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[Odyssey] Clone Costs

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GavinGoodrich
Perkone
Caldari State
#241 - 2013-05-15 21:19:38 UTC
+1 for the reduction, eager to see upcoming changes.

Haaaaaalp my head's on fire
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#242 - 2013-05-15 21:21:22 UTC
I'm glad you're addressing this.

I don't think 30% is sufficient at some of the costs we're seeing to justify major changes in player behavior.

Hopefully it does change some metrics enough for you to decide to put more dev time into this though.

Where I am.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#243 - 2013-05-15 21:45:22 UTC
I am actually surprised this was not announced sooner. Since racial BC and destroyer skills gets added -- skill point total increase -- you had to do this imho. Anyway good change..
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#244 - 2013-05-15 22:28:42 UTC
Great news, and a welcome first step.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#245 - 2013-05-15 22:36:03 UTC
It's a start, but doesn't fix the funfamental problem of punishing loyal subscribers for being loyal.

Considering the removal of a potential isk sink, I still think there shouldn't be a flat decreaee - low level clone costs should increase to compensate.

Also, this great idea deserves to be highlighted:

chatgris wrote:
Another suggestion could be that in addition to the removal of clone costs, the jump clone timer could be based on the distance you travel. If for example, you are jump cloning within the exact same system, there's no cooldown timer so you can decide "I'm going on a nullsec roam, and when i come back I can continue to train with my implants in". The further between your jump clones, the longer the timer before you can jump again.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Senva Talva
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#246 - 2013-05-15 23:12:51 UTC
I would radically restructure the entire skill system of EVE with clones being a side effect of this change:
-get rid of all skills (ISK to buy ships and modules and real life skill to not lose them becomes the new "can you fly this ship" determinant.)
-therefore, all clone costs are zero.
-clone loss is only relevant for implants (risk vs. reward).
Cainech
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#247 - 2013-05-15 23:36:12 UTC
It amuses me how many "You can't update/change a bad system because its badness is part of the challenge of EVE!" posts there are in this thread.

Anyway, I just wanted to chime in and say while this is a welcome change, I don't think it went far enough if you wanted to see actual behavior differences from the high SP players. Some of us will be still be paying more post-Odyssey than we are now anyway due to the BC and Destroyer skill changes.

My PvP alt for example, currently has 68 million-ish skillpoints, and a clone cost of 13mil ISK (Rho). Post-Odyssey I will be getting 6ish million SP out of thin air, and be forced to buy the next clone up, which after the reduction is 14mil ISK. Well sweet, I don't have to pay 20 million for that clone, but my clone costs didn't really change, so my behavior won't either. I already don't really like going out in t1 frig roams due to this + implant costs, I can certainly understand the 100+mil SP players never, ever wanting to go on roams like that, it just isn't worth it. (Especially if you aren't mega space-rich, which just having high SP doesn't guarantee.)
Atreides Leto
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#248 - 2013-05-16 01:27:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I just saw (thanks Reddit) that the clone cost adjustment for Odyssey went to Singularity with the latest update. I didn't realize this would happen so quickly and I didn't have a post ready so I'm throwing this up in the middle of the night!

Basically, for Odyssey we are lowering the cost of clone upgrades across the board by 30%. This is meant as the first increment on a more thorough iteration on the clone system. Our hope is that through this first step we will be able to establish what (if any) effect clone prices have on player behavior. If you have any feedback related to the clone system (especially in terms of how it affects your play-style) we would love to hear from you.

I'm sure image links are usually not ideal for dev posts, but it is the middle of the night, so here is a screen shot of the new clone prices proposed for Odyssey: CLONES

Yours,
CCP Rise


I have the character of my dreams, 135,000,000 skill points of pure sub-capital perfection. No jump skills, no capital ships, no Fighters, no Industry.

The worst part about this? I can't justify using him to have fun in many of those small ships, purely because his clone will cost 1-2x the amount of said ship.

What do I do? Use him to boost in a C5, and get a character that shall not surpass a 32m sp clone to fly many of the same things, without the obscene clone cost.

Thanks for enticing me to actually play the character specialized for fun.
Vajrabhairava
Perkone
Caldari State
#249 - 2013-05-16 02:15:20 UTC
Just like the old bounty system ("I hate you, here is free ISK to harvest on an ALT"), the escalating clone costs are opposite of what they should be: "Long time player, we will reward your continued subscription by making PVP too expensive to contemplate in anything besides a capital ship."

I like the clone mechanic - its an incentive to own space, an incentive to build stations if there are none (hmm ... maybe not good ... ), a way to travel by deathclone, and something to bite you in the ass if you are forgetful. All good, especially the penalty on being fail.

But ... the clone should never cost more than the ship! Are you *trying* to push everyone into supers or something?

--

Just cap the clone cost at something closer to nominal - a few million - and call it a day. Then we can all try out those nice new frigates and dessies ...
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#250 - 2013-05-16 02:56:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bigg Gun
you have 140 m sp clone you should pay more than the newbie with 5m sp's clone. I like the suggestion of the guy who proposed that the clone is a monthly subscription thing. Pay 1isk per 1 SP and die all you want for a month. I.e. that 140m sp char? Pay 140m subscription to the clone facility and die as much as you want. Pay 300 mil for 3 months, 550 for 6 months , i.e. subscription gets cheaper
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#251 - 2013-05-16 03:04:41 UTC
Bigg Gun wrote:
you have 140 m sp clone you should pay more than the newbie with 5m sp's clone. I like the suggestion of the guy who proposed that the clone is a monthly subscription thing. Pay 1isk per 1 SP and die all you want for a month. I.e. that 140m sp char? Pay 140m subscription to the clone facility and die as much as you want. Pay 300 mil for 3 months, 550 for 6 months , i.e. subscription gets cheaper

"Look grandpa, I don't care what your financial situation is or that I just sold the exact same cheeseburger to that kid for $2. You want the cheeseburger? That will be $45, pay up."
Maneck StreetPreacher
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#252 - 2013-05-16 03:07:54 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Just remove them completely and move the ISK sink somewhere else related to the cost of ships. That way it scales on the ship risked in combat instead of how long the player has been subscribed to the game.

I wrote an article on why clone costs need to be removed completely HERE. Of course ignore the idea of the insurance removal in it.

...
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Rise - Why did you not remove them completely? Why just the 30%? Sure suicide podding across the game via the abuse of clone locations would need to be addressed, but solving that has several solutions that are acceptable.


These problems have the same solution.
1. Remove clone costs, entirely.
2. Make the cost of changing medical clone location the same as the present clone cost system. Include a multiplier (formula is exponential) for multiple medical clone switches in X time.

Sink removed. Sink added. Anti-PVP mechanic out. Clone jump abuse mechanic in.
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#253 - 2013-05-16 03:32:06 UTC
Look grandpa , I know I sold that kid a 5 liter box of wine for 4.99 but you're trying to buy a bottle of '77 Chassagne Montrachet, JC dela Salle, of course you'll pay something extra, and yes it gets better with time.
Adunh Slavy
#254 - 2013-05-16 03:35:31 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Adunh Slavy wrote:

The bigger the ship, the more crew there is.

made me chuckle. :)



Would fix the whines, on both sides. Want to just fly a bang up ship on some roam, ok no biggie. Need to fly the BS? ok, more risk.

Could incentivise the use of crew too. Add a 5% bonous to all ship stats when the crew is at 100% capacity, 80% cpacity? 4% bonus, etc. Each crewman costs, from the NPC crew store say 100,000 ISK. need 5 on frigs, 10 on DDs, 20 on CGs, 50 on BCs, 100 on a BS. 500 on dreds and carriers, 2000 on super caps. Now CCP has an isk sink, there is a reward for blowing stuff up, risk can be calculated and not forced.

If a player wanted no crew, sure fine, they can do that, but have just base stats on the ship. Risk/reward is satisfied.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Olaf4862
Dragoon Industries Limited
#255 - 2013-05-16 03:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Olaf4862
I will say that my number 1 reason I do not PVP much is not the ship loss its the fact that my implants are lost so therefore I need to jump to another clone on a stupid time delay to just pvp and avoid loosing an expensive implant clone.

IMPLANTS need to be fixed to remove some of the risk aversion with loosing your pod. Making Implants a perma thing you tweak as you get more skill and are always there regardless if you die would be nice, but i don't see may players liking this as they cant get those expensive pod kills... however if you could fit multiple different clones with sets of implants and it gets replaced when you die would really make me more likely to pvp.

I would pay more to replace a clone with implants vrs just a blank clone to maintain my SP.
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#256 - 2013-05-16 03:41:21 UTC
My 2 cents.

If you still feel the need to retain some cost for a clone then reduce the clone costs ten fold. Make it a simple thing you do to keep your clone updated so you don't lose SP and no one would blink at the ISK they are spending after they get podded.

That said, if clone costs are no longer needed as an ISK sink then you should just remove the cone costs across the board. It is counter to the PvP nature of the game and the desire to allow anyone to use any ship any time (provided they have the skill points).

I fly whatever I need or have available at any given moment and don't concern myself with the costs of a clone. That said it does feels strange to be spending 20 million ISK to update a clone after losing a ship worth a total of 3 million isk including fittings and rigs. Some people can't/wont do this.

Any change, downward in cost, is a good change in the end.

Ashina
Saint Hecate
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2013-05-16 04:00:34 UTC
I think its a decent start. I honestly want to see clone costs cut down by tenfold as many have said or none at all. All clone costs do is hurt pvp. Im not going anywhere near a 1mil frig if it costs me 20mil to update the clone. Its a dinosaur of a feature and should be treated as such imho.

As a pipe dream kind of idea id love to see jump clones on a 12 hour timer. I think that would give better balance to the risk vs reward of jumping around. I know a friend of mine hates the 24 hour timer as he jumps to highsec to install invention jobs and then cant do anything for 24 hours because he lives in nullsec. I know he could fly down but going 40 jumps every day for some invention jobs is a walk in tedium.

Still a good start and i feel its awesome CCP is innovating and really throwing sand around in our beloved sandbox!

Best wishes
Saint
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#258 - 2013-05-16 04:28:27 UTC
Good form. But also get rid of learning implants and replace them with learning boosters.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#259 - 2013-05-16 06:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
30%? Try 90%. The current system punishes older players who want to get involved in pvp. Don't give me that 'isk sink' BS, it's an antiquated system that needs to go altogether. You die, you wake up in the designated station and go on your way, simple as that.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2013-05-16 06:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Resilan Bearcat wrote:
...In my opinion, clone costs should be... -edit- ....or set to a flat fee for all players...
No.