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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#581 - 2013-05-14 19:41:09 UTC
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Caljiav Ocanon wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
No. You guys need to get over the "8" number for the turrets. As its been said quite a few times, less turrets = less ammo and more importantly, less cap. As long as the damage is working out the same, then by all means, CCP, cut the amount of turrets for cap-using weapons.



Give me a compelling reason to buy a Navy Megathron then. Because right now, there really isn't one.

As it stands, more buffer isn't worth ~300m ISK. The extra drone DPS is situational at best.


Agreed.
In this case, the "8 turrets" intention is not meant to get the same DPS as before, it's to get more DPS than it's T1 counterpart.
CCP Fozzie has stated before that Navy (and even T2) isn't always meant as a straight upgrade (damage-wise) to its T1 counterpart. Specialization (in T2) lends for ships being better in certain areas (speed, in the case of the Vaga vs Stabber), while Navy can represent a straight survivability buff, especially when taking into account that the T1 ship might be putting out respectable damage, as is the case with the Mega and its 7 double bonused turrets and 8 lows. That's not to say that some Navy ships don't get unique bonuses and more damage (looks at Vexor NI).

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Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#582 - 2013-05-14 19:53:54 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Caljiav Ocanon wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
No. You guys need to get over the "8" number for the turrets. As its been said quite a few times, less turrets = less ammo and more importantly, less cap. As long as the damage is working out the same, then by all means, CCP, cut the amount of turrets for cap-using weapons.



Give me a compelling reason to buy a Navy Megathron then. Because right now, there really isn't one.

As it stands, more buffer isn't worth ~300m ISK. The extra drone DPS is situational at best.


Agreed.
In this case, the "8 turrets" intention is not meant to get the same DPS as before, it's to get more DPS than it's T1 counterpart.
CCP Fozzie has stated before that Navy (and even T2) isn't always meant as a straight upgrade (damage-wise) to its T1 counterpart. Specialization (in T2) lends for ships being better in certain areas (speed, in the case of the Vaga vs Stabber), while Navy can represent a straight survivability buff, especially when taking into account that the T1 ship might be putting out respectable damage, as is the case with the Mega and its 7 double bonused turrets and 8 lows. That's not to say that some Navy ships don't get unique bonuses and more damage (looks at Vexor NI).

For their price tags they are just horrible. And some are even more horrible than their t1 counterparts.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#583 - 2013-05-14 19:58:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


Then use a Typhoon. Same real DPS, but more survivable still. Or use a Fleet Typhoon. More raw DPS, but more survivable still.


Sure, just show me how to get a 10/10 capable shield tank + cap booster on a phoon with 5 mids like you can right now with the CNR (and will be better able to do with the new CNR), you simply can't so what I do with an active armor tank if you want to maintain that level of DPS.

That extra mid is GOLD in null sec, and it's on a ship with a native bonus that can help dig it out of trouble faster, unlike the Golem with it's less useful native bonus.


Quote:

-Liang

Ed: Also, no it will not be a marked improvement. Leaving the CNR completely alone would be an improvement over the current model, even with the extra mid. That's why I'm so irritated about the change. I like the extra mid and all but now the ship is just a really ****** Golem.


Have you considered how utterly and completely a 7 launcher + RoF bonus CNR would further shelve the Golem (no matter if cruise or torp), a tech2 ship that *should* be better than a navy faction ship? I don't think you are being realistic here, you know what CCP does to ships that do what I just described, they nerf the bejesus out of them right quick like.

Of course if CCP decided to do that (7+rof) I've abuse the unholy hell out of it, but the changes they are making are reasonable given the circumstances.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#584 - 2013-05-14 19:59:06 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:

Whatever dude. Any comments on the other races or are you a one-BS type of guy?


I actually commented on the battleships individually. But here, just because you're a special snowflake:
- Navy Geddon: I highly disapprove of the giant increase in sig radius. It's a totally unwarranted nerf.
- NApoc: I have no comment. I don't fly the Apoc or NApoc now, and don't really intend to. I might fly it with the new changes.
- CNR: I highly disapprove of trading the ROF bonus for 8 launchers. The damage application bonus is a cool idea. I like the extra mid.
- CNS: I am completely mindblown that CCP thinks the ship may be too powerful. The extra low is most likely to be used for fitting mods.
- Navy Mega: Doesn't seem dramatically changed really.
- Navy Domi: So glad he didn't take away the hybrid bonus. The increased calibration is gonna be Awesomeness.
- Fleet Phoon: Fully bonused 6/6 is pretty cool. They seem pretty intent on pushing a shield tank on it and it ate a small mobility nerf. I really preferred the armor tank.
- Fleet Pest: Meh. I own one and don't use it. I doubt I'll use it after this either.

-Liang


Guess you didn't catch the sarcasm dude. I read the whole thread but you seem to only hark on about the CNR.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#585 - 2013-05-14 20:01:57 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
while Navy can represent a straight survivability buff, especially when taking into account that the T1 ship might be putting out respectable damage, as is the case with the Mega and its 7 double bonused turrets and 8 lows.


This is why I like the Navy Domi while being slightly dissapointed that it won't share the sentry-centric bonuses as the T1. I switched to a navy domi from a regular domi for support in complexes because it was tougher, had that extra mid slot and more cap. So even though the dps was the same, it made for a much better swiss army style support ship. The odyssey Domi is evem ore of a beast with regards to defenses and cap.
stoicfaux
#586 - 2013-05-14 20:02:29 UTC
I too am unimpressed with the CNR's loss of its RoF bonus for mission oriented PvE. Tentative numbers: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_CLlTV8bSxNZUhPMlQ2NFdJRzg/edit?usp=sharing

You want to look at TTK (time to kill.)

The "Cruise Buff" CNR (middle top) is a CNR with just the cruise buff, 7 launchers and 400 rig points. It generally performs better than the 8 launcher, Er bonus CNR (Odyssey CNR, upper right.)

The Odyssey CNR pretty matches the Cruise Golem if you put rigors on the Golem. On the down side, NPC defenders hurt the Golem.

However, the "Cruise Buff" CNR (with the RoF bonus intact) would out-perform a Javelin torpedo Golem and is very (too?) competitive with a CN Torp Golem.


On a side note, the SNI and Navy Typhoon have me concerned, especially the Navy Phoon with its 8.25 effective launchers and five sentries?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#587 - 2013-05-14 20:06:08 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:

Whatever dude. Any comments on the other races or are you a one-BS type of guy?


I actually commented on the battleships individually. But here, just because you're a special snowflake:
- Navy Geddon: I highly disapprove of the giant increase in sig radius. It's a totally unwarranted nerf.
- NApoc: I have no comment. I don't fly the Apoc or NApoc now, and don't really intend to. I might fly it with the new changes.
- CNR: I highly disapprove of trading the ROF bonus for 8 launchers. The damage application bonus is a cool idea. I like the extra mid.
- CNS: I am completely mindblown that CCP thinks the ship may be too powerful. The extra low is most likely to be used for fitting mods.
- Navy Mega: Doesn't seem dramatically changed really.
- Navy Domi: So glad he didn't take away the hybrid bonus. The increased calibration is gonna be Awesomeness.
- Fleet Phoon: Fully bonused 6/6 is pretty cool. They seem pretty intent on pushing a shield tank on it and it ate a small mobility nerf. I really preferred the armor tank.
- Fleet Pest: Meh. I own one and don't use it. I doubt I'll use it after this either.

-Liang


Guess you didn't catch the sarcasm dude. I read the whole thread but you seem to only hark on about the CNR.


Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#588 - 2013-05-14 20:09:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:


the cnr having the same base dps as the raven isn't a good thing imo, ok I know it will be better applied in this version but forcing it to use 8 launchers instead of the 6 of the raven to get the same result is painful.


It's not the same result, though: it's qualitatively superior in damage application and alpha.

They'll both be equally good for shooting structures and capitals, I suppose. For anything else, the CNR will be a quantum step ahead.


I dunno man. Stop and think about it this way. The damage application on the CNR is already good enough that people weren't clamoring to use Cruise Golems despite the dramatically superior damage application. The new bonus is extremely underwhelming and an outright nerf to the CNR.

-Liang


Can you propose a scenario where the CNR will be worse on June 5th than it is right now?


You cant fit 8 Torpedo luncher + 3 Missiles-Rigs. You wont have enough CPU for that. You would need to fit Co-Processor for that.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#589 - 2013-05-14 20:11:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang


It's a nerf yes but I'd argue it's well deserved concidering the other buffs it got. Not to mention there is no reason to break the norm of weapon systems being sig appropriate for their ship class. Exceptions like the machariel are excuseable because of its pricetag and role.

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Mra Rednu
Oyonata Gate Defence Force.
#590 - 2013-05-14 20:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mra Rednu
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:

Whatever dude. Any comments on the other races or are you a one-BS type of guy?


I actually commented on the battleships individually. But here, just because you're a special snowflake:
- Navy Geddon: I highly disapprove of the giant increase in sig radius. It's a totally unwarranted nerf.
- NApoc: I have no comment. I don't fly the Apoc or NApoc now, and don't really intend to. I might fly it with the new changes.
- CNR: I highly disapprove of trading the ROF bonus for 8 launchers. The damage application bonus is a cool idea. I like the extra mid.
- CNS: I am completely mindblown that CCP thinks the ship may be too powerful. The extra low is most likely to be used for fitting mods.
- Navy Mega: Doesn't seem dramatically changed really.
- Navy Domi: So glad he didn't take away the hybrid bonus. The increased calibration is gonna be Awesomeness.
- Fleet Phoon: Fully bonused 6/6 is pretty cool. They seem pretty intent on pushing a shield tank on it and it ate a small mobility nerf. I really preferred the armor tank.
- Fleet Pest: Meh. I own one and don't use it. I doubt I'll use it after this either.

-Liang


Guess you didn't catch the sarcasm dude. I read the whole thread but you seem to only hark on about the CNR.


Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang


I'm a one BS type of guy and the Geddon change is **** and now they nerfing the Navy Geddon with it's sig and that is also ****.

mama guru wrote:
It's a nerf yes but I'd argue it's well deserved concidering the other buffs it got. Not to mention there is no reason to break the norm of weapon systems being sig appropriate for their ship class. Exceptions like the machariel are excuseable because of its pricetag and role.


Interested to hear where the buffs are, a few stats here and there but i not see a buff esp if compare to some of the other hulls.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#591 - 2013-05-14 20:16:44 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:

Whatever dude. Any comments on the other races or are you a one-BS type of guy?


I actually commented on the battleships individually. But here, just because you're a special snowflake:
- Navy Geddon: I highly disapprove of the giant increase in sig radius. It's a totally unwarranted nerf.
- NApoc: I have no comment. I don't fly the Apoc or NApoc now, and don't really intend to. I might fly it with the new changes.
- CNR: I highly disapprove of trading the ROF bonus for 8 launchers. The damage application bonus is a cool idea. I like the extra mid.
- CNS: I am completely mindblown that CCP thinks the ship may be too powerful. The extra low is most likely to be used for fitting mods.
- Navy Mega: Doesn't seem dramatically changed really.
- Navy Domi: So glad he didn't take away the hybrid bonus. The increased calibration is gonna be Awesomeness.
- Fleet Phoon: Fully bonused 6/6 is pretty cool. They seem pretty intent on pushing a shield tank on it and it ate a small mobility nerf. I really preferred the armor tank.
- Fleet Pest: Meh. I own one and don't use it. I doubt I'll use it after this either.

-Liang


Guess you didn't catch the sarcasm dude. I read the whole thread but you seem to only hark on about the CNR.


Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang


Well it's sig radius is smaller than the Navy Domi and the Navy Scorpion so I really don't know what your gripe is with that one...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#592 - 2013-05-14 20:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Jason Sirober wrote:

Well it's sig radius is smaller than the Navy Domi and the Navy Scorpion so I really don't know what your gripe is with that one...


It might have something to do with this: Signature radius: 440 (+70)

And this:

CCP Rise wrote:

As a ‘combat’ ship, it will get some increased hitpoints along with other tweaks to its base stats, but its overall performance shouldn’t change much.


That's a pretty substantial nerf.

-Liang

Ed: I also don't expect to get anywhere on the subject of sig radius with Rise. I've argued with him at length about the effect of sig radius and he was pretty intransigent on the subject that low sig radius means almost literally nothing.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#593 - 2013-05-14 20:21:29 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
I too am unimpressed with the CNR's loss of its RoF bonus for mission oriented PvE. Tentative numbers: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_CLlTV8bSxNZUhPMlQ2NFdJRzg/edit?usp=sharing

You want to look at TTK (time to kill.)

The "Cruise Buff" CNR (middle top) is a CNR with just the cruise buff, 7 launchers and 400 rig points. It generally performs better than the 8 launcher, Er bonus CNR (Odyssey CNR, upper right.)

The Odyssey CNR pretty matches the Cruise Golem if you put rigors on the Golem. On the down side, NPC defenders hurt the Golem.

However, the "Cruise Buff" CNR (with the RoF bonus intact) would out-perform a Javelin torpedo Golem and is very (too?) competitive with a CN Torp Golem.


On a side note, the SNI and Navy Typhoon have me concerned, especially the Navy Phoon with its 8.25 effective launchers and five sentries?



Sounds like thr Rof bonused odyssey CNR would be too close a match for the tech 2 Golem.. as I predicted 2 posts prior to the above! lol

So there are the choices, currently proposed Odyssey CNR being a slightly worse cruise Golem of a RoF bonused Odyssey CNR being basically the same as a Torp Golem with fewer utility slots and less tank.

I'd rather the current;y proposed CNR, Golem is underused enough. The Navy Phoon might get nerfed if it comes out like that... and I will 'sploit the hell out of it till they do lol.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#594 - 2013-05-14 20:21:37 UTC
So you're upset with the Navy Geddon's nerf to sig but you're OK with the Scorp and Domi's nerf to the same thing?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#595 - 2013-05-14 20:21:43 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:

Whatever dude. Any comments on the other races or are you a one-BS type of guy?


I actually commented on the battleships individually. But here, just because you're a special snowflake:
- Navy Geddon: I highly disapprove of the giant increase in sig radius. It's a totally unwarranted nerf.
- NApoc: I have no comment. I don't fly the Apoc or NApoc now, and don't really intend to. I might fly it with the new changes.
- CNR: I highly disapprove of trading the ROF bonus for 8 launchers. The damage application bonus is a cool idea. I like the extra mid.
- CNS: I am completely mindblown that CCP thinks the ship may be too powerful. The extra low is most likely to be used for fitting mods.
- Navy Mega: Doesn't seem dramatically changed really.
- Navy Domi: So glad he didn't take away the hybrid bonus. The increased calibration is gonna be Awesomeness.
- Fleet Phoon: Fully bonused 6/6 is pretty cool. They seem pretty intent on pushing a shield tank on it and it ate a small mobility nerf. I really preferred the armor tank.
- Fleet Pest: Meh. I own one and don't use it. I doubt I'll use it after this either.

-Liang


Guess you didn't catch the sarcasm dude. I read the whole thread but you seem to only hark on about the CNR.


Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang


I've mentioned it in this thread. I'll be pushing for a review of this stat because I don't see why the Navgeddon needs to be so fat.


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#596 - 2013-05-14 20:26:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

I've mentioned it in this thread. I'll be pushing for a review of this stat because I don't see why the Navgeddon needs to be so fat.




I hope you'll be pushing a review of that stat for the Navy Domi and Navy Scorpion too?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#597 - 2013-05-14 20:27:05 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
So you're upset with the Navy Geddon's nerf to sig but you're OK with the Scorp and Domi's nerf to the same thing?


Yes, actually. Sig has always been a part of the Geddon's tank and the increase is quite substantial. The nerf is significantly larger relative to the SNI and NDomi (who always had relatively large sig radiuses)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#598 - 2013-05-14 20:29:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The CNR doesn't really get you anything except being able to fly it with "max DPS" with Caldari BS 1.

-Liang
Actually, Navy ships will take BS II on June 4.... :P

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#599 - 2013-05-14 20:31:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:
So you're upset with the Navy Geddon's nerf to sig but you're OK with the Scorp and Domi's nerf to the same thing?


Yes, actually. Sig has always been a part of the Geddon's tank and the increase is quite substantial. The nerf is significantly larger relative to the SNI and NDomi (who always had relatively large sig radiuses)

-Liang


But now that the Geddon has a Domi's drone bay I suspect that increased sig is deserved... Unless it was a typo and they take away that absurd drone bay which would make it OK to decrease the sig radius
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#600 - 2013-05-14 20:32:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:

Whatever dude. Any comments on the other races or are you a one-BS type of guy?


I actually commented on the battleships individually. But here, just because you're a special snowflake:
- Navy Geddon: I highly disapprove of the giant increase in sig radius. It's a totally unwarranted nerf.
- NApoc: I have no comment. I don't fly the Apoc or NApoc now, and don't really intend to. I might fly it with the new changes.
- CNR: I highly disapprove of trading the ROF bonus for 8 launchers. The damage application bonus is a cool idea. I like the extra mid.
- CNS: I am completely mindblown that CCP thinks the ship may be too powerful. The extra low is most likely to be used for fitting mods.
- Navy Mega: Doesn't seem dramatically changed really.
- Navy Domi: So glad he didn't take away the hybrid bonus. The increased calibration is gonna be Awesomeness.
- Fleet Phoon: Fully bonused 6/6 is pretty cool. They seem pretty intent on pushing a shield tank on it and it ate a small mobility nerf. I really preferred the armor tank.
- Fleet Pest: Meh. I own one and don't use it. I doubt I'll use it after this either.

-Liang


Guess you didn't catch the sarcasm dude. I read the whole thread but you seem to only hark on about the CNR.


Nobody seems to give a damn about the geddon's sig increase. It's probably the next biggest thing on my list.

-Liang


I've mentioned it in this thread. I'll be pushing for a review of this stat because I don't see why the Navgeddon needs to be so fat.




You should ask them why its getting that cavernous drone bay while you're at it, doesn't really fit with the ship or the -1 slot for drone boat motif, and its most definitely a drone boat at 375m3 of drones.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.