These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#841 - 2013-05-16 09:06:25 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

CNR
The CNR has lost its way. In PVP it's completely outclassed by the Scorp Navy, Typhoon, and Typhoon Fleet and in PVE it's outclassed by the Typhoon Fleet and Golem. The loss of the utility high was pretty bad, but even giving that back isn't going to make a dent in the Fleet Phoon's superiority.


As a shield fleet ship the CNR is quite superior to the typhoon fleet.. (I agree with the scorpion but the scorp is also majorly OP so..)

I guess i could see it performing worse than the phoon at PVE (Its supposed to be worse than the golem) because of the phoons drone bay but... thats minor imo and i think the raven more than makes up for it in extra mid slots.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#842 - 2013-05-16 09:46:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application.


The overwhelming DPS difference is (1.375/1.333) =%3.1
I think the exp radius bonus (which is also a 1/0.75=1.333 magnitude bonus) is far superior to this.
Also you can fit more BCU's to a CNR. 4 BCU's on fleet phoon = no place for armor tank and using 5 meds for shield tank = no place for target painter(s).

Fleet phoon also has quite low PG so I don't really think it can replace TFI as a projectile boat. Maybe the XLASB fits might work in fleet phoon's favor due to high CPU but that's it.

Speaking of CPU, CNR needs a CPU boost.
Itis Zhellin
#843 - 2013-05-16 09:50:11 UTC
I'm a bit confused about the CNR, it says that it will have 8 launcher slots but on SiSi is still 7. Or the changes are not implemented on the test server yet?

Some fo you say that there is no use to use missiles on anything under BS's, there are drones for a reason. Well, a bomber would say that is not true by removing all my drones from the combat scene loling at my missiles.
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#844 - 2013-05-16 10:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zetak
Alexander Renoir wrote:
CCP if you want to change the Cruise Missiles and the CNR you should consider following:

I do NOT need any bonus which will ONLY work on small targets, if I lose an important bonus which will help me for big targets.


For small targets I have drones. Everythinig, starting with cruiser and all above, is already no problem for cruise missiles yet.
The bonus of Rate Of Fire is more important for BIG targets like Battleships than an explosion radius.
You can change something on the ammunition.. right. But please let the Rate Of Fire Bonus of the CNR as it is. In addition to that you do not need to change the slot layout for the High-Section of the CNR.

CCP Rise wrote:

We are giving the CNR an 8th launcher to make up for the loss of the rate of fire bonus, and replacing rate of fire with a bonus to explosion radius


This is not necessary but counterproductive. We have drones for small and fast moving targets. You should not shoot CM against frigates, WHAT certainly do function already now. SO please keep the slot-layout and the bonus (RoF) of the CNR as it is. Changing the ammunition is enough.
Thanks.


I honestly don't agree with this. Yes, my ship will have somewhat lesser dps, BUT it will do as much damage with 4 bcs as a golem, 8k to be exact with fury, and the same as a torp golem with javelin ammo. because ratts have one strong and two weak hp, the high damage is more important with high hp ratts because you can cut a huge amount of hp from the low resi hp of the ship with high damage, and that is the point. Yes Rof is a better bonus, but i tend to find higher damage much more rewarding than rof. The chance of getting an unlucky pulse regen from a ratt is reduced with this method.

The tradeoff is the 80 dps, but the toughest enemies the elite cruisers will be a piece of cake with the sign bonus even with fury. The biggest waste of time when doing missions were these high resi fast tough son of a guns cruisers. I had to waste a lot of ammo on them too if I wanted to save time. But no more!!!Lol If you can somehow equip torps, the benefit is even better. It basically gives a free tp worth of bonus. well not exactly that much, but you can get the idea. It is all about precision.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#845 - 2013-05-16 10:37:22 UTC
Itis Zhellin wrote:
I'm a bit confused about the CNR, it says that it will have 8 launcher slots but on SiSi is still 7. Or the changes are not implemented on the test server yet?

Some fo you say that there is no use to use missiles on anything under BS's, there are drones for a reason. Well, a bomber would say that is not true by removing all my drones from the combat scene loling at my missiles.

We have drones for that reason yes, we even have this ammo type called Precision but still everyone just seem to go nuts being able to hit even frigs with the same faction ammo... and we are talking about battleships...

In some earlier threads people had issue where guns couldn't track small targe butt you could still hit it with missiles, now you can actually hurt those frigs for real and people are praising it?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#846 - 2013-05-16 10:48:03 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application.


The overwhelming DPS difference is (1.375/1.333) =%3.1
I think the exp radius bonus (which is also a 1/0.75=1.333 magnitude bonus) is far superior to this.
Also you can fit more BCU's to a CNR. 4 BCU's on fleet phoon = no place for armor tank and using 5 meds for shield tank = no place for target painter(s).

Fleet phoon also has quite low PG so I don't really think it can replace TFI as a projectile boat. Maybe the XLASB fits might work in fleet phoon's favor due to high CPU but that's it.

Speaking of CPU, CNR needs a CPU boost.


Mmm I'm looking at my CNR, and I will be able to add an extra CML II launcher in without using implants/mods. It's tight though, and I'm using a Large booster, not an XL.

I have also raised the issue of torp launcher fitting costs with CCP Rise and he agreed that they're out of synch with the way that SR/LR turret fittings work. Whether this will translate into a change in the immediate future will be for him to tell us.

One of my pet peeves about missiles is that there are no low-tier options to enable fitting compromises.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#847 - 2013-05-16 10:49:24 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application.


The overwhelming DPS difference is (1.375/1.333) =%3.1
I think the exp radius bonus (which is also a 1/0.75=1.333 magnitude bonus) is far superior to this.
Also you can fit more BCU's to a CNR. 4 BCU's on fleet phoon = no place for armor tank and using 5 meds for shield tank = no place for target painter(s).

Fleet phoon also has quite low PG so I don't really think it can replace TFI as a projectile boat. Maybe the XLASB fits might work in fleet phoon's favor due to high CPU but that's it.

Speaking of CPU, CNR needs a CPU boost.

Your math sucks, factor in the tp's and rigs and then try to tell me that the CNR has superior damage. Even with 3 BCU's TFI will have superior damage but you sure can squeeze the fourth in there too.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#848 - 2013-05-16 10:54:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#849 - 2013-05-16 10:56:02 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.


I cannot agree more
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#850 - 2013-05-16 10:59:03 UTC
You thought it was RoF didn't you Liang? Lol

(It's OK we've all done this)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#851 - 2013-05-16 11:04:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.



Bad comparison man, just bad...

You're simply looking at the two ships in terms of missiles only. While this is a reasonable way to look at the cnr as that's pretty much all it is, the fleet phoon on the other hand has 2 free highs for nuets/turrets, as well as a much much larger drone bay...

Liang's original assessment is correct, the fleet Phoon is the superior ship outside of very specific situations.

P.S. CSM's should probably be a bit more objective in comparisons... Just saying....
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#852 - 2013-05-16 11:05:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.


Discounting the full flight of sentries?
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#853 - 2013-05-16 11:07:40 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:


Discounting the full flight of sentries?


I know right? It's very easy to "prove" a point when you ignor massive justified arguments coming from the other side...

Ships need to be compared in a far more objective manner Malcanis, you're simply comparing half of the fleet phoon to the whole of the CNR... Bad, just bad.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#854 - 2013-05-16 11:09:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.

How about you look at the ships as a whole, now that you finally admit that TFI does more missile dps then look at it's drone bay, those 2 free highslots which you know, are projectile bonused.

With the ships fitted the TFI will overwhelm the CNR in dps.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#855 - 2013-05-16 11:11:43 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Mmm I'm looking at my CNR, and I will be able to add an extra CML II launcher in without using implants/mods. It's tight though, and I'm using a Large booster, not an XL.

I have also raised the issue of torp launcher fitting costs with CCP Rise and he agreed that they're out of synch with the way that SR/LR turret fittings work. Whether this will translate into a change in the immediate future will be for him to tell us.

One of my pet peeves about missiles is that there are no low-tier options to enable fitting compromises.



Was that including the extra mid too?

With the best will in the world, a navy boat shouldn't need faction pimp or fitting mods simply to get basic, cookie cutter stuff to fit.

I can eek a launcher in my fit, but nothing really into the mid. The only thing I could to is go to launcher rigging V from IV because everything else, CPU wise, is perfect and that's with all faction BCUs and meta4 painter (RF wont fit right) Evil

It's a pure mission boat, currently running variations of the below (variants include DDA/sensor boost amp/something else I forget and a tractor) basically stuff needs swapped out though depending on mission.


[Raven Navy Issue, Current ASB]

7x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile)

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Cap Booster 400)
2x Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

4x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

3x Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

5x Hobgoblin II
3x Garde II

I could faction more, but I shouldn't need to in order to even get the damned thing to fit. After the changes I'll have a princely 61.03 CPU left, which I need to sacrifice 58.96 of, to get a launcher in there. As I say, all that I can improve is rigging V...and really, that's not making that big a difference.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#856 - 2013-05-16 11:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Johnson Oramara wrote:


How about you look at the ships as a whole, now that you finally admit that TFI does more missile dps then look at it's drone bay, those 2 free highslots which you know, are projectile bonused.

With the ships fitted the TFI will overwhelm the CNR in dps.


Don't forget that those projectiles get an extremely overpowered 7.5% rof per level... Why? Only bad balance devs know.

Fleet Phoon needs a nerf (change projectile rof from 7.5% to 5% as well as nerfing it back down to a 5/5 turret launcher layout), CNR needs like 30 more cpu, SFI needs? I don't even know, some kind of severe nerfing.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#857 - 2013-05-16 11:32:15 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

TEMPEST FLEET ISSUE
The Tempest Fleet Issue is becoming Minmatar’s ‘combat’ battleship, and as a result will move more solidly into a role that it already takes on as a very strong projectile platform with an armor base – something that is difficult to find elsewhere. The Tempest, as always, wants to occupy a space between attack and combat, and therefor has unusually high speed and unusually low sig for its role.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 17500 PWG(+450), 580 CPU(+3)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 10200(+884) / 10800(+369) / 9000(-961)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+187.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130(-2) / .115(+.007) / 103300000 / 16.47s(+1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 74km(+11.5km) / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Ladar Sensor Strength(+.25)
Signature radius: 350(+10)


giveing it some thought by compareing it to the tribal issue... which is powerfull in my eyes but only a little to powerfull for a navy

why dont just give it a 7th turret slot and a little more pg and cpu that would buff it into a good place imho
(i feel 2 utility highs is not good at its intended role juast as a cruise launcher wouldnt)
(if need be another buff one could buff drones to 100 / 125)
Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#858 - 2013-05-16 11:35:33 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


I have also raised the issue of torp launcher fitting costs with CCP Rise and he agreed that they're out of synch with the way that SR/LR turret fittings work. Whether this will translate into a change in the immediate future will be for him to tell us.

One of my pet peeves about missiles is that there are no low-tier options to enable fitting compromises.


Cheers! At least there is hope :)
Could you more elaborate on the second paragraph? Malkuth launchers require less CPU and meta 3 are a lot cheaper than arbalests.
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#859 - 2013-05-16 11:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Donedy
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.

How about you look at the ships as a whole, now that you finally admit that TFI does more missile dps then look at it's drone bay, those 2 free highslots which you know, are projectile bonused.

With the ships fitted the TFI will overwhelm the CNR in dps.

How about you try to fit a TFI and discover that "OH LOOK I DONT HAVE ENOUGH PG TO FIT ANYTHING MORE THAN MY 6 GUNS/LAUNCHERS!?"

And thats with only one plate/Lse. Dont even think about fitting it as an active platform.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#860 - 2013-05-16 11:41:14 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang


Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.


Discounting the full flight of sentries?


I specifically said "missile platform".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016