447 - 2013-05-16 11:13:08 UTC
Screenlag wrote:
Have the Megathron been nerfed even more? Only 75 BW as well as 75m3 dronebay? Wish we'd get that 8th turret as compensation. Don't understand why the hyperion is getting such an awesome drone potential instead of the attack megathron


You got 8% more turret dps and another low slot which results in quite a bit more dps compared to the current mega even factoring in the loss of drones.

I do somewhat agree tho, mega should be granted 25m3 bandwith and sit at 100m3/100m3. The extra 70 dps from a heavy drone would cure the severe case of whining that has infested this thread from the start.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2448 - 2013-05-16 12:00:12 UTC
Roime wrote:
Great testing again, ExAstra!

I'm not surprised that you can't hit a ceptor with Curators, but the new Domi will exploit omnidirectional links on top of the hull bonus. The extra midslot just extends it's tracking advantage over Armageddons.

Both are obviously battleships you don't want to tackle in a small ship. Inties have better chances against Domi, but then again inties are bad at holding MJD fits.
Thanks. And the test I mentioned I'm planning to do is basically giving the Domi a single OTL II and trying again with both Curators and Gardes (on both ships, but with only the Domi fitting an OTL as it has +1 mid). We'll see how that works out shortly.

Marlona Sky wrote:
Perhaps I missed the part where you did a test with the Armageddon neuting the **** out of the test targets so they have no propulsion.
Why yes, you did miss my comment on that. And every other comment I've made in this freaking thread detailing why I think the Dominix is not as attractive as the Armageddon (and why I am upset by that). Good job. You realize the point of the test is to check how much more effective the Domi's new bonus makes it vs. the Armageddon on equal terms right? Oh wait, stupid question, you obviously didn't get the memo:
Quote:
(tl;dr: I used Curators on both ships rather than buffing the range of Gardes on the Domi because even if the Dominix can do it with Gardes, if the 'Geddon can do it with Curators then the bonus doesn't matter [in this specific situation])
^^^ That same situation also applies to the light drone test, ie. if the Dominix can't outshine the 'Geddon on completely equal terms then the bonus is a waste.


Shereza wrote:
Would a 10% bonus to damage and a 5% bonus to most other stats excluding mass/signature be overpowered? For those who might be asking about the 10% HP bonus being reduced to 5% consider what it means when most other stats includes drone resistances and drones get an across the board 25% resistance boost for armor and shields.
Would it be overpowered? I can't say. But from what I can see, giving the Dominix a boost to all drone abilities opens up a world of possibilities for it to fit. It could become a TRUE Jack-of-all-trades ship in that aspect. It could rely on drones for EW abilities and its highs for DPS, it could rely on its highs and mediums for utility and its drones for DPS, etc. The bottom line is IF CCP were to give the Dominix a drone effect/stat bonus, it should NOT get an increase in Drone Bay. That's my personal opinion and I believe it's well founded. Giving it too big of a drone bay with a bonus like that WOULD be too much. But the drone "effects" bonus would put the ship back on my list of "Awww yeah" ships, like the Hyperion has now moved to because of its tiercide update. I agree with Roime on this issue, quote: "The drone base stats themselves should be adjusted, and not fixed with bonuses of a single ship. They are an issue an all drone ships, not just Domi."

Roime wrote:

Implying a Domi couldn't neut out a single cruiser.

Is it that hard to admit that the new bonuses improve performance of all combat drones, and not just sentries?
Considering I've mentioned this time and again, no, not really. I just personally didn't feel it was enough (and still think it's not QUITE enough, though I am feeling a bit better about the bonus after testing). The last real remaining issue is that the bonus doesn't help much against battleships. I know from experience that heavy drones don't really have too big of an issue vs battleships so it will probably yield the lowest improvements. I may do a less-extensive test on that just to be sure though.

Save the drones!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2449 - 2013-05-16 12:25:20 UTC
That's a good point about damage vs BS, tracking won't play a role in that. I'd expect it to die to the Geddon in a duel (iknorite, bs duel :D) unless you are able to exploit the tracking and webbing to dispose the opponent drones.

Then again, there are the sentries :) their projection is unparalled, and I don't really doubt that new tactics wouldn't evolve around them.

.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2450 - 2013-05-16 12:39:47 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Considering I've mentioned this time and again, no, not really. I just personally didn't feel it was enough (and still think it's not QUITE enough, though I am feeling a bit better about the bonus after testing). The last real remaining issue is that the bonus doesn't help much against battleships. I know from experience that heavy drones don't really have too big of an issue vs battleships so it will probably yield the lowest improvements. I may do a less-extensive test on that just to be sure though.

You are making a very great job with all these tests, but I think one test is missing : light drones chasing a MWDing frigate, because that's the best way, IMO, to get rid of a frigate, and I think the speeds and flight paths involved may show a difference between Arma and Domi.

Heavy drones on BS though, I'm not sure about the usefulness. Moreover considering the results with a stabber, a BS have more than three times larger signature radius.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2451 - 2013-05-16 12:41:57 UTC
Roime wrote:
That's a good point about damage vs BS, tracking won't play a role in that. I'd expect it to die to the Geddon in a duel (iknorite, bs duel :D) unless you are able to exploit the tracking and webbing to dispose the opponent drones.

Then again, there are the sentries :) their projection is unparalled, and I don't really doubt that new tactics wouldn't evolve around them.

Though the Domi could exploit its superior drone tracking to kill the Armageddon drones ! :D
Drone fighting around the ships, like in movies !
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2452 - 2013-05-16 12:55:22 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Considering I've mentioned this time and again, no, not really. I just personally didn't feel it was enough (and still think it's not QUITE enough, though I am feeling a bit better about the bonus after testing). The last real remaining issue is that the bonus doesn't help much against battleships. I know from experience that heavy drones don't really have too big of an issue vs battleships so it will probably yield the lowest improvements. I may do a less-extensive test on that just to be sure though.

You are making a very great job with all these tests, but I think one test is missing : light drones chasing a MWDing frigate, because that's the best way, IMO, to get rid of a frigate, and I think the speeds and flight paths involved may show a difference between Arma and Domi.

Heavy drones on BS though, I'm not sure about the usefulness. Moreover considering the results with a stabber, a BS have more than three times larger signature radius.

Well I'm not exactly finished testing, like I said. I figured it'd be more productive to get the basics down first (semi-tackled and full tackled) and work on AB/MWD testing a little later. The testing is kind of dull so I can only do so much at one time, haha. But yeah, vs Battleships the Domi's new bonus (both optimal and tracking) become slightly moot. Obviously Dominix still gets the advantage with sentries but part of the point of this testing was to verify how useful the bonus was NOT applied to sentry drones.

Save the drones!
Mata Hotaki
aussie1hi brett Corporation
#2453 - 2013-05-16 14:10:40 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:

Yes the new secondary bonus is 100% meant for Sentries which is what most Mission Drone boats use, NO, I do not EVER AFK missions, I blitz them as fast as humanly possible to increase my ISK/hr.

The Domi will STILL be capable of more DPS in your face than the geddon after Odyssey, to the tone of a little over 1500 DPS with Neutrons/Ogres. The Turtle Domi's will not be effected in ANY way by the change (they actually get MORE EHP). DomiNeut will not be effected in ANY way by the change, except even more cap (although geddon is superior in that role after). LogiDomi will not be effected in ANY way by the change (except more cap and EHP). You see where I'm going here.

All you people that are butt hurt that you're losing the highest capable T1 BS (non-Pirate) dps in the game for PvP just make yourselves look even more pathetic. So what if the DPS drops from 1800+ (2k OH) to 1500+ (1.7k OH) with Odyssey, that's in line with the DPS from ALL of the other BS's used in PvP (incl Imps). On top of it all the Domi is getting a GIGANTIC increase in EHP and a little help with cap.

Quote:
Is it that hard to admit that the new bonuses improve performance of all combat drones, and not just sentries?

It will certainly help all Drones but not by the sheer magnitude that it'll help Sentries.


No, that is not what our argument is about (and I am not calling your side "pathetic").

And yes, the new Domi is more "powerful" than the current TQ Domi, on EHP grounds alone. Nobody is disputing that.

However, there is zero reason to use the new Domi in PVP over Geddon - unless I am using sentries. Look at the tests in this thread, now with cruiser-sized target, too. Now, look at pros of each.

Domi:
Pro:
Maybe 10% more damage, if you are lucky and against proper (cruiser/frigate) targets.
Super tracking/sniping sentries.
Midslot.
Slightly faster and more agile

Geddon:
Pro:
Moar armor (6.25%).
Neuts @40K, for 10% Bhaalgorn price
Can fit either guns or missiles
Two utility slots
A LOT of PG

Would you, after looking at this, choose the Domi as your go-to BS for PVP? No, I did not think so.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2454 - 2013-05-16 14:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
10% :D

Domi does about 30% more damage with oversized drones against a hard tackled target. It will also hit support cruisers at range with 700dps. Perhaps it's hard to accept, but these are really good reasons to fly a Domi.

The Bhaal gets a bonus to neuting, Geddon only to range. Yes that means it can neut beyond long point range, but I think you overestimate the usefulness of this. Small gang tends to happen inside tackle range, and 40k is not enough to reach logis. It can fit more neuts than the Domi, which makes it better against caps and multiple targets, but against a single target there's little practical advantage from the additional neuts.

In the end this just means that there are two solid drone battleships, which can be fitted with same skills. Train both Amarr and Gal BS V and choose whichever suits the situation best.

I'll choose the Domi for general use, because damage application > neuts.

P.S. The only situation where you get any mileage out of the Geddon's neut bonus is when the target is between 24-40km. In every other situation it's completely wasted.

.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2455 - 2013-05-16 16:05:53 UTC
How about a drone speed bonus for the domi as well? Range I think only really benefits sentry drones. I know sentry drones are better than heavy drones, but this might close the gap a little.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2456 - 2013-05-16 16:22:36 UTC
@ ExAstra

That is why I asked. Forgive me for not keeping up on 123 pages to see where you mentioned this. Straight
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2457 - 2013-05-16 17:01:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
Roime wrote:
10% :D

Domi does about 30% more damage with oversized drones against a hard tackled target. It will also hit support cruisers at range with 700dps. Perhaps it's hard to accept, but these are really good reasons to fly a Domi.

The Bhaal gets a bonus to neuting, Geddon only to range. Yes that means it can neut beyond long point range, but I think you overestimate the usefulness of this. Small gang tends to happen inside tackle range, and 40k is not enough to reach logis. It can fit more neuts than the Domi, which makes it better against caps and multiple targets, but against a single target there's little practical advantage from the additional neuts.

In the end this just means that there are two solid drone battleships, which can be fitted with same skills. Train both Amarr and Gal BS V and choose whichever suits the situation best.

I'll choose the Domi for general use, because damage application > neuts.

P.S. The only situation where you get any mileage out of the Geddon's neut bonus is when the target is between 24-40km. In every other situation it's completely wasted.
A quick blanket check of the Dominix vs the Armageddon shows that as of all the tests conducted, the Armageddon did an average 30.67 damage with 83.19% accuracy. Meanwhile, the Dominix comes in with an average 34.98 damage with 89.86% accuracy (That's a 14% overall increase in damage with an 8% overall increase in accuracy). So, quite a bit less than 30%, but (let's just say 15%, for a nice number) 15% effective DPS increase isn't that bad, and is a bit more than I was initially expecting.

And the 24-40km application range is true only for large neuts, but the pilot has the options of twin mediums or smalls (lawl?) as well. I'm guessing you could downsize the neuts for a bit better fitting awesomes? Not sure cuz I can't figure out how to manually change ship bonuses and stats in Pyfa.
Marlona Sky wrote:
That is why I asked. Forgive me for not keeping up on 123 pages to see where you mentioned this.
Well the quote I posted in my remark came from the same post you quoted and commented on. And the other test was only 3 pages back (there's no way you could necessarily know that and nobody is holding you accountable for not seeing/knowing)

Save the drones!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2458 - 2013-05-16 17:57:51 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
A quick blanket check of the Dominix vs the Armageddon shows that as of all the tests conducted, the Armageddon did an average 30.67 damage with 83.19% accuracy. Meanwhile, the Dominix comes in with an average 34.98 damage with 89.86% accuracy (That's a 14% overall increase in damage with an 8% overall increase in accuracy). So, quite a bit less than 30%, but (let's just say 15%, for a nice number) 15% effective DPS increase isn't that bad, and is a bit more than I was initially expecting.


I did specify hard tackle, in which cases the difference is about 30%, or at least in that range with no calculators hurt in the process.

Quote:
And the 24-40km application range is true only for large neuts, but the pilot has the options of twin mediums or smalls (lawl?) as well. I'm guessing you could downsize the neuts for a bit better fitting awesomes? Not sure cuz I can't figure out how to manually change ship bonuses and stats in Pyfa.


One of the strong points of the Geddon (like you mentioned) is fitting, it doesn't really need to downsize neuts. It is a very nice substitute for a Bhaal for neuting because of this, not so much for the range bonus.



.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2459 - 2013-05-16 18:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
Roime wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
A quick blanket check of the Dominix vs the Armageddon shows that as of all the tests conducted, the Armageddon did an average 30.67 damage with 83.19% accuracy. Meanwhile, the Dominix comes in with an average 34.98 damage with 89.86% accuracy (That's a 14% overall increase in damage with an 8% overall increase in accuracy). So, quite a bit less than 30%, but (let's just say 15%, for a nice number) 15% effective DPS increase isn't that bad, and is a bit more than I was initially expecting.


I did specify hard tackle, in which cases the difference is about 30%, or at least in that range with no calculators hurt in the process.

Quote:
And the 24-40km application range is true only for large neuts, but the pilot has the options of twin mediums or smalls (lawl?) as well. I'm guessing you could downsize the neuts for a bit better fitting awesomes? Not sure cuz I can't figure out how to manually change ship bonuses and stats in Pyfa.


One of the strong points of the Geddon (like you mentioned) is fitting, it doesn't really need to downsize neuts. It is a very nice substitute for a Bhaal for neuting because of this, not so much for the range bonus.

I know you specified hard tackle, but Mata Hotaki used 10% as a blanket, so I just figured out what the average blanket increase was. And yeah, the Geddon has great fitting but I have no idea what it's like trying to make one atm, was mostly just trying to dream up a situation. For example: a triple rep vampire torping brawler 'Geddon.

The Armageddon will make a really nice, cheap neuting platform though, considering it's everything the TQ Domi is and more, minus the raw hybrid damage. And let's face it, the Dominix is pretty friggin' sweet.

Save the drones!
mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2460 - 2013-05-16 19:21:08 UTC
the hyperion can use, one more medium,instead of one utility high slot
because, there more mids modules they can use, ( micro jump, ewar, cap boosters, eccm) than high modules.