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Dev blog: Dual Character Training

First post First post First post
Author
Takumiro
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#81 - 2013-05-15 20:10:06 UTC
This feature should be free.

skink

Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2013-05-15 20:15:22 UTC
While this is a good idea, it still falls short of a "fair deal".

1 plex = 1 30 day subscription =/ 30 days of training time


I have 2 plex, a month, I can either have 2 accounts with 1 character on each training, and able to log both accounts in at the same time or i can have 1 account with 2 characters with both characters training but only able to log in one at a time. something needs to compensate for that loss of value, or I will not use it and keep going how i am now.


solution 1

1 plex on an existing payed account activates secondary training for only 2 characters 45 days

changing the subscription type to a dual training subscription for 1.5x the current price (ie. current $15, dual training $22) for the normal 30 days

Solution 2

1 plex on an existing payed account activates secondary training for 3 characters on the account for 30 days

changing the subscription type to multi training subscription for 2x the current price for the normal 30 days.


I would also like to mention the cost disparity of transferring a character between accounts, its 2 plex or $20 via paypal or credit card, well, there's a no brainer.

I am curious to see how the api pulls will be changed to cover more than one character training at a time.



Aiko Intaki
Lodizal Shield Tek
#83 - 2013-05-15 20:21:51 UTC
David Magnus wrote:
Aiko Intaki wrote:
Not a fan of this for the following reason:

- CCP begins with an arbitrary limit of 1 character training per account.
- Players get multiple accounts to circumvent the limitation.
- CCP sees this and offers to remove the arbitrary limit, for a price.

This, in my opinion, is a dark shade of monetization. It isn't as bone-headed as the monocle, but it's a ****** thing to do.

If there is no longer any technical justification or community/market concerns supporting the 1 character per account training limit, simply remove it. Don't nickel and dime us to get around an arbitrary limit you've imposed on us.


I doubt it was ever an arbitrary technical limitation.
It a massive game design issue - suddenly allowing 3x more characters to be training all at once has a lot of long-term unforeseen consequences I would bet.

I would agree, if it weren't for the introduction of second character training on a single account for a fee. Single training is fine and dandy due to any number of justifications, but once you remove that limitation by spending PLEX in game those justifications fall to the wayside and the limitation becomes arbitrary. It's little different than other MMOs which include steep XP curves, then sell bonus XP potions/implants in their online stores.

This feature should be free, or the limitation should remain in place.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#84 - 2013-05-15 20:38:09 UTC
On one hand it is some improvement, on the other autopause on currently training toon when we start another toon's queue would be magnitude better. I don't even dare dreaming about toon selection screen instead of logout/login hassle.

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David Magnus
#85 - 2013-05-15 20:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: David Magnus
Aiko Intaki wrote:
David Magnus wrote:
Aiko Intaki wrote:
Not a fan of this for the following reason:

- CCP begins with an arbitrary limit of 1 character training per account.
- Players get multiple accounts to circumvent the limitation.
- CCP sees this and offers to remove the arbitrary limit, for a price.

This, in my opinion, is a dark shade of monetization. It isn't as bone-headed as the monocle, but it's a ****** thing to do.

If there is no longer any technical justification or community/market concerns supporting the 1 character per account training limit, simply remove it. Don't nickel and dime us to get around an arbitrary limit you've imposed on us.


I doubt it was ever an arbitrary technical limitation.
It a massive game design issue - suddenly allowing 3x more characters to be training all at once has a lot of long-term unforeseen consequences I would bet.

I would agree, if it weren't for the introduction of second character training on a single account for a fee. Single training is fine and dandy due to any number of justifications, but once you remove that limitation by spending PLEX in game those justifications fall to the wayside and the limitation becomes arbitrary. It's little different than other MMOs which include steep XP curves, then sell bonus XP potions/implants in their online stores.

This feature should be free, or the limitation should remain in place.


I understand where you are coming from, and your point makes some sense, but I think it's more of a game design decision.
EVE has always been 1 PLEX = 1 Character training, and this isn't changing.
The only thing that's changing is what account that character happens to be on, and the fact that there is now more choice about how you train individual characters is great!

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Anathema Matou
Moonmaiden Ltd.
#86 - 2013-05-15 20:40:34 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Anathema Matou wrote:
This new feature has a UI problem. Please keep the option to activate dual training 2 steps away from activate game time, to avoid... accidents Roll, i.e. below the "return to redeem items" option.


There is an additional modal window which will require confirmation. If not these two, then there will be another two options next to each other. We discussed this internally but hopefully the modal confirmation window is enough to prevent mistakes?


As also mentioned by others: we already have the blatant Repackage/Reprocess UI fail. It would be very much appreciated if that mistake were not repeated unnecessarily.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#87 - 2013-05-15 20:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
For those saying "is it greed"... Yes it is greed.

Its smart too.

If they want to come up with some charging mechanism for it, fine.

I do think that there should be a "paid" option for it in addition to a plex option. The main account costs 14.99 a month, a plex costs rougly $20.00 (legally). The alt really should not cost more than the main on the same account.

If its 14.99 a month, throw the people who would rather pay a bone by giving a $10 a month option for dual training, so it would cost a person about $24.99 a month to dualtrain a account, not 34.99 a month .

(That's $35 dollars a month to play eve with dual training on a account that you can only log 1 character in at a time (the $14.99 + the $20.00 for the plex itself).

That is over DOUBLE what every other game charges for subscription of 1 account, and all those games went fremium.

By doing the $10 option, you would get more people who would rather pay money to you to dual train the character, rather than using ingame isk to buy plex, *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
The pure $ option would cause allot of people to consider just making a dedicated effort to just pay the cash rather than plex the account.

And to those who argue cash is stupid, if you had intentions of doing dual skill through plex, most likely, it'd be buying plex via Isk anyway, *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Just want to get more cash in your wallets CCP (and preferably keep some in mine :-/)


Here is my specific reasoning. 2 accounts is 30 dollars a month. I can validate the cost realistically.

$70 a month though for 2 accounts with dual training? That is more than my Gym Membership, More than my cable bill, more than my phone bill, internet bill, that's more than I pay for Gas at the pump to fill my car up. My grocieries are cheaper than $70 dollars. Heck a damn date's cheaper than my videogame bill. My headset costs less than $70 dollars. And we "or me specifically" would have to pay the subscription fee $14.99, PLUS to dual train an account... of an alt, THAT I CANNOT LOG IN AT THE SAME TIME, costs me 25% MORE than my account itself (or 50% if you have a year subscription). That is more than my Power Bill.

14.99 a month. I can validate that. X2 for 2 accounts that I use simultaneously.. ok I can validate that.

$30 a month for a great game.. Sure. Not a problem.

$70 a month for that same game to enable a "30 day feature", is LUDICROUS!!!!

Yaay!!!!

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#88 - 2013-05-15 21:13:45 UTC
cool stuff.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

CCP Quant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#89 - 2013-05-15 21:28:39 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Quant
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
1. This seems to be only usable with plex, will i not be able to use this with the Icelandic game time cards?

2. So you're doing this, COULD YOU PLEASE ADD A SWITCH CHARACTER OPTION??? =<


Bumping my question <.<


1. As far as i know you can turn the game time cards into PLEX, hence you can so to speak use them for this Smile

2. Yes this annoys a lot of us doesn't it :) some day... some day Smile

Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:
PLEX is fairly expensive compared to purchasing a 12-month subscription. Are there plans to allow someone to, for example, pay double the 12-month subscription cost, and thus enable dual-character training for 12 months? The same question applies for the 6-month and 3-month discounted costs. (I realize most people would rather just open a second account, and thus have 6 toons.)


That might be an option in the future if this works out fine. We decided to start with this and see where it takes us, but to be clear there are no immediate plans on going further with this.

Alx Warlord wrote:


The next big step would be allowing to merge all counts, with one Api, one login... I thing we all share this dream!

Fly Safe o/


I couldn't agree more Smile


And finally, to the few (some obvious trolls Smile) complaining about CCP being greedy with this feature:

We are not removing or replacing existing methods. Of course there are scenarios where it would be cheaper to sign up for a new account but then by all means take the cheapest path, we are simply giving you, our beloved users, an alternate way of training alts. Smile
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-05-15 21:36:07 UTC
Chribba wrote:
Should be interesting but I don't really see the point as it's basically the same as having two accounts?

I first thought that too but I can train up say a PVP alt to fly T1 frigs and cruisers to a level I like then stop training it. However, since I still play my main I still have the PVP alt to screw around with that isn't completely gimped....all while continue training on my alt.

One issue I have is the industry I do with my alts. Just the other day I wanted to switch what I was making, which wasn't very profitable anymore, to something else and he didn't have the level 3 science skill I needed. Had to pause, then train...switch back. Bleh...this will make it much easier.

Only question I have though is, is there a limit? Can you theoretically pay two plex and have two characters training forever as long as you pay the plex?

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

SunTsu Rae
Perkone
Caldari State
#91 - 2013-05-15 21:45:39 UTC
Aiko Intaki wrote:
Not a fan of this for the following reason:

- CCP begins with an arbitrary limit of 1 character training per account.
- Players get multiple accounts to circumvent the limitation.
- CCP sees this and offers to remove the arbitrary limit, for a price.

This, in my opinion, is a dark shade of monetization. It isn't as bone-headed as the monocle, but it's a ****** thing to do.

If there is no longer any technical justification or community/market concerns supporting the 1 character per account training limit, simply remove it. Don't nickel and dime us to get around an arbitrary limit you've imposed on us.




Yeah , like i said , FREEDOM !

SunTsu Rae Ensuring Rights, Recognition, and Remembrance. (Gulf War 1991) http://www.vfw.org

Anathema Matou
Moonmaiden Ltd.
#92 - 2013-05-15 22:00:59 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Anathema Matou wrote:
This new feature has a UI problem. Please keep the option to activate dual training 2 steps away from activate game time, to avoid... accidents Roll, i.e. below the "return to redeem items" option.

There is an additional modal window which will require confirmation. If not these two, then there will be another two options next to each other. We discussed this internally but hopefully the modal confirmation window is enough to prevent mistakes?


Actually, to elaborate why this is dangerous and, imho, insufficient to prevent mistakes: the activate-game-time also has a dialog box (even two, one for activating and one for the "please wait between consecutive activations"). People get used to quickly clicking OKAY on those. So having another option with a model dialog is not very safe.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#93 - 2013-05-15 22:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
CCP Doubled the price of a account and nobody is even twitching. (they actually increased it by over 125%).

Surprisingly come a few years ago when they planned all of this Pay to Play, the Eve Universe Rioted.

Yaay!!!!

Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention
#94 - 2013-05-15 22:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vorll Minaaran
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game.


Why not?

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either.

Well, that time should be shown too. Why not? And the players would not see it "all the time", just when their character sheet is open. Even then they would not see a time ticking down, just the expiration date and time.


I'll bring this up with the team again, since a few people are asking about this in the thread, but it's basically to do with verisimilitude or what things belong/fit in game and what things belong/fit in account management pages. So far with the exception of PLEX, there is little in game which references account management and that's intentional.

Showing things which are removed from the EVE universe in gameplay or narrative terms is something we have tried to avoid, but like I said we will discuss this and see if the PLEX section or character sheet is the right place to potentially show timers like this. There are a number of different views within the team itself, so that's one of the reasons we have held off on a timer of some kind.

Feedback like this is great though as it helps us know what you guys wants.


I agree, but we have Pilot License, and PLEX to extend, so lore wont hurt with a Pilot license expire date in the Character sheet/Pilot License menu. Although the description of PLEX dont fit perfectly into the EVE universe too: This item extends your game time by 30 days when activated. So with a better description it could fit into the EVE universe.
At least it could be on the character selection screen after login.
JediRobin
Globaltech Industries
#95 - 2013-05-15 22:37:12 UTC
Ok this sounds good but can we do the following.....

We have a paid account with say 3 toons.
1 is the main....with the main account training as we do now.
Alt 2 paused training
Alt 3 paused training

Will this new feature of 1 plex allow training alt 2 for 1/2 month then pause alt 2, and continue training alt 3 for the other 1/2 month..?????

If not

The work around would be to plex train our main alt for 30days, and use our main account training to train alt 2 for 1/2 month and alt 3 for 1/2 month then when plex month is finished on alt 1 we can then use account training back on alt 1.

Regards

JEDI


Nessy Bruemel
Doomheim
#96 - 2013-05-15 22:52:25 UTC
I like this option to train 2 Chars. on one Account very much, I'm sure i will use it on my Accounts next time. But one Question I have. When I get the possibility do skill my Alt account. I will do it all the time. What because you may not give us a possibility to rent an Account-abo, where this option is fix included for the complete time?

Sorry for my English I'm German.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#97 - 2013-05-15 22:56:13 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
1. This seems to be only usable with plex, will i not be able to use this with the Icelandic game time cards?

2. So you're doing this, COULD YOU PLEASE ADD A SWITCH CHARACTER OPTION??? =<


Bumping my question <.<


1. As far as i know you can turn the game time cards into PLEX, hence you can so to speak use them for this Smile

2. Yes this annoys a lot of us doesn't it :) some day... some day Smile



You can't convert the icelandic GTC's to plex...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

CCP Quant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#98 - 2013-05-15 22:56:42 UTC
JediRobin wrote:

Will this new feature of 1 plex allow training alt 2 for 1/2 month then pause alt 2, and continue training alt 3 for the other 1/2 month..?????


YesBig smile
Emrys Ap'Morgravaine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-05-15 23:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Emrys Ap'Morgravaine
Kip Troger wrote:


I dont really understand what is so hard about having multiple accounts.

Is this feature intended for players with multiple characters on one account already who dont want to pay to transfer them to a new account?

If I want to train two characters at once, i just use two accounts because that way i can dualbox them.

This seems like it will just let people not have to pay transfer fees - which doesnt make a financial sense from CCP.Question



I think its more aimed for those people who want to train something short on an alt, but who have perhaps not done so due to the extra cost of having another account and incurring the extra cost in moving the alt to and back from aforementioned account.

Especially those people who only have 1 account full stop.

So if anything, its more likely to bring in some extra revenue for CCP, or at the very least drive the cost of plexes a bit higher than it already is.

That being said, I do firmly believe that given the cost balance involved (which other people have already broken down on previous pages) that the 30 days should be "as used" as opposed to a straight timer.

In other words:

1: I activate second PLEX
2: 30 days dual training added to account
3: Alt 1 trains Skill X for 17 days.
4: Alt 1's skill completes. No further training is set.
5: 13 days dual training time remains in the bank waiting to be used.

Or, allow the remaining "bank time" to be added to the primary subscription timer.

Why? Because how often are you going to have 30 days exactly to be trained? If you're going to charge us essentially a months sub cost (and don't get me wrong, I think its a fantastic addition to the game) then make it flexible dammit.

Em.
JediRobin
Globaltech Industries
#100 - 2013-05-15 23:50:39 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:
JediRobin wrote:

Will this new feature of 1 plex allow training alt 2 for 1/2 month then pause alt 2, and continue training alt 3 for the other 1/2 month..?????


YesBig smile


Now I will love this feature.

Regards

JEDI