Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The argument is the same. We want more pvp so reduce the consequences.






People want the higher skills saved forever but they don't want to pay for it.

If you lost pods the same way you lost ships we wouldn't be having this discussion. The reason we are having this discussion is because pod mechanics in eve are bad - in that there is no skill involved. This is why people are advocating removing all consequences for their loss.

I am just saying ccp should change the pod mechanics so that they aren't dependant on your internet connection or client hiccups.

And for those who want bubbles to prevent pods from warping out - I say live with your decision but don't water the game down for the rest of us.

Jump cloning up for PvP generates at least two possible losses. An ISK loss if the PvP clone itself is podded and the training loss when you jump out of your super expensive learning clone for at least 24 hours.

A PvP clone loss is not a big deal if your space rich but I find the mandatory 24 hours of suboptimal training very annoying since it means a PvP roam will not only slow down my improvement but also requires me to make a log in appoint 24 hours hence to jump back into the training clone. PvP shouldn’t inhibit one’s training. Some way around the current 24 hour inhibition that doesn’t break the game would be appreciated.

(I’m aware I can PvP in my super expensive training clone and while implants can be replaced the humiliation at losing such a clone lasts forever.)

Roime wrote:
So tell me how much SP gain you lose when spending 24 hours in a clone with +3s or +4s instead +5s?



I've never bothered to figure it out. Annoyances are annoyances. Surely you're not arguing that CCP should retain a petty and pointless annoyance.

How can you with a straight face complain about everybody going carebear and then propose a system like this?
All this would achieve is to make risk averse players even more risk averse and create more carebearing.

Your system actualy rewards carebearing over those who constantly get podded in pvp fights.

I fully agree with you. On demand teleport is game breaking. What annoys me is the fact that current mechanics well-nigh require PvP pilots to literally choose to be comparatively stupid; especially if they want to PvP a lot. I’d like to see a fix to that very particular perverse incentive.

I'll be contrarian voice here and say I don't think clone cost reduction is a good idea.

Fundamental principle of EvE design is that defeat matters, this is what makes it distinct among MMO on the market. If one loses as ship, that ship is gone for good, and all the time spent to acquire that ship is waisted. This is what gives meaning and significance EvE pvp.

Price we pay when we get poded is just an extension of that principle, and removing or even reducing that price establishes dangerous precedent as it is contrary to before mentioned design principle.

Also escalating price of clone with increasing clone XP can also be viewed as extension of another eve game balance principle, that small improvement in power come with disproportionally large increase in cost. This is why BC will cost 5 to 10 times price of cruiser despite providing much smaller increase in combat utility. Same is the reason why Jaguar or Wolf cost 50 times more then Rifer. So by extension it is only right and proper that more powerful clones (with more XP) will cost drastically more then less powerful clones (those of n00bs with less XP).

I would warn CCP designers to be wary of changes that would diminish impact of loss, on any level , being it losing space, losing ship or losing clone.

That said there are some things that could be improved when it comes to game clone mechanics. I think some boring and tedious parts of manipulating them should be automatised. For example when I want to plug an implant why do I have to go through ritual of pausing skill learning, plugging whatever I want to plugin, then restarting skill queue? When I get podded why do I have to manually update my clone, can't that be done automatically with normal ISK cost being detracted form my wallet? When I clone jump why do I also have to do boring ritual of going to pod, pausing skill queue, jumping, restarting skill queue and then opening again munch of my station interface windows because for some stupid reason they close down when I clonejump?

So yes there are improvements to be made with clone mechanics, but those are not on the line of making combat defeat and loss of pod less sigificant events. Keep it real!

I think you underestimate how easy it is to avoid pod losses if non targeted warp disruption were to be removed. To hunt someones pod down would be a major challenge which would not be taken lightly. If lag is a problem then you could have the pod auto warp off after a one second delay after ship destruction making pod kills even more difficult.

The balance I'm trying to get at here is that pod kills should be much harder to achieve, but also should cause much greater suffering in the event of it happening. The current mechanics, and with the further lowering of pod penalties, is turning pvp itself into a carebear activity, particularly if penalties are removed completely.

This is a welcome step in the right direction, but it needs to go further particularly to help newer players. I've made these suggestions elsewhere before since I was a new player, but here they are again with 1 and 2 as the really important points:

1. Clone costs should be further reduced, perhaps even removed altogether, as they are a reason for players to avoid flying in space, both for newbros and vets alike. The people complaining that this removes "risk" and real loss from pvp are simply mistaken, as it places the risk where it belongs--losing ships in space. The current system gives people a reason to stay docked, and any mechanic in game which does that should be removed.

2. Skill loss needs to be removed ASAP. This mechanic only hurts new players. I think just about every new player has had the experience early on of venturing into low/null sec and getting podded, only to realize they did not upgrade their clone, thus losing valuable skill points. Getting set back a few hours or days in SP as a new player is a massive blow to what they can do in game. There is so much to learn as a new player in EVE that we do not need severe punishments simply for making a new player mistake. Make this happen CCP Rise.

3. Not as urgent as 1 and 2, but still important: the Jump Clone system needs a revamp. It needs to be more new-player friendly, both made more intuitive to use and less prohibitive for new players (e.g., lowered standing requirements). I'd like to see the system made very user-friendly, but I'd also (less urgently) like there to be more options for old players.

4. Learning implants need to go the way of learning skills. Why? Because EVE is going into its second decade and it needs to find ways to gain and keep new players—players, like me a year and a half ago, who often feel (mistakenly, albeit) like it is 10 years too late to start playing and being competitive in EVE. Having a gap between skill training times for the rich vets and the newbros only hurts the newbros. IMO learning implants should be tossed and those +5 amounts simply added to the base attribute amounts for all players.

5. I would also REALLY like to see a very limited skill reimbursement program put into the game, similar in limitations to the current attribute remap system (e.g., 1 a year with a few bonus when you start playing or at special give-aways). Why? Again, because of newbros. Newbros often training mining skills, say, only to realize mining sucks and PVP rocks, for instance, but then have to spend valuable time--time where they are still testing the game to see if they like it enough to stick around--waiting to get minimal skills necessary to PVP, say. A skill reimbursement program would help them drop, e.g., one level of one skill and then apply those points to other skills. This would also help older players who would really like to drop that 14 day level in some skill and apply it elsewhere.

Insuring a tech II ship is like putting on a raincoat in a tsunami.

Consequences in EVE should be the risk of losing SHIPS in space, or implants on clones, not reasons to stay docked up like medical clone costs or skill losses that add no content to the game whatsoever. Remove clone costs and remove the skill loss penalty altogether, as they hurt new players in particular. The added risk and the added isk sink will simply be the added amount of people in space risking their ships.