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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#201 - 2011-11-03 20:36:31 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Why are you only looking at DPS, Alpha and Dam type are just as important.


DPS > Alpha. Alphafleets only own Hellcats when they outnumber them more than 3 to 1. Even with a gross advantage in numbers, in the time that an alphafleet would kill 10 ships, pulse fleets would kill 30. In my experience, ofc. (taking Gem, drone regions invasion, clearing out Venal, the DRF counter-invasion, etc.)

You are free to provide links to all the alphafleet vs. hellcat fights you've experienced in RvB however. I'd be interested in see how it plays out there.

Quote:
Well I say that those Artillery Ships are just damn to good. So Projectiles meet your dream stats almost dead on with even a few improvements just not Barrage.


In literally every fight artillery BS have run into equal numbers of pulse BS (Hellcats or Panic Geddons) the artillery ships lost. And to get my "dream stats" for alpha damage I have to put my artillery boat well within Scorch optimal. This is not just Scorch L either, but Scorch M as well.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#202 - 2011-11-03 20:41:32 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:

WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane.
WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.

Artillery can do that, Barrage is more for close kiting in which Cap Use and Speed are a greater factor. Kiting Amarr Ships tend to be run down or run out of Cap.

Hurricane: 17Opt 33FO, 479 Gun DPS, 4000 Alpha, 61000 EHP, 1311m/s, 0 Cap Use and 3 Different Dmg Types
Maelstrom: 30Opt 44FO, 682DPS, 11000 Alpha, 130000 EHP, 835m/s, 0 Cap Use and 3 Different Dmg Types

Well I say that those Artillery Ships are just damn to good. So Projectiles meet your dream stats almost dead on with even a few improvements just not with Barrage.

Just so you know, I happen ton think Large Scorch needs a Nerf pretty badly. It makes Beams and Rails Pointless and as you can see above so does Artillery.


A few comments:
- All of your complaining seems centered around how both lasers and projectiles are better than Hybrids. As of Monaclegate, most weapons systems (sans Hybrids and Cruise) were pretty reasonably balanced. If you really feel that the Hybrid boost isn't strong enough, you should campaign for it to be strengthened.
- It isn't really an apples to apples comparison to compare Artillery with its terrible tracking to Pulse and its relatively awesome tracking.
- It seems really premature to complain that Pulse makes Rails pointless when Rails are getting a 10% damage boost in the next patch.
- Continuing QQing for nerfs when competing weapons systems are getting buffed is pretty dubious and the realization of your desires would likely lead to even worse balance than we have now (which is actually pretty good, sans Hybrids).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Izuru Hishido
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#203 - 2011-11-03 20:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Izuru Hishido
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:

WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane.
WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.

Artillery can do that...

Just so you know, I happen ton think Large Scorch needs a Nerf pretty badly. It makes Beams and Rails Pointless and as you can see above so does Artillery.



Arties are not AC's, which we were talking about.

Scorch makes beams and rails pointless? How? Since when does scorch hit at 180+ optimal? Since when does scorch do 400 DPS at 150km+? Musta missed that buff.

Also, its Artillery. Its supposed to be long range, high volley, very slow rate of fire. I don't get what your problem is with the tradeoffs. Last I checked, a rail mega matched a tachapoc for almost everything except volley.

Edit: Thank you for covering the rail buff for me, Liang, forgot to mention that.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#204 - 2011-11-03 20:47:19 UTC
Izuru Hishido wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:

WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane.
WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.

Artillery can do that...

Just so you know, I happen ton think Large Scorch needs a Nerf pretty badly. It makes Beams and Rails Pointless and as you can see above so does Artillery.



Arties are not AC's, which we were talking about.

Scorch makes beams and rails pointless? How? Since when does scorch hit at 180+ optimal? Since when does scorch do 400 DPS at 150km+? Musta missed that buff.

Also, its Artillery. Its supposed to be long range, high volley, very slow rate of fire. I don't get what your problem is with the tradeoffs. Last I checked, a rail mega matched a tachapoc for almost everything except volley.

Edit: Thank you for covering the rail buff for me, Liang, forgot to mention that.


10% rail damage makes a Rail Hype look very sexy indeed.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#205 - 2011-11-03 20:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:

A few comments:
- All of your complaining seems centered around how both lasers and projectiles are better than Hybrids. As of Monaclegate, most weapons systems (sans Hybrids and Cruise) were pretty reasonably balanced. If you really feel that the Hybrid boost isn't strong enough, you should campaign for it to be strengthened.
- It isn't really an apples to apples comparison to compare Artillery with its terrible tracking to Pulse and its relatively awesome tracking.
- It seems really premature to complain that Pulse makes Rails pointless when Rails are getting a 10% damage boost in the next patch.
- Continuing QQing for nerfs when competing weapons systems are getting buffed is pretty dubious and the realization of your desires would likely lead to even worse balance than we have now (which is actually pretty good, sans Hybrids).

-Liang

1. No it is that Beams and Rails don't see use anymore. Scorch DPS, Artillery Alpha has limited the field.
2. Yes Pulse does have better tracking then a Long Range Weapon should.
3. Oh good 10% Buff now they are fine cept that they still do Lower DPS and there is the Tracking thing you mentioned.
4. That is only if you think the people running the balancing are drooling retards. 1 Massive Alpha Weapon and One Super Tracking Super DPS Weapon = Dead Rails and Beams.

Now that they are working to bring Hybrids in line is the perfect time to wrangle in everything.
Izuru Hishido wrote:

Scorch makes beams and rails pointless? How? Since when does scorch hit at 180+ optimal? Since when does scorch do 400 DPS at 150km+? Musta missed that buff.

When is the last time you needed 10 be at that long a range since Apocrypha. When is the last time FC said Beams and Rails instead of Scorch and Arty.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#206 - 2011-11-03 20:55:28 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
****** liang is back defending the imba op matars again...


Nah, I'm just saying that suggesting specific hybrid changes is really premature until the hybrid changes settle down - because that 's the biggest source of balancing QQ. And even then, if you're going to nerf projectiles you should probably nerf lasers too... which means there's a lot of instability introduced into the game.

It's probably best to go with the suggested path all along: make Hybrids actually useful and see where things are after that. Remember that CCP had a choice: nerf lasers (and probably torps) or boost everything else. They chose to boost projectiles to laser levels (And IMO did a fairly good job of it), but they left the job half finished by only boosting projectiles.

Hopefully they adequately finish the job here.

-Liang


the usuall bs you always write in short : " just wait a little longer to see ..." to see what exactly??? huh???
that the dev blog will be the final hybrid boost as in 99% it is set into stone for ccp, or wait another 3 years? or what?
yes projectiles are on laser lvl if you only compare the weapons ,but you need ships to use those and hand down matar ships are op compared to the others , those didnt get balanced at all, if matar noobs want as good weapons as the other races they should be satisfied with as bad ships also
matars were balanced before the projectile boost because their ships compensated out the bad weapons but now they are just op
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#207 - 2011-11-03 20:56:18 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Now that they are working to bring Hybrids in line is the perfect time to wrangle in everything.


When they're mucking around with Hybrids is a ******* terrible time to nerf everything else.

Alara IonStorm wrote:

When is the last time you needed 10 be at that long a range since Apocrypha. When is the last time FC said Beams and Rails instead of Scorch and Arty.


It isn't reasonable to talk about Blasters or Rails in the past and use them as a basis for nerfing anything today.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Izuru Hishido
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#208 - 2011-11-03 20:58:26 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

A few comments:
- All of your complaining seems centered around how both lasers and projectiles are better than Hybrids. As of Monaclegate, most weapons systems (sans Hybrids and Cruise) were pretty reasonably balanced. If you really feel that the Hybrid boost isn't strong enough, you should campaign for it to be strengthened.
- It isn't really an apples to apples comparison to compare Artillery with its terrible tracking to Pulse and its relatively awesome tracking.
- It seems really premature to complain that Pulse makes Rails pointless when Rails are getting a 10% damage boost in the next patch.
- Continuing QQing for nerfs when competing weapons systems are getting buffed is pretty dubious and the realization of your desires would likely lead to even worse balance than we have now (which is actually pretty good, sans Hybrids).

-Liang

1. No it is that Beams and Rails don't see use anymore. Scorch DPS, Artillery Alpha has limited the field.
2. Yes Pulse does have better tracking then a Long Range Weapon should.
3. Oh good 10% Buff now they are fine cept that they still do Lower DPS and there is the Tracking thing you mentioned.
4. That is only if you think the people running the balancing are drooling retards. 1 Massive Alpha Weapon and One Super Tracking Super DPS Weapon = Dead Rails and Beams.

Now that they are working to bring Hybrids in line is the perfect time to wrangle in everything.


What in the hell are you going on about?

Pulse are a short range weapon, yes. They aren't the only short range weapon that can hit at above 50km either, if you want a list I can provide you with one.

Rails aren't blasters. They don't need a super tracking speed.

The only one massive alpha weapon that I know of is either called a Doomsday or a Quad 3500mm Repeating I Gallium cannon, which one of does I believe about 20k alpha. The only 'super tracking super DPS weapon' I know of is a Doomsday. You're bitching, but all I hear is the argument of a blithering idiot.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#209 - 2011-11-03 21:01:41 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

the usuall bs you always write in short : " just wait a little longer to see ..." to see what exactly??? huh???
that the dev blog will be the final hybrid boost as in 99% it is set into stone for ccp, or wait another 3 years? or what?
yes projectiles are on laser lvl if you only compare the weapons ,but you need ships to use those and hand down matar ships are op compared to the others , those didnt get balanced at all, if matar noobs want as good weapons as the other races they should be satisfied with as bad ships also
matars were balanced before the projectile boost because their ships compensated out the bad weapons but now they are just op


Unfortunately, you're quite literally the very last person I would ever take seriously when speaking about Matari nerfs. As far as I've ever been able to tell, you won't be happy until Minmatar are literally nerfed into total oblivion. And by total oblivion, I mean making old Rockets look good in comparison.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#210 - 2011-11-03 21:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:

When they're mucking around with Hybrids is a ******* terrible time to nerf everything else.

No it is not. Do you think the Devs are too stupid to muck around with more then one weapons system at a time then balance them against each other.

Liang Nuren wrote:

It isn't reasonable to talk about Blasters or Rails in the past and use them as a basis for nerfing anything today.

-Liang

They are terrible today because there ultra long range role is dead. Rails and Beams will not out DPS Scorch or Out Alpha Artillery. Therefor this rebalance is pointless without looking at Scorch and Artillery.

Izuru Hishido wrote:

Pulse are a short range weapon, yes. They aren't the only short range weapon that can hit at above 50km either, if you want a list I can provide you with one.

sure why not. To get above 50km you need 1 TC. Find me another Sub Cap SR Weapon that has a 50KM Optimal Range, don't waste any Rig Slots ether.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#211 - 2011-11-03 21:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

When they're mucking around with Hybrids is a ******* terrible time to nerf everything else.

No it is not. Do you think the Devs are too stupid to muck around with more then one weapons system at a time then balance them against each other.


It's not a matter of "too stupid" as much as "not being prescient".

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Liang Nuren wrote:

It isn't reasonable to talk about Blasters or Rails in the past and use them as a basis for nerfing anything today.

-Liang

They are terrible today because there ultra long range role is dead. Rails and Beams will not out DPS Scorch or Out Alpha Artillery. Therefor this rebalance is pointless without looking at Scorch.


If long range is dead, don't you think it'd be a better choice to look at why long range is dead? Or, I guess you could continue on QQing about how you want everyone else nerfed.

-Liang

Ed: Quoting

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#212 - 2011-11-03 21:10:08 UTC
Let's get to the heart of the issue:

Quote:

Hybrid Turrets

Reduce CPU usage:
• L Turrets: -3 CPU
• M Turrets: -2 CPU
• S Turrets: -1 CPU

Reduce Powergrid usage:
• All hybrid turrets: -12% Powergrid usage. Rounded to nearest whole number.

Reduced Capacitor usage:
• All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use

Tracking Speed Increase:
• All blaster turrets: +20% to Tracking speed

Railguns

Damage Increase:
• All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier


Is this really a good start?
What would you add to this list, if anything?
Alara IonStorm
#213 - 2011-11-03 21:11:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

If long range is dead, don't you think it'd be a better choice to look at why long range is dead? Or, I guess you could continue on QQing about how you want everyone else nerfed.

-Liang

That is one solution to look into probing and Wrap too Mechanics.

Or they can nerf L Scorch Opt and:

Make Beams the fleet weapon for DPS
Make Artillery the fleet Alpha Weapon
Make Rails the middleground between Alpha and DPS.

And Finally make Pulse Lasers a Short Range Weapon.

Ether would be fine.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#214 - 2011-11-03 21:19:51 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

If long range is dead, don't you think it'd be a better choice to look at why long range is dead? Or, I guess you could continue on QQing about how you want everyone else nerfed.

-Liang

That is one solution to look into probing and Wrap too Mechanics.

Or they can nerf L Scorch Opt and:

Make Beams the fleet weapon for DPS
Make Artillery the fleet Alpha Weapon
Make Rails the middleground between Alpha and DPS.

And Finally make Pulse Lasers a Short Range Weapon.

Ether would be fine.


No, either would not really be fine. If you are worried that range is dead and its depriving weapons of their role, then fix that. Once that's fixed you have literally no excuse to be comparing Artillery and Scorch anyway. Really, nerfing Scorch to solve this problem is the pants on head stupid way to solve it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#215 - 2011-11-03 21:24:58 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

No, either would not really be fine. If you are worried that range is dead and its depriving weapons of their role, then fix that. Once that's fixed you have literally no excuse to be comparing Artillery and Scorch anyway. Really, nerfing Scorch to solve this problem is the pants on head stupid way to solve it.

-Liang

To solve your problem maybe. I don't mind effective being where it is now. So yes I want Scorch to have the same Damage as it does now and the range of Standard Ammo and Long Range Weapons rebalanced against each other.

If you care about 100+ ranges you are free to care about that all you want.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#216 - 2011-11-03 21:34:06 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Let's get to the heart of the issue:

[quote]
Hybrid Turrets

Reduce CPU usage:
• L Turrets: -3 CPU
• M Turrets: -2 CPU
• S Turrets: -1 CPU

Reduce Powergrid usage:
• All hybrid turrets: -12% Powergrid usage. Rounded to nearest whole number.

Reduced Capacitor usage:
• All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use

Tracking Speed Increase:
• All blaster turrets: +20% to Tracking speed

Railguns

Damage Increase:
• All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier

Is this really a good start?
What would you add to this list, if anything?


My only comment on this is that it was never tracking that drove me to use Projectiles and then Lasers. It was just that the reward (DPS) for getting into web+scram+neut range wasn't good enough to justify doing it. It also seems that you left out a bunch of ship changes which (I hear) make it easier to get into blaster range in the first place.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#217 - 2011-11-03 21:36:07 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

No, either would not really be fine. If you are worried that range is dead and its depriving weapons of their role, then fix that. Once that's fixed you have literally no excuse to be comparing Artillery and Scorch anyway. Really, nerfing Scorch to solve this problem is the pants on head stupid way to solve it.

-Liang

To solve your problem maybe. I don't mind effective being where it is now. So yes I want Scorch to have the same Damage as it does now and the range of Standard Ammo and Long Range Weapons rebalanced against each other.

If you care about 100+ ranges you are free to care about that all you want.



So, you feel that Scorch should be balanced around long range weaponry used at fairly close range.

Wow.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Izuru Hishido
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#218 - 2011-11-03 21:36:28 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

When they're mucking around with Hybrids is a ******* terrible time to nerf everything else.

No it is not. Do you think the Devs are too stupid to muck around with more then one weapons system at a time then balance them against each other.

Liang Nuren wrote:

It isn't reasonable to talk about Blasters or Rails in the past and use them as a basis for nerfing anything today.

-Liang

They are terrible today because there ultra long range role is dead. Rails and Beams will not out DPS Scorch or Out Alpha Artillery. Therefor this rebalance is pointless without looking at Scorch and Artillery.

Izuru Hishido wrote:

Pulse are a short range weapon, yes. They aren't the only short range weapon that can hit at above 50km either, if you want a list I can provide you with one.

sure why not. To get above 50km you need 1 TC. Find me another Sub Cap SR Weapon that has a 50KM Optimal Range, don't waste any Rig Slots ether.


Kay.
Javelin Torps with 3%-5% implants, but you do need one rocket fuel cache partition. With 3%'s you can easily exceed fifty kilometers. I think the max range I got was sixty seven kilometers.
800's get close to 70km without any tracking computers/enhancers. Figure out yourself how. No wasted rigs either.
I've got a corpmate who has a mega setup that gets 60km optimal with antimatter with blasters. Think that negates your entire argument. No wasted rig slots either. Not giving you the fit either.
Oh, and also, you don't need a tracking comp to get above 50km on scorch. You just need to think about it and you'll get above 50. Don't hurt yourself though.

So there, a short list. I've shown AC's get a long range in certain circumstances. Torps, Blasters, Pulses, they all hit out to sixty or higher if you know what the hell you're doing. Obviously you don't, or you'd have figured this out before crying that everything's broken. You'd probably be one of the people that would fit a large shield booster to a geddon, given the fact that you couldn't figure this out yourself.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2011-11-03 21:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Np liang im wont talk to you , it is like talking to a wall anyway. You just write the same bs all over and over and over again...
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#220 - 2011-11-03 21:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Liang Nuren wrote:

My only comment on this is that it was never tracking that drove me to use Projectiles and then Lasers. It was just that the reward (DPS) for getting into web+scram+neut range wasn't good enough to justify doing it. It also seems that you left out a bunch of ship changes which (I hear) make it easier to get into blaster range in the first place.

-Liang


I agree, the reward blasters get for living in scram range isn't worth it. One of many gripes I have with the list proposed is that (and the on-grid probing that plagues 100km+ sniping/rails). Oh and here's the bunch of ship changes you're alluding to:

Quote:

Max Velocity +10 on the following ships:

Arazu, Astarte, Brutix, Catalyst, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Enyo, Eos, Falcon, Guardian-Vexor, Helios, Incursus, Ishtar, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant


Max Velocity +5 on the following ships:
Cormorant, Federation Navy Comet, Hyperion, Kronos, Sin, Vindicator


Inertia Modifier -5% on the following ships:

Adrestia, Arazu, Ares, Astarte, Atron, Brutix, Catalyst, Celestis, Cormorant, Daredevil, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Eagle, Enyo, Eos, Eris, Exequror Navy Issue, Falcon, Federation Navy Comet, Ferox, Guardian-Vexor, Harpy, Helios, Hyperion, Incursus, Ishkur, Ishtar, Kronos, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Merlin, Moa, Phobos, Raptor, Rokh, Sin, Taranis, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant, Vindicator, Vulture


And before you say "oh but there's more!" This rounds out the blog:

Quote:

Tech II Ammo

• Javelin (all sizes): Removed cap penalty
• Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus
• Hail (all sizes): Removed falloff penalty


Call me pessimistic, but I don't see those love-taps kicking hybrid platforms into fighting shape.

Izuru Hishido wrote:

I've got a corpmate who has a mega setup that gets 60km optimal with antimatter with blasters. Think that negates your entire argument. No wasted rig slots either. Not giving you the fit either.


Newfag spotted.