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[Odyssey] Clone Costs

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Sun Zue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2013-05-15 15:22:21 UTC
This is a good start but I would like it to go i bit further and let the Null Sec owned outposts be able to set their own clone prices separate from the rest of eve. I mean, alliances have to pay to put one up, upgrade the system AND pay rent for the land they conquered. Why should they not make it easier for their members to live in that area. Hell, in FW you can upgrade a system to get a 50% discount on med clones yet there is no (as I know it) way to cut JC costs in the harshest place in EvE.
Dazz Riiiiiiight
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2013-05-15 15:27:50 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:
Now my clone costs less than my interceptor. YAYYYYYYYYYY.
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Rise - Why did you not remove them completely? Why just the 30%? Sure suicide podding across the game via the abuse of clone locations would need to be addressed, but solving that has several solutions that are acceptable.

Economical balance. See Dr. Ejyo's presentation from 2012.


too bad you are so bad they thought of implementing insurance on pods JUST FOR YOU
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#183 - 2013-05-15 15:35:53 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
TLDR : New players want to get into fights and blow stuff up. They currently do pretty poorly partly because of power creep. Lowering clone costs compounds creep which will eventually lead to disengagement with the game.

Fleet tactics should not rely on a material disparity. A well organized, competently lead team needs to win sometimes even if they are outgunned on a SP or ISK level. The reward of Eve should be in working together and engaging.


I'm mostly in favor of reducing the costs for very high skilled chars. Those 50m sp in industry and PI skills don't give the old guy an edge in pvp over a newer guy.
You can be sure most ppl who have high skilled chars also have properly skilled pvp alts anyway. So nothing really changes on that front. The clone price reduction is just a welcome incentive for veteran players to actualy use their mains instead of hiding them in stations.

The argument that older chars have it easier to make isk doesn't really fly with me when a) thers plenty of younger players who know how to make a lot of isk b) its not said that the high sp char is actualy the money maker. many people use specialized lower sp alts to create their income. Opportunity cost for them is the same as for a newer eve player who uses his main for the same task.

(For additional explanation: younger player can mean say a 2 year old account vs. a 7 year old account)
Sollis Vynneve
Destructive Silence
#184 - 2013-05-15 15:42:16 UTC
please make it so we can have more than one jump clone in a station, we can reship our spaceships nased on the combat situation so why not do the same for clones. i dont wanna have to travel 20 jimps after jc into a combat clone based on the fight im in.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#185 - 2013-05-15 15:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Laveaolous wrote:

You should be arguing for cheaper clones then. Lower SP players would do better if higher SP players are in smaller more fragile cheap ships surely, at the moment I may as well go for bigger/shinier ship because hell i'm already risking 30+m isk before I pick a ship.


Your position assumes that the combat event has no meaning or consequences beyond the engagement itself. High skill point characters will certainly be more aggressive if their cost for doing so is lowered. Of course aggression without risk will win, this is the danger of all unfettered opportunism, it works well for those on top but ultimately destroys the environment below.

No, I would prefer that you bring the bling, better KM for me and greater loss for you. Clone costs should be tripled and SP should transfer from high chars to low ones in the event of pod kill.
addelee
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#186 - 2013-05-15 15:49:10 UTC
The only reason I can actually see why we have charges on clones is so that people don't death clone everywhere without penalty (JC have a cool-down timer, death clones have isk cost).

I cannot however see any reason why CCP should punish long term players (we could even call them loyal) by having such a staggered system for clones.

For me, it greatly effects how I play. My clone currently costs 31 million isk.
I'm far less likely to join a one sided fight or try an experimental ship fit because it's just extra, unnecessary cost. I've highlighted two scenarios that spring to mind below:


Examples:
Join a fleet with a Rifter that's been fitted for 5 million. Die and get podded and suddenly the loss isn't 5 mill, it's 36mill. Seems insane that the clone costs 6 times the amount of the ship and fitting.

Another example is I was playing with bombers the other night. I died a couple of times and podded both times. Cost was around 75 mill per loss including the clone. I can't be bothered to try again as it meant I had to grind anoms for a few hours just to experiment.



It can be argued that more experienced players have more isk. This isn't always true; I currently have 66 million in the bank (not a lot). I can however, make isk through anoms pretty quick but the point is, I don't want to PVE or more the point, I don't want to have to PVE for a few hours every single PVP ship loss. It seems stupid.

Perhaps a solution would either be a flat rate fee, a fee based on the total worth of the ship you were flying (perhaps capped at some stage) or related to the standings of the corp where your clone is held.

Even with these changes, clones are definitely a broken game mechanic (seen by people creating alts and capping characters)
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#187 - 2013-05-15 15:50:44 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
I love the idea of your clone scaling with your ship loss. The hard part is associating the two. You'd almost be replacing the idea of podding by removing it. That's not great.

Really, you need to satisfy three sides:

  • Dead pods: Give a reason to kill pods and cause grief. If it's not worth killing people's pods, just remove them from the game.
  • Improve PVP: Make it easier for people to pvp, even if they have skill bonus implants (ick, dump them). Hardwiring people are paying for the bonuses, so obviously would lose hardwirings when they die. Mindlinks, I'm torn on, just because they're grossly undersupplied due to how they're currently being distributed, like Level 4 missions need bonuses like this.
  • Isk sink: I have no idea how deep this isk sink is, but I would guess someone could pull that number.

Just have your clone cost cumulatively go up based on the cost of ships you've lost since your last clone upgrade.

Just like the bounty payout, but instead it's a cumulative cost that is assigned to your character, next time you lose your pod, you need to pay that value to upgrade your clone.

I still think the fixed cost mechanic of clones is terrible and it taxes certain play-styles more than others with no real reason behind it.
Charlie Jacobson
#188 - 2013-05-15 15:56:56 UTC
My character is just over 2 years old, and I am not making isk much faster now than I was 1 year ago. If anything, it feels slower because I am less excited about the grinding now, and more excited about blowing stuff up. I don't expect my average isk income to increase much in the future.

In regards to "power creep" and unfair advantages against newer players, that's pretty much a non-issue when you're talking about 40mil vs 200mil SP. They just have a wider variety of ships available, while I can fly the ones I specialized in just as well. The fact that their clone costs 14 times more than mine doesn't really make sense to me.

I support James 315 and the New Order of Highsec
Marcus Junius
Nephilim Ordo
#189 - 2013-05-15 15:57:43 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Ivana Twinkle wrote:
I have no problem paying 20 mil for my clone when I die in a battleship.
But if i die 10 times in a rifter and get podded each time, it's kinda defeating the purpose of the game. The clone costs is currently a detergent to the sandbox of playing the game you want.
Maybe the clone cost could be a funtion of your ships cost (to retain the isk sink) OR just a redution to 1/10th, so a 20 mil clone would costs 2 instead.

a 30% reduction is still expensive.


I love the idea of your clone scaling with your ship loss...


+1

Along with scaling of ship, maybe related to percentage of SP that was actually being used at the time. (cached to most recent session change)

So if you have 150mil sp and you were in a rifter and only using 5 percent of you SP, you get 5 percent of the penalty at pod death.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#190 - 2013-05-15 15:59:51 UTC
Hmm, personally I'm in favour of harsher penalties for pod deaths. Although to be honest was never keen on the idea of an isk cost to replace as the method of punishment., I much prefer some type of SP penalty but perhaps with some changes to mechanics to make pod kills more difficult in 0.0. But judging from this thread though it seems everyone has gone all carebear so guess I'm in the minority.
John Dowland
Lame Pheasant Gecko Squad
#191 - 2013-05-15 16:04:33 UTC
Just cap clone costs at 10m and call it good.
Adunh Slavy
#192 - 2013-05-15 16:07:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
CCP Rise - Why did you not remove them completely?


I'm with you. We talked about it a lot here, and we all would rather make this system better than strip it out completely.



Player made clones? Some PI thing on temperate planets. Top end clone should run about 1 mil ISK.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#193 - 2013-05-15 16:08:17 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
CCP Rise - Why did you not remove them completely?


I'm with you. We talked about it a lot here, and we all would rather make this system better than strip it out completely. I know this is a careful first step, but trust me, we want to do more with it and this is a way for us to act in a more informed way when we are able to more, and in the mean time it eases the pain a bit for you guys.

Something CCP is becoming more serious about (with Fozzie as one of the major champions) is making 'good' changes NOW even if there's some 'perfect' solution somewhere down the line that might take quite awhile to actually happen.
Rise, I agree that some things ought to be saved that are terribly broken now, because they help the game overall. One example would be active armor tanking (although, Gallente didn't need two BCs with a bonus, but I digress).

But the clone system doesn't provide any richness or, really, game play to the game. It's just a matter of "remember to update your clones!" or face severe consequences by losing skill points, which, incidentally, you cannot easily recover. There's no grinding my sp back. Honestly, grinding would be a far better penalty than wasted-time sp loss. This only further begs the question of why this penalty-driven feature still exists? How is this game play compelling? What enrichment am I supposed to derive from this as a player?

If you want to keep clone costs in the game, fine. Just add in clone "levels," whereby when I purchase the next level of clone, then I get that clone in perpetuity upon podding until I pass the next sp benchmark and buy the upgrade. But it still wouldn't be compelling; it'd just be an isk sink.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#194 - 2013-05-15 16:12:13 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
CCP Rise - Why did you not remove them completely?


I'm with you. We talked about it a lot here, and we all would rather make this system better than strip it out completely.



Player made clones? Some PI thing on temperate planets. Top end clone should run about 1 mil ISK.
I'm sure something like this is where they were headed. I was looking over some blueprints on my neocom app yesterday that lists unpublished features, and lo and behold I found clone blueprints that are currently unpublished on TQ. Yes, this is some tinfoil hatting, but it makes sense, especially considering that Dust play involves clone production. If Eve players don't make the clones in Eve's closed system, I could see the clone bodies coming from PI and the (whatever) capsuleer-upgrades for them coming from Eve.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

addelee
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#195 - 2013-05-15 16:14:10 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:

If you want to keep clone costs in the game, fine. Just add in clone "levels," whereby when I purchase the next level of clone, then I get that clone in perpetuity upon podding until I pass the next sp benchmark and buy the upgrade. But it still wouldn't be compelling; it'd just be an isk sink.


That's not a bad idea to be honest.

Yeah, it's still an isk sink (which apparently CCP are happy with) but it's not as bad as before.

Isk as a punishment is a funny one. It's a punishment as you're forced to do something you don't want to do in order to do something you do want to do thus turning the whole thing into a chore. Seems the wrong kind of punishment and if CCP were serious about fixing it they'd have more than a 5 minute internal meeting about it over a coffee in the CCP canteen.
subtle turtle
Doozer Mining Cartel
#196 - 2013-05-15 16:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: subtle turtle
I would like to see a way of interdiction nullifying pods, at a cost. If null sec is the endgame of eve, it is absurd that content like pirate implants can't be regularly used. I personally would roam to 0.0 much more if I didn't need to clone jump just to do it.

I was thinking maybe a slot 6 implant that works like the interdiction nullifier sub system on a t3. You could warp out of bubbles, but a smart ceptor pilot could still catch and kill you. The reason for slot 6 is that it forces you to make an important choice. If you want a bubble safe clone, you don't get the all important omega implant.

Like i said, one thing keeping people out of 0.0 is the risk of podding, and while that risk shouldn't go entirely away, there should be a chance to mitigate it, although at a real opportunity cost.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#197 - 2013-05-15 16:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Maximus Andendare wrote:
If you want to keep clone costs in the game, fine. Just add in clone "levels," whereby when I purchase the next level of clone, then I get that clone in perpetuity upon podding until I pass the next sp benchmark and buy the upgrade. But it still wouldn't be compelling; it'd just be an isk sink.

The best way to make the clone mechanic compelling is to make it so SP is lost upon pod death. This is how I would implement it.

  1. Upon a pod death character loses x% of total skill points from the skill with the most SP invested.
  2. Character gets a certain "tax" free amount (for instance the first 10 million SP) to which no SP loss can occur.
  3. Pods are immune to all forms of non targeted warp disruption.

So this would work in a similar way to how T3 cruiser SP loss occurs. This change would simultaneously also fix a number of issues and add to better gameplay on a number of levels.

  1. Bounty hunting profession could be tied to a pod kill, and achieving a pod kill would have a tangible in game affect on your opponent.
  2. The ever increasing SP grind could be slowed slightly by total SP pool of characters in general being lowered.

I don't think the SP penalty should be too harsh, particularly not for a newer player who is still below 50 million SP for example, but harsh enough to make a pod death more meaningful as I feel was originally intended for the game.
Nomad I
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2013-05-15 16:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nomad I
Drunken Bum wrote:
Its a start i guess.



Remove clone costs. It makes sense, because flying with small ships and dieing would not be that expensive anymore.
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#199 - 2013-05-15 16:27:29 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Laveaolous wrote:

You should be arguing for cheaper clones then. Lower SP players would do better if higher SP players are in smaller more fragile cheap ships surely, at the moment I may as well go for bigger/shinier ship because hell i'm already risking 30+m isk before I pick a ship.


Your position assumes that the combat event has no meaning or consequences beyond the engagement itself. High skill point characters will certainly be more aggressive if their cost for doing so is lowered. Of course aggression without risk will win, this is the danger of all unfettered opportunism, it works well for those on top but ultimately destroys the environment below.

No, I would prefer that you bring the bling, better KM for me and greater loss for you. Clone costs should be tripled and SP should transfer from high chars to low ones in the event of pod kill.

It's true that high skill point characters will be more aggressive, but their effective SP caps out at a certain point. If I am flying a Slasher, my missile skills, battleship skills, cruiser skills, t2 lasers, and leadership skills are all completely irrelevant to the fight. Of my ~22m SP, only 7,329,454 would help me fly a slasher, and that's being generous. On the other hand, I haven't specialized for flying slashers at all.

Given my admittedly inferior piloting skills when it comes to solo PvP, a newer slasher pilot than I would likely be able to take me in a 1v1. In a similar ship class fight, knowing your ship's strengths and weaknesses more than your opponent does counts for a lot. My aggressiveness and my willingness to take on risk mean that that newer pilot will have more targets to fight, and if they're at the same ship class and lose, the pilot can't blame my horrifically superior setup. The dudes in frigates and dessies who trashed my early solo frigate attempts taught me a lot about the value of a well-flown, well-fitted frigate, and I learned a lot from those encounters despite never winning a single one.

Not to mention that while I was learning to FC, my fellow pilots' clone costs were bringing down the sizes of my fleets. "Let's all go welp some ships" sounds a lot less attractive when you're gonna welp your pod as well, so there's less incentive to give someone who might not be as competent a chance to learn.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#200 - 2013-05-15 16:37:04 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Laveaolous wrote:

You should be arguing for cheaper clones then. Lower SP players would do better if higher SP players are in smaller more fragile cheap ships surely, at the moment I may as well go for bigger/shinier ship because hell i'm already risking 30+m isk before I pick a ship.


Your position assumes that the combat event has no meaning or consequences beyond the engagement itself. High skill point characters will certainly be more aggressive if their cost for doing so is lowered. Of course aggression without risk will win, this is the danger of all unfettered opportunism, it works well for those on top but ultimately destroys the environment below.

No, I would prefer that you bring the bling, better KM for me and greater loss for you. Clone costs should be tripled and SP should transfer from high chars to low ones in the event of pod kill.

It's true that high skill point characters will be more aggressive, but their effective SP caps out at a certain point. If I am flying a Slasher, my missile skills, battleship skills, cruiser skills, t2 lasers, and leadership skills are all completely irrelevant to the fight. Of my ~22m SP, only 7,329,454 would help me fly a slasher, and that's being generous. On the other hand, I haven't specialized for flying slashers at all.

Given my admittedly inferior piloting skills when it comes to solo PvP, a newer slasher pilot than I would likely be able to take me in a 1v1. In a similar ship class fight, knowing your ship's strengths and weaknesses more than your opponent does counts for a lot. My aggressiveness and my willingness to take on risk mean that that newer pilot will have more targets to fight, and if they're at the same ship class and lose, the pilot can't blame my horrifically superior setup. The dudes in frigates and dessies who trashed my early solo frigate attempts taught me a lot about the value of a well-flown, well-fitted frigate, and I learned a lot from those encounters despite never winning a single one.

Not to mention that while I was learning to FC, my fellow pilots' clone costs were bringing down the sizes of my fleets. "Let's all go welp some ships" sounds a lot less attractive when you're gonna welp your pod as well, so there's less incentive to give someone who might not be as competent a chance to learn.

If the aim is to truly encourage fights, then the blindingly obvious thing would be to make pods immune to non targeted warp disruption, seeing as that is pretty much the biggest barrier to people roaming in null sec. Adjusting ISK cost is nothing more than rearranging the deckchairs. Ie it will have little impact.