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Clone costs and old vets

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Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-05-15 04:20:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
...It doesn't matter if you have a 40M character or a 250M character, the most you can put to use in a combat cruiser is around 35M...
So a player choosing to but more skill points into a combat toon is making a poor choice... one with the increase cost of clones will cost them.

Do you agree?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#102 - 2013-05-15 04:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Tippia wrote:
There is no advantage.

Then don't use it.
So you agree that it's bad design, then. Game content should not be obsoleted by simply playing the game.

The point is: you are clueless about how the game works, so pipe down a bit before trying to dismiss problems with thoughtless platitudes.

Quote:
Train up another toon problem solved.
No, that does not solve the problem — it just spawns a new one.

Quote:
I have seen biiter vets tell new players they can be effective in one day to fly a Frigate. Why don't they do it?
What does that have to do with anything?

Quote:
So a player choosing to but more skill points into a combat toon is making a poor choice.
No.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-05-15 04:23:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:


DIsincentivising the use of small ships by old players is horrible design that has no upsides whatsoever.
This I agree with. A different argument.

Game mechanics that artificially restrict/linit players from PvP should be looked at.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2013-05-15 04:24:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
So you agree that it's bad design, then. Game content should not be obsoleted by simply playing the game.

The point is: you are clueless about how the game works, so pipe down a bit before trying to dismiss problems with thoughtless platitudes....
Lol
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#105 - 2013-05-15 04:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
It's like saying earning more real-life money is a poor choice because you will have to pay more taxes, and the only way to get around that is either to not earn money (equivalent: train skill points) or not pay taxes (equivalent: pvp).

How ******* ******** do you have to be to arrive at that kind of conjecture?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2013-05-15 04:25:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
So a player choosing to but more skill points into a combat toon is making a poor choice.
No.
Why isn' it? You know clone cost are going up?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-05-15 04:25:31 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Tippia wrote:


DIsincentivising the use of small ships by old players is horrible design that has no upsides whatsoever.
This I agree with. A different argument.

Game mechanics that artificially restrict/linit players from PvP should be looked at.

So you agree with everything you were just arguing against.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#108 - 2013-05-15 04:28:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
This I agree with. A different argument.

Game mechanics that artificially restrict/linit players from PvP should be looked at.
Nope. It's the actual argument. If you agree with it, then good — you've realised that the clone costs are horrible design (which is probably why they're being changed).

Again, why should they be barred from using fun ships just because they've used a single character for a long time?

Quote:
Why isn' it? You know clone cost are going up?
Because playing the game as intended is not a poor choice — rather, game mechanics that make it detrimental are inherently flawed and need to be fixed.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-05-15 04:28:40 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
It's like saying earning more money is a poor choice because you will have to pay more taxes, and the only way to get around that is either to not earn money (train skill points) or pay taxes (pvp).

How ******* ******** do you have to be to arrive at that kind of conjecture?
Risk vs reward. All things being equal you know the cost of clones for a higher skilled toon are... higher. It is the game mechanic.

I know it cost you ISK and you don't like that, but you should know that alos before you but that toon in a frigate.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#110 - 2013-05-15 04:31:21 UTC
Okay, I guess I'm going to have to stop flying frigates because I played this game for more than five years.

I fully realize and accept the error of my ways.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#111 - 2013-05-15 04:32:03 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Risk vs reward.
…except that, by design, there is no reward.

Quote:
I know it cost you ISK and you don't like that, but you should know that alos before you but that toon in a frigate.
Why should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time?
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#112 - 2013-05-15 04:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Mudflation and power creep are both limited by very expensive clone costs.

I don't know what's sadder, the fact that you can't see how clone costs are detrimental to the game or the fact that you believe this.


High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.

To remove clone costs would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.

There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.

I for one want to have more competition, not less, even if my char wont be as ubber as I want him to be right this instant.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#113 - 2013-05-15 04:34:21 UTC
Mara Villoso wrote:
The ship you're flying should be worth more than the cost to upgrade your clone. If it costs more to replace your clone than it does to buy and/or fit your ship, why did you train all those extra skills?


To wave my epeen in everyone's face when I kill them in a cheap meta fit T1 frigate.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-05-15 04:36:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nope. It's the actual argument..
For some it is. For example, CCP in their thread mention it as there goal... increase PvP. That is good.

But what happens if that actual result is bitter vets just save a couple of ISK. That the game needs to be modified because it is to hard for 200M skill point players. Seriously when does HTFU come into play?

Change the game for greater PvP... great.
Change the game so bitter Vet can save ISK... bad.

I would like to think that is why cost are only coming down 30%. So CCP can gauge the result, and if it truly effects PVP... reduce them drastically. That would be good for the game; and if biiter vets save a some ISK it is worth it. On the other hand if PvP is unaffected, this change needs to be reconsidered.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#115 - 2013-05-15 04:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages.
What advantages are those?

Quote:
There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players
Not really, no. The level cap already ensures this.

Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
But what happens if that actual result is bitter vets just save a couple of ISK.
That won't be the result. The people who will “just save a couple of ISK” are already not getting killed often enough to make it matter. The real effect comes from those who happily get blown up, but feel they need to protect their time investment by pushing the power curve upwards. They can now start flying fun ships again and stop being bitter.

Less power creep and happier players in one go — there are pretty much zero downsides (and no, as an ISK sink, clones are not big enough to really matter — it's less than 1% of the total ISK injected into the game and could be trivially replaced by more general sinks).
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2013-05-15 04:37:46 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:


So you agree with everything you were just arguing against.
I agree with improving game play... not with those claiming it isn't fair. Different animals.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-05-15 04:38:30 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Okay, I guess I'm going to have to stop flying frigates because I played this game for more than five years.

I fully realize and accept the error of my ways.
Another choice on your part.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#118 - 2013-05-15 04:39:33 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.

High clone costs aren't detrimental to high-SP characters; they're detrimental to characters who pvp a lot. A high-SP character used by a total carebear who never gets out of his Hulk/CNR shares no downside re: clone costs with a high-SP character who only flies around null shooting and getting shot by stuff.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
To remove them would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.

There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.

No, because you can be just as efficient in a hull with a character at 30 million skill points as one with 180 million. You can only train so many skills that effect a single unified set of ships and items in the game. The only thing that more skill points gets you is diversification, and that is not a direct advantage. It just means that you can fly more stuff, not fly it better.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-05-15 04:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tippia wrote:
IWhy should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time?
You are not barred... it just costs you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#120 - 2013-05-15 04:43:03 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Why should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time?
You are not barred... it just costs you.
…for no good reason. Why should it?