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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#741 - 2013-05-15 15:12:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Here is the main idea behind tiercide:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/9129

...and here is the relevant picture about Navy stuff

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

So current CNR is performing better than Golem, which is a specialized T2 ship.

After the patch it will still be a great improvement from T1, but Golem will outperform it at its specialized area.

/me looks at the picture again.

Tiercide working as intended.

They adressed CNR's shortcoming of cruise missiles for PvP. An inbuilt non-stacking target painter + very fast missiles for fast damage application. For both PvP and PvE it is a better choice than its t1 version, albeit at a higher price. The tech2 PvE ship outperforms it for PvE.

Yup. Working as intended.



I could buy into that if the CNR wasn't becoming just a ****** Golem. Roll

-Liang


How should the Golem be differentiated from the CNR?


Everyone keeps on harping about how awesome that damage application bonus is, so why not keep it with more raw damage but worse damage application?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
monkfish2345
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#742 - 2013-05-15 15:19:06 UTC
because that unbalances it's performance against bigger targets where application is not an issue.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#743 - 2013-05-15 15:57:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
monkfish2345 wrote:
because that unbalances it's performance against bigger targets where application is not an issue.



Exactly. Just because the navy raven was unbalanced in that way in the past is no reason to continue that situation. The proposed change works well in mutiple ways:

It makes the CNR an upgrade from the regular Raven (as it should be)

And

It does not allow a Navy Battleship to out perform aTech2 (longer to train for, more expensive) specialized ship. There NEVER should be a choice between a Navy BS and a Marauder if it's a PVE matter, the marauder should automatically win, where as up till now it's been a too up between navy raven and golem. (Hell, the PIRATE battleships shouldn't be better than Marauders for PVE, but that's another discussion, and I love my machs and nightmares and rattlesnakes..).





For those who don't like the new CNR, how about some solid, balanced counter-proposals for us (and more importantly, CCP ) to consider? Every other ship change being debated is ration, but the CNR debate is "but it's not uber anymore!".
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#744 - 2013-05-15 16:03:56 UTC
Guys, this is the "Navy Battleships" thread, not the "Caldari Navy Raven" thread.

Geez, seeing CNR in almost every post makes my eyes bleed. Please stop whining about the fecking CNR or start a new thread for CNR bitching and moaning.

That is all.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#745 - 2013-05-15 16:22:28 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Guys, this is the "Navy Battleships" thread, not the "Caldari Navy Raven" thread.

Geez, seeing CNR in almost every post makes my eyes bleed. Please stop whining about the fecking CNR or start a new thread for CNR bitching and moaning.

That is all.


So, the other day, a CNR, a rabbi and a priest walk into a bar.......
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#746 - 2013-05-15 16:23:37 UTC
Hey there Rise,


first, thanks for blocking me ingame and then killing my condor,


second:


I think the Navy Apocalypse is ... kind of underwhelming in terms of upgrades towards the Tech 1 hull. It basically just gets a beefed up buffertank and +1 lowslot for probably a cap power relay so it doesn't dry out as fast as it's little brother. Or for even more EHP, idk/idc.

I really like the new Apocalypse, but for the Navy version i would have liked to see some diversification, maybe in just tweaking the bonuses it has into a different direction, for example giving it a 7.5% reduce in Large Energy Weapons Signature Resolution, creating a unique bonus that works towards tracking, but emphasizes on hitting small stuff better than just being able to track faster moving targets.


Just my 2 cents,


Syrias Bizniz
Marxzo Andoun
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#747 - 2013-05-15 16:59:05 UTC
Would also love to see tracking bonus changed to falloff on the Navy Mega. Other than that, looking good Smile
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#748 - 2013-05-15 17:11:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Listen guys, I understand that some of you were really looking forward to being able to do 1100 DPS at 200km, but there's no way in the real world that the CNR was ever going to be allowed to be that good - and if by some freak of persuasion or oversight it did, then it would pretty soon get nerfed.

Some of you were acting like it was a done deal and you were given a firm promise of that level of performance. You weren't. Get over it.

The New CNR will be better than the current CNR. If you don't believe me, believe the market; prices are up.



The market goes up with any announced change, buff or nerf. You should know that by now.

-Liang


He's not wrong though.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#749 - 2013-05-15 17:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: TehCloud
Marxzo Andoun wrote:
Would also love to see tracking bonus changed to falloff on the Navy Mega. Other than that, looking good Smile

Dude, what did you smoke?

just no

My Condor costs less than that module!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#750 - 2013-05-15 17:25:36 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:
because that unbalances it's performance against bigger targets where application is not an issue.



Exactly. Just because the navy raven was unbalanced in that way in the past is no reason to continue that situation. The proposed change works well in mutiple ways:

It makes the CNR an upgrade from the regular Raven (as it should be)

And

It does not allow a Navy Battleship to out perform aTech2 (longer to train for, more expensive) specialized ship. There NEVER should be a choice between a Navy BS and a Marauder if it's a PVE matter, the marauder should automatically win, where as up till now it's been a too up between navy raven and golem. (Hell, the PIRATE battleships shouldn't be better than Marauders for PVE, but that's another discussion, and I love my machs and nightmares and rattlesnakes..).

For those who don't like the new CNR, how about some solid, balanced counter-proposals for us (and more importantly, CCP ) to consider? Every other ship change being debated is ration, but the CNR debate is "but it's not uber anymore!".


I see that you have never trained reading comprehension. I'm not complaining that it isn't uber anymore. I'm complaining that there is literally no use case anymore. It's worse with torps (outright), it's worse (than the competition) with cruise, it's worse (than the competition) in PVP (and outright as well), it's worse (than the competition) in PVE.

See how the NApoc isn't obsoleted by the Paladin? That's the kind of relationship I'm looking for. Right now it has that kind of relationship. Soon... the CNR is simply a bad Golem.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#751 - 2013-05-15 17:27:00 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Guys, this is the "Navy Battleships" thread, not the "Caldari Navy Raven" thread.

Geez, seeing CNR in almost every post makes my eyes bleed. Please stop whining about the fecking CNR or start a new thread for CNR bitching and moaning.

That is all.


Wanna talk about another BS? Bring up something. Here's something for you: the Navy Geddon doesn't need to be Fatty McFats over there with a totally unwarranted +70 sig radius nerf.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#752 - 2013-05-15 17:40:14 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:
Guys, this is the "Navy Battleships" thread, not the "Caldari Navy Raven" thread.

Geez, seeing CNR in almost every post makes my eyes bleed. Please stop whining about the fecking CNR or start a new thread for CNR bitching and moaning.

That is all.


Wanna talk about another BS? Bring up something. Here's something for you: the Navy Geddon doesn't need to be Fatty McFats over there with a totally unwarranted +70 sig radius nerf.

-Liang


I have though. It's just that your CNR arguement has taken over the entire thread. There are people who talk about the Phoon and Pest as well as the Domi and Navythron. But listening to you, the only ship that matter is the CNR and the only nerf to the Navy Geddon (which is deserved). I personally see the Navy Geddon as too buffed versus an actual droneboat, the Navy Domi.

Before you cry that the increased sig is TURBOBAD, maybe you should suggest a tradeoff. ie smaller sig for a smaller dronebay.

This is after all "Rebalancing" where they buff certain stats on a ship and nerf others in order to achieve "balance".

If you are so correct about everything that you post, move on to something other then the "CNR is a bad Golem" line that you have and defend another ship that is getting a bum deal in the balance pass... (Navy Thron anyone?)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#753 - 2013-05-15 17:40:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:
because that unbalances it's performance against bigger targets where application is not an issue.



Exactly. Just because the navy raven was unbalanced in that way in the past is no reason to continue that situation. The proposed change works well in mutiple ways:

It makes the CNR an upgrade from the regular Raven (as it should be)

And

It does not allow a Navy Battleship to out perform aTech2 (longer to train for, more expensive) specialized ship. There NEVER should be a choice between a Navy BS and a Marauder if it's a PVE matter, the marauder should automatically win, where as up till now it's been a too up between navy raven and golem. (Hell, the PIRATE battleships shouldn't be better than Marauders for PVE, but that's another discussion, and I love my machs and nightmares and rattlesnakes..).

For those who don't like the new CNR, how about some solid, balanced counter-proposals for us (and more importantly, CCP ) to consider? Every other ship change being debated is ration, but the CNR debate is "but it's not uber anymore!".


I see that you have never trained reading comprehension. I'm not complaining that it isn't uber anymore. I'm complaining that there is literally no use case anymore. It's worse with torps (outright), it's worse (than the competition) with cruise, it's worse (than the competition) in PVP (and outright as well), it's worse (than the competition) in PVE.

See how the NApoc isn't obsoleted by the Paladin? That's the kind of relationship I'm looking for. Right now it has that kind of relationship. Soon... the CNR is simply a bad Golem.

-Liang


Then your problem is more with missiles as a system than it is with the new CNR. What exactly should ccp do with it to make sure it fits in the grand scheme of things?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#754 - 2013-05-15 17:56:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
I'd just leave the bonuses and high slots alone. The advantage of this:
- It maintains a unique role for both PVE and PVP
- It maintains a utility high slot
- It doesn't nerf torp fits

I know that Malcanis thinks it's OP because of 1100 DPS at 200km... but can we please come the **** back to reality here? Missiles are not instant damage and there's more than ample opportunity for warp outs and pre-reps. Honestly if someone can find a way to make the CNR work at that range then more power to them.

-Liang

Ed: I would also scale back a big chunk of the Navy Geddon's sig increase.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#755 - 2013-05-15 18:06:27 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:
Guys, this is the "Navy Battleships" thread, not the "Caldari Navy Raven" thread.

Geez, seeing CNR in almost every post makes my eyes bleed. Please stop whining about the fecking CNR or start a new thread for CNR bitching and moaning.

That is all.


Wanna talk about another BS? Bring up something. Here's something for you: the Navy Geddon doesn't need to be Fatty McFats over there with a totally unwarranted +70 sig radius nerf.

-Liang


I have though. It's just that your CNR arguement has taken over the entire thread. There are people who talk about the Phoon and Pest as well as the Domi and Navythron. But listening to you, the only ship that matter is the CNR and the only nerf to the Navy Geddon (which is deserved). I personally see the Navy Geddon as too buffed versus an actual droneboat, the Navy Domi.

Before you cry that the increased sig is TURBOBAD, maybe you should suggest a tradeoff. ie smaller sig for a smaller dronebay.

This is after all "Rebalancing" where they buff certain stats on a ship and nerf others in order to achieve "balance".

If you are so correct about everything that you post, move on to something other then the "CNR is a bad Golem" line that you have and defend another ship that is getting a bum deal in the balance pass... (Navy Thron anyone?)



i absolutely support you here.
im frustrated reading 20 pages about wether CNR is now always better or just sometimes better than before, or whineing it isnt btter than a golem any more.
if id ever heard anyone saying the new fleet pest is no longer batter than a vargur id be mad happy cause it would mean its somewhere on a level where you could actualy think of compareing those ships without beeing utterly drunk and high the same time.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#756 - 2013-05-15 18:07:59 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:


i absolutely support you here.
im frustrated reading 20 pages about wether CNR is now always better or just sometimes better than before, or whineing it isnt btter than a golem any more.
if id ever heard anyone saying the new fleet pest is no longer batter than a vargur id be mad happy cause it would mean its somewhere on a level where you could actualy think of compareing those ships without beeing utterly drunk and high the same time.

LolLolLolLol
Drunk and high indeed.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kane Fenris
NWP
#757 - 2013-05-15 18:20:05 UTC
i have an easy 2 step solution for the tempest fleet issue problem!

1.)give the fleet pest the stats of the tempest tribal issue
2.)change the tribal issue in any way 0-2 players will complain for about 5-10 seconds

problem solved!

Twisted
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#758 - 2013-05-15 18:20:15 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:

I have though. It's just that your CNR arguement has taken over the entire thread. There are people who talk about the Phoon and Pest as well as the Domi and Navythron. But listening to you, the only ship that matter is the CNR and the only nerf to the Navy Geddon (which is deserved). I personally see the Navy Geddon as too buffed versus an actual droneboat, the Navy Domi.

Before you cry that the increased sig is TURBOBAD, maybe you should suggest a tradeoff. ie smaller sig for a smaller dronebay.

This is after all "Rebalancing" where they buff certain stats on a ship and nerf others in order to achieve "balance".

If you are so correct about everything that you post, move on to something other then the "CNR is a bad Golem" line that you have and defend another ship that is getting a bum deal in the balance pass... (Navy Thron anyone?)


The problem with the CNR discussion is that people who have literally no idea how the ship works are defending the new ship. We've got people defending the new CNR who don't think utility highs are useful in PVP, people who don't know the difference between explo radius and explo velocity, people who don't understand missile damage, people who think you don't need damage mods or painters, etc.

Which, of course, is kinda a big problem. Right now CCP is judging the fact that total incompetents are piping up in favor of bad changes as evidence that the change is a good one. This is exactly equivalent to me using one of my alt accounts to extoll the virtues of the new Navy Mega and Fleet Pest and talk about how they're gonna be just so awesome. And then there'd be a dissenting voice and we're stuck with a **** change. In either case, I'm absolutely not relenting on the CNR (and then the Geddon) until CCP explains why they're smacking it that hard with a nerf hammer.

As to the Geddon's drone bay: It seems excessive and I'd be more than happy to trade it down for decreasing the sig radius. The Navy Mega and Fleet Pest are just unexciting to me. I can't really think of any better alternatives though, so I'm not harping on the subject.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Trolly McForumalt
Doomheim
#759 - 2013-05-15 18:20:51 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


See how the NApoc isn't obsoleted by the Paladin? That's the kind of relationship I'm looking for. Right now it has that kind of relationship. Soon... the CNR is simply a bad Golem.

-Liang


I sort of see what you are saying with the replication of bonus (and some extra ones). Maybe change the velocity bonus (ie range bonus) to an explosion velocity bonus to go along with the explosion radius bonus. Then it kinda gets its own niche separate from the other Caldari missile BSes. I don't necessarily like the idea of it doing more damage outright than the other hulls (especially the SNI and Golem). Also, nerf the Typhoons.
Trolly McForumalt
Doomheim
#760 - 2013-05-15 18:28:04 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


The problem with the CNR discussion is that people who have literally no idea how the ship works are defending the new ship. We've got people defending the new CNR who don't think utility highs are useful in PVP, people who don't know the difference between explo radius and explo velocity, people who don't understand missile damage, people who think you don't need damage mods or painters, etc.


-Liang


Let me ask you this question (which also sorta builds on some previous posts you had) just in case I'm missing something here.

What happens when you paint a BS-sized target with max skills using faction cruise missiles? Does it add damage? Or are you mostly addressing tp usage for combat (both pvp and pve) against BC- and cruiser-sized targets?