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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#561 - 2013-05-14 18:20:04 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Liang Nuren <<<< I stick to You'r post about You saying that new CNR will be worse in ALL PVE not PVP.
On June 5th we will get better CNR (cruise buff included) for lvl4 missions, for incursions etc. that's true, You and everyone else can't deny.
Second thing ships in EVE are better for one and worse for other, no one is complaining that his Interdictor is not good at lvl4s as another dude BS... and even devs say about CNR in mission running boat terms.


Ok, so the devs talk about the CNR in terms of cruise missiles and PVE. That's great. Let's focus on that. Once the patch rolls around we'll be looking at a situation where the raw damage output of the CNR is equal to the Golem. Except it has worse damage application and no utility highs.

It is nothing but a worse Golem. We don't need two Golems. We need a CNR.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#562 - 2013-05-14 18:21:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Altimo wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I use missile ships for support, i don't salvage (corp noobs do that to give them an income) and I tend to use FoFs so I don't have to pay attention to it (so i can fly my mach/nightmare/whatever). And the Golem takes wayyyy longer to skill for so i said screw that on my missile toon. And the Golem gets jammed by Guristas is they just sneeze on it.


Marauders aren't exactly hard to train. Far and away the most onerous requirement is BS 5... so I guess if you aren't going to bother training your skills up there's not a lot to worry about. On the bright side, the CNR now doesn't require any training at all to get full DPS. Lol

-Liang


Don't forget AWU5 that is pretty intensive to train as well =p But I agree we don't need 2 golems, one being worse. Are you saying there was no need to change the CNR just leave it as is? I think just keeping the 7th mid slot and keeping that is fine but leaving the rest alone. I wouldn't be opposed to them doing that, and then increasing the CPU and powergrid to make it easier to fit.


Yeah, I'm really aiming for keeping the 7 launchers and a ROF bonus. I won't be terribly opposed either of the other two bonuses - missile velocity or explo radius.

-Liang
t
h
At would obviously be better at making t useful for pvp....so much better for PVE it'd get nerf right out from under us in short order. That's a big part of the problem, the difference between pvp and pve.

And while the new CNR might be similar to the Golem, who's to say the Golem won't get changed next?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#563 - 2013-05-14 18:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Jenn aSide wrote:
that would obviously be better at making t useful for pvp....so much better for PVE it'd get nerf right out from under us in short order. That's a big part of the problem, the difference between pvp and pve.

And while the new CNR might be similar to the Golem, who's to say the Golem won't get changed next?


It'd be both more useful in PVE and PVP. However, I doubt we'd see a nerf based on PVE because even with the buff it still won't be king of PVE.

-Liang

Ed: Also, who's to say the Golem isn't getting changed next? Why, the devs of course. They already told us what's coming up and that Marauders are quite far back on the backlog.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#564 - 2013-05-14 18:29:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
that would obviously be better at making t useful for pvp....so much better for PVE it'd get nerf right out from under us in short order. That's a big part of the problem, the difference between pvp and pve.

And while the new CNR might be similar to the Golem, who's to say the Golem won't get changed next?


It'd be both more useful in PVE and PVP. However, I doubt we'd see a nerf based on PVE because even with the buff it still won't be king of PVE.

-Liang

Ed: Also, who's to say the Golem isn't getting changed next? Why, the devs of course. They already told us what's coming up and that Marauders are quite far back on the backlog.


Whatever dude. Any comments on the other races or are you a one-BS type of guy?
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#565 - 2013-05-14 18:30:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
t
h
At would obviously be better at making t useful for pvp....so much better for PVE it'd get nerf right out from under us in short order. That's a big part of the problem, the difference between pvp and pve.

And while the new CNR might be similar to the Golem, who's to say the Golem won't get changed next?


Changing Marauders is another topic entirely, so I think the point Liang is making, is that we don't need to be creating worse versions of more expensive ships. The CNR should be a CNR and Golem is a Golem, a different ship entirely.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#566 - 2013-05-14 18:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Johnson Oramara wrote:

There are skills that increase your sensors like Gravimetric Sensor Compensation, also like you fit resistances against damage you can fit against ecm which i thought is normal against guristas at this point?



And in a Golem you will still get jammed even withGrav comp 5 and losing a mid slot to ECCM or a low slot to a Sensor Backup array.. You don't want to be jammed in the middle of a Guristas Forlorn Hub (after a double spawn) or part 3 of fleet staging point lol, trust me. If you are you want FoF missles, and the new CNR will throw out more effective FoF missles while being less likely still to get jammed in the 1st place.

That's just guristas space, you really REALLY don't want a Golem to get neuted out from under it's active tank (losing it's target painters in the process) in Blood Raider space. Golem loses 100% of it's damage projection powers if neuted to zero cap, new CNR doesn't lose it all, just the target painter. fitting a cap booster in BR space will save you...at the expense of damage projection OR tank on the Golem, New CNR just give up the unbonused TP......

Like I said, this new CNR offers some alternative the Goelm can't match in null pve.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#567 - 2013-05-14 18:31:52 UTC
The problem is how ridiculous buff the cruise missiles are getting, it's like they only now came across CNR and were like "isn't this thing a bit high on the dps?" If you "balance" cruise missiles so high that you can't have a ship with 7 launchers and 5% rof per level bonus then something is wrong... Those all missile battleships will be so similar it's not even funny... even if some are like half billion.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#568 - 2013-05-14 18:38:06 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:

Whatever dude. Any comments on the other races or are you a one-BS type of guy?


I actually commented on the battleships individually. But here, just because you're a special snowflake:
- Navy Geddon: I highly disapprove of the giant increase in sig radius. It's a totally unwarranted nerf.
- NApoc: I have no comment. I don't fly the Apoc or NApoc now, and don't really intend to. I might fly it with the new changes.
- CNR: I highly disapprove of trading the ROF bonus for 8 launchers. The damage application bonus is a cool idea. I like the extra mid.
- CNS: I am completely mindblown that CCP thinks the ship may be too powerful. The extra low is most likely to be used for fitting mods.
- Navy Mega: Doesn't seem dramatically changed really.
- Navy Domi: So glad he didn't take away the hybrid bonus. The increased calibration is gonna be Awesomeness.
- Fleet Phoon: Fully bonused 6/6 is pretty cool. They seem pretty intent on pushing a shield tank on it and it ate a small mobility nerf. I really preferred the armor tank.
- Fleet Pest: Meh. I own one and don't use it. I doubt I'll use it after this either.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#569 - 2013-05-14 18:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Liang Nuren wrote:


It'd be both more useful in PVE and PVP.


I don't see how (taken all together with the cruise buff) the current CNR is -not- useful in PVE, andthis new one will have an extra mid slot, more room for rigs like normal BS, an extra launcher that at least partially compensates to the RoF bonus loss and a damage application bonus that will help it kill small things faster (which is good in high sec but booty-grabbingly awesome in null).

It will be able to do what a Golem does almost, without all that annoying as hell TP juggling, while being cheaper and easier to train for.


What magical thing is supposed to happen to make the CNR worse at PVE than it is right this moment other than not being able to use a tractor beam or drone link augmenter?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#570 - 2013-05-14 18:40:02 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:

There are skills that increase your sensors like Gravimetric Sensor Compensation, also like you fit resistances against damage you can fit against ecm which i thought is normal against guristas at this point?



And in a Golem you will still get jammed even withGrav comp 5 and losing a mid slot to ECCM or a low slot to a Sensor Backup array.. You don't want to be jammed in the middle of a Guristas Forlorn Hub (after a double spawn) or part 3 of fleet staging point lol, trust me. If you are you want FoF missles, and the new CNR will throw out more effective FoF missles while being less likely still to get jammed in the 1st place.

That's just guristas space, you really REALLY don't want a Golem to get neuted out from under it's active tank (losing it's target painters in the process) in Blood Raider space. Golem loses 100% of it's damage projection powers if neuted to zero cap, new CNR doesn't lose it all, just the target painter. fitting a cap booster in BR space will save you...at the expense of damage projection OR tank on the Golem, New CNR just give up the unbonused TP......

Like I said, this new CNR offers some alternative the Goelm can't match in null pve.


You are aware that the Golem gets both a native bonus as well as the painter bonus? The CNR doesn't really get you anything except being able to fly it with "max DPS" with Caldari BS 1. The jamming thing is true though. That's kinda irritating, but I don't fly against Caldari that often so it doesn't bother me much. Overall, the CNR is still just a ****** Golem though.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#571 - 2013-05-14 18:44:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


It'd be both more useful in PVE and PVP.


I don't see how (taken all together with the cruise buff) the current CNR is -not- useful in PVE, andthis new one will have an extra mid slot, more room for rigs like normal BS, an extra launcher that at least partially compensates to the RoF bonus loss and a damage application bonus that will help it kill small things faster (which is good in high sec but booty-grabbingly awesome in null).

It will be able to do what a Golem does almost, without all that annoying as hell TP juggling, while being cheaper and easier to train for.


What magical thing is supposed to happen to make the CNR worse at PVE than it is right this moment other than not being able to use a tractor beam or drone link augmenter?


I'm not sure why you're being so difficult about this. The ship you're extolling the virtues of already exists. The Golem has a native missile damage application bonus, 7 mids, and 8 effective launchers. Except it also gets utility high slots, a tank bonus, and an extra damage application bonus. You complain about the painter bonus - but ignoring it leaves you tons of room for copious amounts of ECCM.

The new CNR is just bad.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#572 - 2013-05-14 18:49:58 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


It'd be both more useful in PVE and PVP.


I don't see how (taken all together with the cruise buff) the current CNR is -not- useful in PVE, andthis new one will have an extra mid slot, more room for rigs like normal BS, an extra launcher that at least partially compensates to the RoF bonus loss and a damage application bonus that will help it kill small things faster (which is good in high sec but booty-grabbingly awesome in null).

It will be able to do what a Golem does almost, without all that annoying as hell TP juggling, while being cheaper and easier to train for.


What magical thing is supposed to happen to make the CNR worse at PVE than it is right this moment other than not being able to use a tractor beam or drone link augmenter?


I'm not sure why you're being so difficult about this. The ship you're extolling the virtues of already exists. The Golem has a native missile damage application bonus, 7 mids, and 8 effective launchers. Except it also gets utility high slots, a tank bonus, and an extra damage application bonus. You complain about the painter bonus - but ignoring it leaves you tons of room for copious amounts of ECCM.

The new CNR is just bad.

-Liang


In actual practice , explosion radius bonus will make the Golem's bonus look like peanuts when your taking about cruise missiles and frigs (it's why Rigors are better than Flares for cruise boats). The Golem is a Torp boat and crap at cruises, the new CNR is built for cruises and will be more useful in the kinds of pve where you'd use them.

I think you're in morning for your CNR Torp monster, but it's ok...you still have the Golem Big smile .
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#573 - 2013-05-14 18:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Jenn aSide wrote:

In actual practice , explosion radius bonus will make the Golem's bonus look like peanuts when your taking about cruise missiles and frigs (it's why Rigors are better than Flares for cruise boats). The Golem is a Torp boat and crap at cruises, the new CNR is built for cruises and will be more useful in the kinds of pve where you'd use them.

I think you're in morning for your CNR Torp monster, but it's ok...you still have the Golem Big smile .


Saying that the Golem is "crap at cruise" and that the new CNR is going to be decent in the same breath is simply mind blowing. They're exactly the same ship, except that the Golem is very very significantly better.

-Liang

Ed: In case you forgot, the reason the Golem is known as a "torp boat" is because the CNR was so much better at cruise due to having more raw DPS. The amped up damage application was necessary with torps... not so much with cruise. Now the only differences between them is that the CNR has worse damage application, worse tank, no utility, and more sensor strength.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#574 - 2013-05-14 18:54:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


It'd be both more useful in PVE and PVP.


I don't see how (taken all together with the cruise buff) the current CNR is -not- useful in PVE, andthis new one will have an extra mid slot, more room for rigs like normal BS, an extra launcher that at least partially compensates to the RoF bonus loss and a damage application bonus that will help it kill small things faster (which is good in high sec but booty-grabbingly awesome in null).

It will be able to do what a Golem does almost, without all that annoying as hell TP juggling, while being cheaper and easier to train for.


What magical thing is supposed to happen to make the CNR worse at PVE than it is right this moment other than not being able to use a tractor beam or drone link augmenter?


I'm not sure why you're being so difficult about this. The ship you're extolling the virtues of already exists. The Golem has a native missile damage application bonus, 7 mids, and 8 effective launchers. Except it also gets utility high slots, a tank bonus, and an extra damage application bonus. You complain about the painter bonus - but ignoring it leaves you tons of room for copious amounts of ECCM.

The new CNR is just bad.

-Liang

And while he is going about how CNR is cheaper than Golem then why does he not use Typhoon? It doesn't really lack anything the CNR has or heck you can even fit Raven which performs as well.

So in the end CNR does not offer anything that the others already wont offer more cheaply (Typhoon, Raven) or do way better (Golem)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#575 - 2013-05-14 18:55:52 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

In actual practice , explosion radius bonus will make the Golem's bonus look like peanuts when your taking about cruise missiles and frigs (it's why Rigors are better than Flares for cruise boats). The Golem is a Torp boat and crap at cruises, the new CNR is built for cruises and will be more useful in the kinds of pve where you'd use them.

I think you're in morning for your CNR Torp monster, but it's ok...you still have the Golem Big smile .


Saying that the Golem is "crap at cruise" and that the new CNR is going to be decent in the same breath is simply mind blowing. They're exactly the same ship, except that the Golem is very very significantly better.

-Liang


Only in the ways you say you use it. In the ways others use it it will be a marked improvement. Even if one were to concede it was "just like the Golem" (I do not), it's a cheaper, easeir to train for, less jammable, more survivable in null sec Golem.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#576 - 2013-05-14 18:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Jenn aSide wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

In actual practice , explosion radius bonus will make the Golem's bonus look like peanuts when your taking about cruise missiles and frigs (it's why Rigors are better than Flares for cruise boats). The Golem is a Torp boat and crap at cruises, the new CNR is built for cruises and will be more useful in the kinds of pve where you'd use them.

I think you're in morning for your CNR Torp monster, but it's ok...you still have the Golem Big smile .


Saying that the Golem is "crap at cruise" and that the new CNR is going to be decent in the same breath is simply mind blowing. They're exactly the same ship, except that the Golem is very very significantly better.

-Liang


Only in the ways you say you use it. In the ways others use it it will be a marked improvement. Even if one were to concede it was "just like the Golem" (I do not), it's a cheaper, easeir to train for, less jammable, more survivable in null sec Golem.


Then use a Typhoon. Same real DPS, but more survivable still. Or use a Fleet Typhoon. More raw DPS, but more survivable still.

-Liang

Ed: Also, no it will not be a marked improvement. Leaving the CNR completely alone would be an improvement over the current model, even with the extra mid. That's why I'm so irritated about the change. I like the extra mid and all but now the ship is just a really ****** Golem.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#577 - 2013-05-14 18:58:12 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

In actual practice , explosion radius bonus will make the Golem's bonus look like peanuts when your taking about cruise missiles and frigs (it's why Rigors are better than Flares for cruise boats). The Golem is a Torp boat and crap at cruises, the new CNR is built for cruises and will be more useful in the kinds of pve where you'd use them.

I think you're in morning for your CNR Torp monster, but it's ok...you still have the Golem Big smile .


Saying that the Golem is "crap at cruise" and that the new CNR is going to be decent in the same breath is simply mind blowing. They're exactly the same ship, except that the Golem is very very significantly better.

-Liang

Ed: In case you forgot, the reason the Golem is known as a "torp boat" is because the CNR was so much better at cruise due to having more raw DPS. The amped up damage application was necessary with torps... not so much with cruise. Now the only differences between them is that the CNR has worse damage application, worse tank, no utility, and more sensor strength.

Exactly, he just lost all his creditability in that one sentence...
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#578 - 2013-05-14 19:02:42 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Only in the ways you say you use it. In the ways others use it it will be a marked improvement. Even if one were to concede it was "just like the Golem" (I do not), it's a cheaper, easeir to train for, less jammable, more survivable in null sec Golem.


It's not as if the CNR is vastly cheaper than a Golem. While it is less Jammable, I guess you don't see the effectiveness of 8 launchers + 3 utility high slots. Lets say a Golem lost that weakness to Jamming, do you have any idea how vastly superior the ship would be with 8 missile launchers + 3 utility high slots? It's like comparing heaven and earth.

Effectively in any given situation (aside from being jammed) the Golem is superior at everything the CNR does, with its current set up.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#579 - 2013-05-14 19:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:
Hey Grath

Although I hate PL and you and since you are in PL, but I have to applaud for doing a great job combating the many idiocy statements shown here in this thread. Keep up the good work!

For the rest , here are some videos you might want to watch:

E-UNI Combat Mechanics 101, part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz9NtV-AI1k

E-UNI Combat Mechanics 101, part 2 -> around 2:25 in this video talks about explosion velocity **just a heads up :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKG60p2jQjg

By the way, I am also a mission runner. Plz don't put all of us in the same boat. Thank you.


This made me laugh really hard :D Just another randomguy who blatantly screams that he doesn't have any idea wtf he's talking about.

Edit: Can I please get a single "Like" button for Liangs latest 35 posts?
Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#580 - 2013-05-14 19:30:30 UTC
Time for an exhaustive comparision of a rawDPS-CNR vs an application-CNR.

For this test, both ships were equipped with 8 T2 Cruise Launchers, 2 PWNAGE and 4 Caldari Navy BCU. The rawDPS-CNR had a T2 Bay Loading Accelerator and 2 T1 Warhead Flare Catalysts as rigs (2 flares are actually better than 1 Rigor), while the application-CNR went for 2x Rigor+Flare.

Compared where the performances with T1- und Fury-Missiles.

At first some raw numbers:

Alpha: Both ships hit for up to 749 damage per T1-missile and 1048.6 damage per Fury missile, leading to alphas of 5992 damage and 8388.8 damage, respectively.

Rate of Fire: The launchers of the CNR cycle every 7.99 secs after taking reload time into account. The launchers of the application-CNR cycle every 8.48 seconds.

Explosion Velocity: T1s und Furies have an explosion velocity of 136.9 respectively 115 on the DPS-CNR, while the ones of the application-CNR reach 119 respectively 100.

Explosion Radius: DPS-CNR 185.6m / 319.5m, application-CNR 134.1/230.7

But enough of this dry numbers, let's see how this beasts hit their targets. To simulate this I created 3 "average" NPC:

"Frigate": 360m/sec; 29m Sigradius

Both ships are rather anemic here:

A salvo T1-cruises from the DPS-CNR hits this frig with about 14% of damage, resulting in an alpha strike of 843.2 and DPS of 105.5, while Furies hit with about 7%, leading to an alpha strike of 582 and 72.8 DPS.

Meanwhile, T1s of the application-CNR hit with 16.6% of their total damage, resulting in 992.9 alpha and 117 DPS, while Furies hit with 8.2 percent, 689 alpha and 81.2 DPS.

"Cruiser": 160 m/sec; 190m Sigradius

T1s from the DPS-CNR hit for full damage, resulting in an alpha of 5992 and 749.9 DPS. Furies hit for 79.8% damage, dealing 6693.6 alpha and 837.8 DPS.

T1s from the application-CNR hit for full damage, 5992 alpha and 706.3 DPS. Furies hit for 95.6%, 7924.8 alpha and 934.2 DPS.

"Battleship":140 m/sec, 400m Sigradius

T1s from the DPS-CNR hit for full damage, resulting in an alpha of 5992 and 749.9 DPS. Furies hit for full damage, 8388.8 alpha and 1049.9 DPS.

T1s from the application-CNR hit for full damage, 5992 alpha and 706.3 DPS. Furies hit for full damage, 8388.8 alpha and 988.8 DPS.

This whole analysis in spreadsheet form.

You should only fly the application-CNR if you, really, really want to shoot expensive missiles on small stuff.