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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#181 - 2011-11-03 16:13:23 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

1400mm Maelstrom
1400mm Tempest
Nano Tempest
720mm Nano Hurricane
Arty Muninn
Scimitar
Rapier
Huginn
Hound
Sabre
Broadsword

Vs

Caldari

HAM Drake
HML Drake
Nano Drake
HAM Tengu
100MN AB Tengu
Falcon
Rook
Basilisk
Cerberus
Manticore
Scorpion


Fixed.


Looks like someone is desperately grabbing at straws.
Izuru Hishido
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2011-11-03 18:47:18 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Too bad. I prefer fun and balanced to the "I win" button.


I counter your 'too bad' with a 'too ******* bad.' Suck it up and deal with it, there are plenty of counters. If you learned how to play the game, you'd know what they were.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#183 - 2011-11-03 19:06:50 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Then you will remember that the reason for the TE buff was not because ACs lacked tracking or needed more falloff, but because TDs got falloff added to the optimal range script. The argument was that there was no hard counter to TDs and because TDs were so good now - everyone would use them in their spare mids like ECM used to be. An awful argument at best. By the same logic, there should be a low slot mod that increases optimal. . .and that would buff pulse even more.


Comments:
- There is a low slot mod that increases optimal...
- The TD change happened well in advance of the Projectile changes. At the time of the Projectile changes, we were already seeing TDs becoming straight up hard counters to anything Minmatar. Claiming the argument is "awful at best" is simply deluding yourself with selective memory. :)

Quote:

And yes - you see the problem when ACs are married to the ships. As I see it, the problem is that when taken as a whole, ACs are simply too good right now. They were ******, that is why they had all those advantages.

And yes - I don't want to see projectiles nurfed to oblivion. Just take the edge off. Mainly 1) revert to the old ammo model - or at least tweak it so that they can't focus damage types. And give that ammo change to hybrid ammo. Reduce the flat dps increase from the previous 9% to something more reasonable, and remove the TE falloff bonus entirely.


Comments:
- Your changes are anything but "taking the edge off". A 9% damage penalty and removing falloff from TEs is totally ridiculous.
- If you're going to nerf projectiles in any significant fashion, it'll be a good idea to nerf lasers as well. The two really are that close, and I find myself usually preferring lasers in situations where there exists a reasonable base ship to fit them on.
- Suggesting a nerf to something and then a boost to something else in the same patch tends to create FOTM chasing - which IMO is bad for the game. I've never seen this work in all the years I've played MMOs. It really is best to wait until that hybrid buff settles down before suggesting any concrete nerf to projectiles.

[quote]and welcome back. while I don't agree with everything you say, its nice to have some reason back.


Thanks :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#184 - 2011-11-03 19:13:15 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Fun Fact. 5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake while 5 Drakes can watch a Vagabond escape.

Everyone forgets that in balance discussions.

It has proved to be important.


Wat.

Alara IonStorm wrote:

HAM Tengu, 2x Nano Drake and HAM Drake are small gang ships not blob boats. The Basilisk is a lesser Scimitar for when you don't have a Scimitar. The Falcon/Rook are not often big fleet assets. Not enough to be worth mentioning. The 1600mm Plate Scorp is one I forgot about.

Also you forgot the Vulture which means I did.


The Basilisk is almost wholesale superior to the Scimitar for small gang warfare. Large gangs too, I guess. Only time I'd go with a Scim is when I'm going into a mission/plex and need to keep up to the tackler as he crosses 70km to the next gate (repeatedly).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#185 - 2011-11-03 19:19:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Wat.

-Liang

The Person said take away Minmatars speed and there not that good as to show projectiles are not OP. But speed is important because while a Vagabond can not solo a Drake a group can catch one easy enough. A group of Drakes on the other hand get nothing more then to watch a Vagabond leave.

The difference is pretty big. Yet people tend look at the issue as if they are talking only about 1v1's when it comes to balancing.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#186 - 2011-11-03 19:24:28 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Wat.

-Liang

The Person said take away Minmatars speed and there not that good as to show projectiles are not OP. But speed is important because while a Vagabond can not solo a Drake a group can catch one easy enough. A group of Drakes on the other hand get nothing more then to watch a Vagabond leave.

The difference is pretty big. Yet people tend look at the issue as if they are talking only about 1v1's when it comes to balancing.


I'll have to remember that I got solo killed next time I die to five Vagabonds.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#187 - 2011-11-03 19:26:31 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I'll have to remember that I got solo killed next time I die to five Vagabonds.

-Liang

What are you talking about?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#188 - 2011-11-03 19:28:27 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I'll have to remember that I got solo killed next time I die to five Vagabonds.

-Liang

What are you talking about?


I even underlined it in your post before responding. "5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake". That's not soloing a Drake.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#189 - 2011-11-03 19:30:38 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I even underlined it in your post before responding. "5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake". That's not soloing a Drake.

-Liang

Stop getting caught up over typo's.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#190 - 2011-11-03 19:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Points: Projectiles have too many perks and not enough drawbacks. Minmatar ships take full advantage of this and feature some of the best stats and ship bonuses for skirmish and fleet combat to boot.

Counterpoints: Drakes! Scorch!

Effectiveness of counterpoints: 2/10

Considering the changes under development are for -hybrids- and (as far as any reasonable person can tell) those changes are not going to do much for hyrbids in comparison to projectiles. I'd say we're getting off topic arguing over drakes (nerf them, nerf heavy missiles too, who the hell cares?).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#191 - 2011-11-03 19:32:34 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I even underlined it in your post before responding. "5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake". That's not soloing a Drake.

-Liang

Stop getting caught up over typo's.


Lighten up. It wasn't meant to be a big deal, but you're making it one.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Izuru Hishido
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2011-11-03 19:34:46 UTC
What concerns me the most about this is that it took five vagabonds to kill the drake. Must be some really god-awful pilots in those vagas.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2011-11-03 19:37:52 UTC
****** liang is back defending the imba op matars again...
Alara IonStorm
#194 - 2011-11-03 19:39:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Lighten up. It wasn't meant to be a big deal, but you're making it one.

-Liang

Ok then, I will post that it is your fault and we will see if your forum OCD overrides your lighten up sentiment making you need the last word.

Ahem: It is in fact you who needs to lighten up.

Now to see if all this time away from the forum has changed Liang.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#195 - 2011-11-03 19:42:09 UTC
:pokerface:
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2011-11-03 19:47:18 UTC
Once upon a time, MWDs had a -25% shield penalty in addition to their -25% capacitor capacity penalty. Maybe that should be put back in.

It'd make nanokiting stuff much easier to kill if you caught it close range. Nanodrakes would be worse too, but they've already got huge range so it's unnecessary for them to be good at controlling it like the Minnies. Gallente and Amarr wouldn't be hit very hard at all except in specific circumstances (shield hype, brutix come to mind).

Then Minmatar will be much more fragile if they decide to go for close range with a shield gank fit, and have an interesting situation in an armor fit--not as good at tank or dps as Gallente in general due to fewer lows, but more utility for things like another web, TD, eccm, etc in extra mids.

Lasers were rubbish back when MWDs had the penalty though; a shield penalty might end up being a stealth buff to those already insane pulse using ships...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#197 - 2011-11-03 19:54:10 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
****** liang is back defending the imba op matars again...


Nah, I'm just saying that suggesting specific hybrid changes is really premature until the hybrid changes settle down - because that 's the biggest source of balancing QQ. And even then, if you're going to nerf projectiles you should probably nerf lasers too... which means there's a lot of instability introduced into the game.

It's probably best to go with the suggested path all along: make Hybrids actually useful and see where things are after that. Remember that CCP had a choice: nerf lasers (and probably torps) or boost everything else. They chose to boost projectiles to laser levels (And IMO did a fairly good job of it), but they left the job half finished by only boosting projectiles.

Hopefully they adequately finish the job here.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2011-11-03 19:57:38 UTC
Someone on page 3 or 4 seriously argued that Barrage and Scorch have the same ranges. Since it, perhaps, didn't get the point across the first time:

WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane.
WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.

I don't know how you guys could use an autocannon ship at any sort of range and say with a straight face, "Barrage is about as good as Scorch."
Izuru Hishido
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2011-11-03 20:01:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Izuru Hishido
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Someone on page 3 or 4 seriously argued that Barrage and Scorch have the same ranges. Since it, perhaps, didn't get the point across the first time:

WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane.
WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.

I don't know how you guys could use an autocannon ship at any sort of range and say with a straight face, "Barrage is about as good as Scorch."


Anyone else want to agree with me that Mfume is boss for this post?

Edit: Yes, I am an Amarr pilot. I've also been flying minmatar for about eight months, give or take two months, but I've found this. If I need to hit something at range, I get into a zealot or apoc. If I want to bash on something close, I get in an AC cane or Phoon. Barrage and scorch are by no means equal.

A friend of mine said a long time ago "Flying minmatar is learning how to fight in falloff." I believe I said when I got my first AC cane "No **** its about fighting in falloff."

So go blither on elsewhere that Scorch and Barrage are the same.
Alara IonStorm
#200 - 2011-11-03 20:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Mfume Apocal wrote:

WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane.
WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.

Artillery can do that, Barrage is more for close kiting in which Cap Use and Speed are a greater factor. Kiting Amarr Ships tend to be run down or run out of Cap.

Hurricane: 17Opt 33FO, 479 Gun DPS, 4000 Alpha, 61000 EHP, 1311m/s, 0 Cap Use and 3 Different Dmg Types
Maelstrom: 35Opt 57FO, 682DPS, 11000 Alpha, 117000 EHP, 835m/s, 0 Cap Use and 3 Different Dmg Types

Well I say that those Artillery Ships are just damn to good. So Projectiles almost meet your dream stats almost dead on with even a few improvements just not with Barrage.

Just so you know, I happen ton think Large Scorch needs a Nerf pretty badly. It makes Beams and Rails Pointless and as you can see above so does Artillery.