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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#821 - 2013-05-15 23:37:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
That said - I neeeeeeed my utility high and torp deeps.

-Liang
Laing, I don't want this to sound a certain way, but it seems like this is the crux of the problems you're having with the proposed CNR changes. If you really want a utility high and torp damage, maybe its better for you to stick to Scorpion NIs after June 4. It's generous amount of mids and built-in resist bonuses mean that you can use more of those mids on ewar/tackle and you still get the utility high.

The Golem by design will always outperform a Navy Issue battleship in PVE situations (and perhaps moreso once the Marauders get a balance pass), while its small sensor str cripple it for PVP. Again, by design. The CNR's sensor strength is 50% stronger and it lacks a utility high to make it a formidable PVP platform while reducing its overall potential by losing that utility high. It more and more seems like the CNR change is hitting you personally (meaning your personal playstyle with it), and that is where a lot of your passion is coming from.


I like how you point out that the CNR is going to be worse in PVP than the SNI and worse at PVE than the Golem. Where, exactly, does it state that faction battleships should be literally useless? The NApoc isn't obsoleted by the Paladin and the CNR shouldn't be by the Golem. I really don't understand why that's so ******* hard to understand.

-Liang

Ed: And the CCNR will be worse in PVP than either the Fleet Phoon or regular Typhoon. That's the part that's really cute. It really can't catch a break and the ship will come out of the gates completely obsolete. Right now it has a role - and it can keep that role. But if we need it to have a different role, let's do that. But wholly obsolete ships are bullshit and the reason we're doing Tiericide in the first place.
I didn't say it was useless. You did. The CNR serves as a long range, high alpha missile boat that can apply its dps to smaller ships as well. This isn't served by the Golem in pvp nor does the SNI serve this purpose.

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Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#822 - 2013-05-15 23:49:03 UTC
Well, does such a role point out a problem where several ships in the rebalanced naval and T1 lines are becoming perhaps "far too niche" for people to be really happy playing with them?
Alsyth
#823 - 2013-05-16 00:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Navy Apoc seems nice and balanced
Navy Geddon, the buff is much too strong, dronebay and amazing EHP on a ship that was already very powerful...

CNR nerf is unfair.
SNI seems fine, provided cruise are not too OP. But look at Typhoon first...

Megathron seems weak compared to Geddon
Domi seems fine, but of very limited use (in most situations, Domi, Mega or Geddon will be better)

Tempest seems mostly fine, if a bit weak compared to Typhoon, but....

Quote:
TYPHOON FLEET ISSUE
+7.5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher damage
+7.5% to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 7L(-1); 6 turrets(+1) , 6 launchers(+1)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 200



Typhoon fleet is looks OP. With torps and with cruise, and better than Tempest with AC.

You're looking at 1.7+k dps with no faction mods, only T2 torps and Ogre. And without even putting turrets!
The increase in torp dps is 24%, with no loss of drone dps.
With turrets, your are making it a 2k dps ship, with T2 mods.

How can you be worried for SNI after that? SNI has the same number of effective slots, but less drones and no turrets.
Alsyth
#824 - 2013-05-16 00:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
[edited, cf. Liang]
Caljiav Ocanon
The Holy Rollers
#825 - 2013-05-16 00:23:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Caljiav Ocanon
Alsyth wrote:



Typhoon fleet is totally over the top. You want to nerf that asap, or it will be OP with torps and with cruise and better than Tempest with AC.

You're looking at 2k dps with no faction mods, only T2 torps and Ogre. More than a Vindi!! And without even putting turrets!!!
The increase in torp dps is 44%, with no loss of drone dps! With turrets, your are making it a 2.2k dps ship, with T2 mods.

How can you be worried for SNI after that?? SNI has the same number of slots, but less drones, and a much weaker bonus, and no turrets.



With tech II torps, 1400mm arty, 4 BCUs, 3 gyros and 5 Ogres I am seeing 1658DPS at perfect skills.


Oh, and look...it's out of power grid and even needs a +1 to fit all that.


If you go for TII 800 ACs with hail it's still only 1743...a far cry from 2+k yet.
Alsyth
#826 - 2013-05-16 00:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Caljiav Ocanon wrote:
[quote=Alsyth]
With tech II torps, 1400mm arty, 4 BCUs, 3 gyros and 5 Ogres I am seeing 1658DPS at perfect skills.


Oh, and look...it's out of power grid and even needs a +1 to fit all that.


Arty? No drone dps mod? You're doing it wrong.

6 Rage torps
2 800mm Ac, hail
5 Ogre II

3 BCS
2 drone mods
1 Gyro
1 DCU

Shield tank. You don't care about point and web and painter, just have a friend in a rapier.

If cpu problem, go faction on some dps mods, it'll be worth it, reaching 2k dps after overheat... For PG use a rig or Genolution.
Oh and ofc, that's before hardwirings.
Caljiav Ocanon
The Holy Rollers
#827 - 2013-05-16 00:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Caljiav Ocanon
No, all Tech II...learn to read.


With your fit I am only seeing 1759 DPS....
Alsyth
#828 - 2013-05-16 00:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Doing the maths:

a T2 rage torp, with 2 CN BCS, 1 T2 BCs, 5% rof and 5% damage hardwiring, overheat: 175dps
a 800mm with Hail, 1 RF Gyro, overheat: 79dps
5 Ogre II with 2 drone damage mods: 467dps

Typhoon will have 6*1.375 = 8.25 effective launchers
and 2/0.625 = 3.2 effective turrets

Which gives 8.25*175+3.2*79+467 = 2163 dps.

Edit: a shield Vindi with a similar fit does 2400dps.
Alsyth
#829 - 2013-05-16 00:39:09 UTC
Caljiav Ocanon wrote:
No, all Tech II...learn to read.


With your fit I am only seeing 1759 DPS....


You wrote Ogre I, learn to write ;)

And do not forget overheat... I'm talking about pvp.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#830 - 2013-05-16 00:41:01 UTC
Alsyth wrote:
I'm a nice guy, doing the maths for you:

a T2 rage torp, with 2 CN BCS, 1 T2 BCs, 5% rof and 5% damage hardwiring, overheat: 175dps
a 800mm with Hail, 1 RF Gyro, overheat: 79dps
5 Ogre II with 2 drone damage mods: 467dps

Typhoon will have 6/0.625 = 9.6 effective launchers
and 2/0.625 = 3.2 effective turrets

Which gives 9.6*175+3.2*79+467 = 2400 dps.

Do you really want that? I don't.


The Fleet Phoon has a missile damage bonus, not a ROF bonus. I mean, it's still a monster... but not quite that much of a monster.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alsyth
#831 - 2013-05-16 00:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Liang Nuren wrote:

The Fleet Phoon has a missile damage bonus, not a ROF bonus. I mean, it's still a monster... but not quite that much of a monster.
-Liang

Oh indeed!
My mistake then, and apologies to Caljiav Ocanon.

Going to edit my posts to reflect that... I still think it's OP!
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#832 - 2013-05-16 01:20:49 UTC
Please make sure to update the new faction BS's so that their description is in the same theme as the regular BS's. It's a little detail, but the current difference is:

Quote:

Apocolypse

The Apocalypse is an Attack Battleship designed for fast aggressive combat.

Traits
Amarr Battleship skill bonus per level:
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed

Development
In days past, only those in high favor with the Emperor could hope to earn the reward of commanding one of the majestic and powerful Apocalypse class battleships. In latter years, even though now in full market circulation, these golden, metallic monstrosities are still feared and respected as enduring symbols of Amarrian might.


Quote:

Apocalypse Navy Issue

The Empire's inner circle of armaments manufacturers has long been proud of the expert methods utilized to harden the Navy Issue Apocalypse's armor plating and structural framework to such an amazing degree. Its shield systems are also state-of-the-art, rivalling even Caldari Prime's best. Fearsome by reputation, this is the flagship vessel of the Imperial Navy's elite wing. Not many are unfortunate enough to have ever actually met one on the field of battle, and those who do usually do not live to tell the tale.

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use and 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range per level.


Which should be:

Quote:

The Apocalypse Navy Issue is an Attack Battleship designed for fast aggressive combat.

Traits
Amarr Battleship skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range


Development
The Empire's inner circle of armaments manufacturers has long been proud of the expert methods utilized to harden the Navy Issue Apocalypse's armor plating and structural framework to such an amazing degree. Its shield systems are also state-of-the-art, rivalling even Caldari Prime's best. Fearsome by reputation, this is the flagship vessel of the Imperial Navy's elite wing. Not many are unfortunate enough to have ever actually met one on the field of battle, and those who do usually do not live to tell the tale.


Again, these are little things, but in the end the consistency is what makes it easier to understand and look more professional.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#833 - 2013-05-16 05:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Liang Nuren wrote:
The Cruise Golem doesn't need a MJD to hide from damage. (Neither does the CNR)

-Liang


Neither does Rokh, designed specifically for range, yet it still has a resist bonus. Wouldn't then an optimal + range in your opinion make more sense? :) Something similar could also be said about the new Apocalypse - it essentially has a range + damage application bonus, similar to CNR. Perhaps it's time to stop thinking of the CNR as that brick on the battlefield and figure out how to best use it in its more agile form.

For instance, two of they key issues with large missile ships in pvp is their inability to fight off small targets (specifically, very fast ships such as interceptors that missiles simply couldn't catch) and the way they're forced to either give up damage application or tank. Thanks to missile speed increase, the CNR will now have a very good chance of hunting down small fast ships and thanks to the explosion bonus, you are no longer forced to sacrifice tank in order to get the damage application.

Meanwhile, the same hull has a bonus to how fast missiles travel and less need for painters, meaning it just became more viable as a semi-sniper (which I kinda thought is the purpose of long range missiles - after all, if I wanted to be up close, I'd have equipped torpedoes :) ).

I expect the new CNR to fly much like the Apocalypse will - a fast, mid to long range ship with exceptional damage application and the ability to soak up at least some damage, while less reliance on painters and/or rigs islikely to produce some fun builds (I already have a few in my mind Twisted).

Quote:
Ed: Honestly, the whole mission MJD CCNR is just a terrible idea.


Firstly, I disagree based on personal experience - especially now, after the changes - and secondly, note that I'm not talking just about the mission CCNR, which you probably already noticed.
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#834 - 2013-05-16 05:58:51 UTC
CCP if you want to change the Cruise Missiles and the CNR you should consider following:

I do NOT need any bonus which will ONLY work on small targets, if I lose an important bonus which will help me for big targets.


For small targets I have drones. Everythinig, starting with cruiser and all above, is already no problem for cruise missiles yet.
The bonus of Rate Of Fire is more important for BIG targets like Battleships than an explosion radius.
You can change something on the ammunition.. right. But please let the Rate Of Fire Bonus of the CNR as it is. In addition to that you do not need to change the slot layout for the High-Section of the CNR.

CCP Rise wrote:

We are giving the CNR an 8th launcher to make up for the loss of the rate of fire bonus, and replacing rate of fire with a bonus to explosion radius


This is not necessary but counterproductive. We have drones for small and fast moving targets. You should not shoot CM against frigates, WHAT certainly do function already now. SO please keep the slot-layout and the bonus (RoF) of the CNR as it is. Changing the ammunition is enough.
Thanks.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#835 - 2013-05-16 06:18:33 UTC
So I finally got home and I'm taking a really deep look at the new battleships. Here are some in depth comments.

CNR
The CNR has lost its way. In PVP it's completely outclassed by the Scorp Navy, Typhoon, and Typhoon Fleet and in PVE it's outclassed by the Typhoon Fleet and Golem. The loss of the utility high was pretty bad, but even giving that back isn't going to make a dent in the Fleet Phoon's superiority.

Scorp Navy
The extra low slot appears most useful for using a co-proc in a dual ASB setup and it really enhances the power of that fit style. I am mostly neutral to the change because the ship was already very powerful in this setting.

Armageddon Navy
I remain unimpressed with the enormous sig radius and I remain leery of the enormous drone bay. I don't feel that it's a drone ship as others do, but that's a lot of flexibility.

Apoc Navy
I'm not terribly impressed by the ship on its own but even small gangs of these things are going to be pure murder.

Navy Mega
I'm honestly not sure what to think. The CPU and speed increase is certainly nice and the EHP hit isn't too awful. I don't personally see the ship as being changed very much - though I seem to recall legions of people that care far more about the ship than I do disagreeing.

Navy Domi
I remain thankful that this ship retained its gun bonus and the calibration change is certainly welcome. I've traditionally been kinda content with the Navy Domi but I feel the field is changing quite a bit underneath it and I don't personally know how it'll all shake down.

Fleet Pest
This ship is completely and utterly dominated by a projectile fit Fleet Typhoon.

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.

I'd say that the following changes really really need made:
- The Fleet Pest is underwhelming in its current role. I suggested an armor artillery role earlier, and I'd be happy with that despite the DPS loss.
- The CNR is underwhelming in its current role as it's outperformed by a myriad of ships in pretty much any role you'd want to use it for. The loss of raw damage, torp fitting nerf, and loss of utility high are all particularly troublesome.
- The Navy Geddon's sig and drone bay are far too big. Let's tone both of those down.
- I'm kinda scared the Navy Apoc is too good. But Amarr Victor and all that...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#836 - 2013-05-16 07:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zetak
Quote:
CALDARI

RAVEN NAVY ISSUE
The CNR will be Caldari’s attack battleship, like the new tech 1 Raven. I wanted the Navy Raven to get something new, and the new Navy Drake pointed in a pretty good direction. We are giving the CNR an 8th launcher to make up for the loss of the rate of fire bonus, and replacing rate of fire with a bonus to explosion radius. Along with the incoming buff to cruise missiles, this ship is going to be an animal.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Slot layout: 8H, 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 8 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 12000 PWG(+1075), 780 CPU(+45)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 10500(-750) / 8000(-1961) / 9500(-461)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5900(+587.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 123(+29) / .12(-.008) / 97300000(-2000000) / 16.19s(-1.43s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 105(-1.25) / 7
Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric(+.5)
Signature radius: 410(-50)


Hi. I'm loving these changes.

The expl radius bonus is exactly what this ship needs, also the boost to the cap is the most cruicial of the bonuses. It needed so-so badly. WIth the extra slot and the huge boost to the speed (it is really a huge boost to a caldari pilotSmile), I can now FINALLY equip an afterburner effectively, it really helps in the mobility while missioning. I brought up in my previous posts that the raven needs stronger defense, and the missile velocity should be changed, but now I can see clearly that it needed a cap boost instead. which the ship got. now i can mount stronger shield with this.

One thing though I don't want to be greedy, but I think an additional slight boost to the ship cpu would be good. I'm running a low powered shield booster+ancillary on missions to save money, because I'm more focused toward dps upgrades, and the cpu is very tight. now the ship has 8 missile and probably I will equip an afterburner, and I'm a bit worried that instead of cap modules I have to put on cpu modules, not utility.

I wonder that is there any chance or room for the navy raven (and the regular raven ofc) to have a slight cpu boost? An additional 30 or 40 cpu? what do you think?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#837 - 2013-05-16 08:03:03 UTC
What is the intended use for a Navy Mega?

It doesn't seem to have mnay strengths compared to other ships here.

What does "attack battleship" mean?

.
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#838 - 2013-05-16 08:40:25 UTC
Roime wrote:
What is the intended use for a Navy Mega?

It doesn't seem to have mnay strengths compared to other ships here.

What does "attack battleship" mean?



Well, it has 130m/s speed for starters. Take it from someone who used really slow ship (raven navy) all the time, 455m/s max speed is really good with an AB. You can have 5 sentry with this ship, while you are able to carry 5 med drone or 10 light drone. You can have an extra high slot of your choosing. 1 drone link for instance. you have +3000 base armor hp. whats not to like here?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#839 - 2013-05-16 08:45:44 UTC
I haven't read the entire thread yet and I know some people have nodded to it but I'm repeating it:

Raven CPU - WTF? Just WTAF?!

It's already a ridiculously tight fit, we have to eek another launcher on there AND a mid?!?!

If anyone suggests fitting mods, go and sit in a corner and reflect on your badness.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#840 - 2013-05-16 08:49:41 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


If anyone suggests fitting mods, go and sit in a corner and reflect on your badness.
Lol