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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#541 - 2013-05-14 17:48:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I've personally seen more CNRs in PVP than Nightmares and Bhaalgorns combined. It wasn't that uncommon before people hopped on the Tengu Craze.

-Liang


Was this when missiles were more common in PVP? Like before they nerfed torp range to almost nothing? Just curious.

With these wonderful changes to cruise missiles, I'm starting to wonder what's going to happen to torps in the future, if anything at all, since torps are kind of useless now that cruise missiles seem vastly superior.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2013-05-14 17:48:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, I'm not ignoring the cruise missile buff. I'm just assuming that it applies to all ships evenly. But hey, maybe the cruise missile buff only applies to the CNR and I wasn't told about it. As to Foxcats: yes, I agree that they exist. However, I haven't seen them personally. Might be something to do with living in different parts of space and having different experiences in Eve.

But, on the subject of CNRs in PVP: it won't be used because there's no reason to. It doesn't have superior DPS, it doesn't have superior anything. It's just objectively worse at all things than the competition.

-Liang


You are dead wrong. Navy Apoc doesn't have superior DPS either. Reason it gets used is range, which the cruise CNR will have Plenty of... Please tell me how many fleets of Megathron's have you seen around ever (excluding those snowflakes who brings it along to a Rokh fleet)? That's because extreme close range DPS in BS hull don't go hand in hand with fleet work...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#543 - 2013-05-14 17:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
mama guru wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
But, on the subject of CNRs in PVP: it won't be used because there's no reason to. It doesn't have superior DPS, it doesn't have superior anything. It's just objectively worse at all things than the competition.

-Liang



That's why nobody is using it today, before the oddysey improvements.

The last time I saw a CNR in pvp was in 06-07 when BURN EDEN used them with warp core stabs and 4000ms nano fits.


Last time I saw a CNR in PVP was in 2013 in a Heretic fleet.

-Liang

Ed:
Altimo wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I've personally seen more CNRs in PVP than Nightmares and Bhaalgorns combined. It wasn't that uncommon before people hopped on the Tengu Craze.

-Liang


Was this when missiles were more common in PVP? Like before they nerfed torp range to almost nothing? Just curious.

With these wonderful changes to cruise missiles, I'm starting to wonder what's going to happen to torps in the future, if anything at all, since torps are kind of useless now that cruise missiles seem vastly superior.


No, 2011-2013 mostly. They're really common in certain parts of low sec. There were some times back in the day (2006-2009 maybe?), but that was way too rich for my blood back then.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#544 - 2013-05-14 17:52:41 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The new CNR is worse than the old CNR. The old CNR had more effective launchers and more raw DPS. Honestly, the ship you're looking at already exists. And it's not popular for a reason. Because the current CNR is better.

-Liang


So You're telling me that 100 more DPS but smaler firing speed (which is good for lvl4 - no wasted salvos), a lot smaller expl radius, more speed, agility, faster missiles, +1 med slot.

ALL OF THIS is worse? ... Just stop trolling or admit already and don't stick with this bull... because "honor"

If You look on ship only, without cruise missiles buff, then new looses only in raw dps, but expl radius compensate for that, and still new CNR will win because rest of things, but You must understand that CNR changes are stick to cruise missile changes, those two things aren't separate in this case.

We are still talking only about lvl4 missions



Not just lvl 4s, this new CNR (plus the cursie Buff) will be worlds away better in null PVE than other similar ships (especially with frigs in forsaken hubs) The Phoon and Floon will be good, but shields are always better than armor in anomalies and the regular raven won't be able to kill small things nearly as fast (and kiling small things is important on occasion when some wormhole hunter pops out and warps at you while you are scarmmed by an elite frig lol).

Hell the new CNR should be more survivable as under the right circumstances you could pop bombers before a bomb lands (i wish I'd had the new cnr rather than the old one i lost to that awoxxing lol).

There is probably a lot of truth to what Liang is saying about PVP, but I'm not worried in the least for any PVE so long as people learn how to use the new CNR properly rather than flying it like it's the pre-Odyssey ship version.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#545 - 2013-05-14 17:53:10 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, I'm not ignoring the cruise missile buff. I'm just assuming that it applies to all ships evenly. But hey, maybe the cruise missile buff only applies to the CNR and I wasn't told about it. As to Foxcats: yes, I agree that they exist. However, I haven't seen them personally. Might be something to do with living in different parts of space and having different experiences in Eve.

But, on the subject of CNRs in PVP: it won't be used because there's no reason to. It doesn't have superior DPS, it doesn't have superior anything. It's just objectively worse at all things than the competition.

-Liang


You are dead wrong. Navy Apoc doesn't have superior DPS either. Reason it gets used is range, which the cruise CNR will have Plenty of... Please tell me how many fleets of Megathron's have you seen around ever (excluding those snowflakes who brings it along to a Rokh fleet)? That's because extreme close range DPS in BS hull don't go hand in hand with fleet work...


All ships fitting cruise have more than sufficient range. There's nothing about the CNR that really makes it special on that front - certainly nothing that makes it more special than the Fleet Phoon or standard T1 Typhoon. Care to try again?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#546 - 2013-05-14 17:54:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The new CNR is worse than the old CNR. The old CNR had more effective launchers and more raw DPS. Honestly, the ship you're looking at already exists. And it's not popular for a reason. Because the current CNR is better.

-Liang


So You're telling me that 100 more DPS but smaler firing speed (which is good for lvl4 - no wasted salvos), a lot smaller expl radius, more speed, agility, faster missiles, +1 med slot.

ALL OF THIS is worse? ... Just stop trolling or admit already and don't stick with this bull... because "honor"

If You look on ship only, without cruise missiles buff, then new looses only in raw dps, but expl radius compensate for that, and still new CNR will win because rest of things, but You must understand that CNR changes are stick to cruise missile changes, those two things aren't separate in this case.

We are still talking only about lvl4 missions



Not just lvl 4s, this new CNR (plus the cursie Buff) will be worlds away better in null PVE than other similar ships (especially with frigs in forsaken hubs) The Phoon and Floon will be good, but shields are always better than armor in anomalies and the regular raven won't be able to kill small things nearly as fast (and kiling small things is important on occasion when some wormhole hunter pops out and warps at you while you are scarmmed by an elite frig lol).

Hell the new CNR should be more survivable as under the right circumstances you could pop bombers before a bomb lands (i wish I'd had the new cnr rather than the old one i lost to that awoxxing lol).

There is probably a lot of truth to what Liang is saying about PVP, but I'm not worried in the least for any PVE so long as people learn how to use the new CNR properly rather than flying it like it's the pre-Odyssey ship version.


If you are flying a CNR in null PVE, just fly a Golem. More tank, more damage application, tractors for building your ammo, less ammo consumption, etc. The new CNR already exists. We don't need to recreate the exact same ship - but worse.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#547 - 2013-05-14 17:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: mama guru
Warbirds was a neat vid and all but hardly representing of caldari in PVP.

+1 midslot and improved damage application vs smaller targets at the cost of a little dps might make the navy raven a viable fleet option when coupled with the overall imrpvements to cruise missiles.

Currently the raven, scorp navy issue and navy raven are all overshadowed by the rokh. This has nothing to do with utility highslots and rate of fire bonuses.


And on the topic of golems. The golem is way more expensive.

Edit: Golem price mistake.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#548 - 2013-05-14 18:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
mama guru wrote:
Warbirds was a neat vid and all but hardly representing of caldari in PVP.

+1 midslot and improved damage application vs smaller targets at the cost of a little dps might make the navy raven a viable fleet option when coupled with the overall imrpvements to cruise missiles.

Currently the raven, scorp navy issue and navy raven are all overshadowed by the rokh. This has nothing to do with utility highslots and rate of fire bonuses.

And on the topic of golems. The golem is three times the cost, your argument fails on that alone.


You are aware that the CNS gets a resist bonus, yet another mid slot, and cruise range is pretty sufficient already? For fleet action, the CNS seems much more likely to be used than the CNR. Kinda like how the Rokh's resist bonus is pretty snazzy in fleets.

-Liang

Ed: Also, on the subject of Golem cost: apparently people don't mind paying the cost for a Mach for better performance. Your arguments are really falling down flat here.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#549 - 2013-05-14 18:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The new CNR is worse than the old CNR. The old CNR had more effective launchers and more raw DPS. Honestly, the ship you're looking at already exists. And it's not popular for a reason. Because the current CNR is better.

-Liang


So You're telling me that 100 more DPS but smaler firing speed (which is good for lvl4 - no wasted salvos), a lot smaller expl radius, more speed, agility, faster missiles, +1 med slot.

ALL OF THIS is worse? ... Just stop trolling or admit already and don't stick with this bull... because "honor"

If You look on ship only, without cruise missiles buff, then new looses only in raw dps, but expl radius compensate for that, and still new CNR will win because rest of things, but You must understand that CNR changes are stick to cruise missile changes, those two things aren't separate in this case.

We are still talking only about lvl4 missions



Not just lvl 4s, this new CNR (plus the cursie Buff) will be worlds away better in null PVE than other similar ships (especially with frigs in forsaken hubs) The Phoon and Floon will be good, but shields are always better than armor in anomalies and the regular raven won't be able to kill small things nearly as fast (and kiling small things is important on occasion when some wormhole hunter pops out and warps at you while you are scarmmed by an elite frig lol).

Hell the new CNR should be more survivable as under the right circumstances you could pop bombers before a bomb lands (i wish I'd had the new cnr rather than the old one i lost to that awoxxing lol).

There is probably a lot of truth to what Liang is saying about PVP, but I'm not worried in the least for any PVE so long as people learn how to use the new CNR properly rather than flying it like it's the pre-Odyssey ship version.


If you are flying a CNR in null PVE, just fly a Golem. More tank, more damage application, tractors for building your ammo, less ammo consumption, etc. The new CNR already exists. We don't need to recreate the exact same ship - but worse.

-Liang


I use missile ships for support, i don't salvage (corp noobs do that to give them an income) and I tend to use FoFs so I don't have to pay attention to it (so i can fly my mach/nightmare/whatever). And the Golem takes wayyyy longer to skill for so i said screw that on my missile toon.

And the Golem gets jammed by Guristas is they just sneeze on it. a Jammed golem in null can die, this new CNR might have a chance is hostiles pop in (because I can FoF those elite frigs off and the extra mid means i can put that MJD on again).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#550 - 2013-05-14 18:02:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

I use missile ships for support, i don't salvage (corp noobs do that to give them an income) and I tend to use FoFs so I don't have to pay attention to it (so i can fly my mach/nightmare/whatever). And the Golem takes wayyyy longer to skill for so i said screw that on my missile toon. And the Golem gets jammed by Guristas is they just sneeze on it.


Marauders aren't exactly hard to train. Far and away the most onerous requirement is BS 5... so I guess if you aren't going to bother training your skills up there's not a lot to worry about. On the bright side, the CNR now doesn't require any training at all to get full DPS. Lol

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#551 - 2013-05-14 18:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Hey Grath

Although I hate PL and you and since you are in PL, but I have to applaud for doing a great job combating the many idiocy statements shown here in this thread. Keep up the good work!

For the rest , here are some videos you might want to watch:

E-UNI Combat Mechanics 101, part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz9NtV-AI1k

E-UNI Combat Mechanics 101, part 2 -> around 2:25 in this video talks about explosion velocity **just a heads up :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKG60p2jQjg

By the way, I am also a mission runner. Plz don't put all of us in the same boat. Thank you.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#552 - 2013-05-14 18:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: mama guru
Liang Nuren wrote:
mama guru wrote:
Warbirds was a neat vid and all but hardly representing of caldari in PVP.

+1 midslot and improved damage application vs smaller targets at the cost of a little dps might make the navy raven a viable fleet option when coupled with the overall imrpvements to cruise missiles.

Currently the raven, scorp navy issue and navy raven are all overshadowed by the rokh. This has nothing to do with utility highslots and rate of fire bonuses.

And on the topic of golems. The golem is three times the cost, your argument fails on that alone.


You are aware that the CNS gets a resist bonus, yet another mid slot, and cruise range is pretty sufficient already? For fleet action, the CNS seems much more likely to be used than the CNR. Kinda like how the Rokh's resist bonus is pretty snazzy in fleets.

-Liang

Ed: Also, on the subject of Golem cost: apparently people don't mind paying the cost for a Mach for better performance. Your arguments are really falling down flat here.



Problem with cruise is that at 50km you have a 10 second travel time after your target sees you shooting at him(red boxing). Thats more than enough time for logis to lock him up and rep the damage that'll land. Turrets and sentry drones have no such time window to work with.


Yes the CNS is superior compared to the the navy raven for pvp, especially with torps, but it still suffers from the same problems most missile boats have.

Damage Projection (Torps, Hams)

Damage Application (Cruise, Torps, Heavies post nerf). Especially prelevant with T2 Ammo.

Early Warning (Torp, Cruise).


In ideal conditions torps rock but the problem is that those conditions are extremely circumstantial and non existant in nullsec aswell as most of lowsec.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#553 - 2013-05-14 18:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
mama guru wrote:

Problem with cruise is that at 50km you have a 10 second travel time after your target sees you shooting at him(red boxing). Thats more than enough time for logis to lock him up and rep the damage that'll land. Turrets and sentry drones have no such time window to work with.


Yes the CNS is superior the the navy raven for pvp, especially with torps, but it still suffers from the same problems most missile boats have.

Damage Projection (Torps, Hams)

Damage Application (Cruise, Torps, Heavies post nerf). Especially prelevant with T2 Ammo.

Early Warning (Torp, Cruise).


In ideal conditions torps rock but the problem is that those conditions are extremely circumstantial and non existant in nullsec aswell as most of lowsec.


For what it's worth though: torps are much easier to set up in low sec and WH space than in null sec. In both of them you are looking at much smaller gangs and generally larger ships (BC+) - something that helps mitigate missile travel time and damage application problems.

But regarding missiles in particular: Yes, as I said - there are tremendous number of things going against the idea of cruise missile fleets. Travel time, firewalling, damage application, counter fitting, etc. Then given the natural weakness of the CNR relative to the Fleet Phoon, Phoon, Navy Scorp, and Rattlesnake.... I'm just not seeing this proposition of CNR fleets as actually credible.

-Liang

Ed: I should say, C2-C3 WH space. Locals tend to use BC/BS fleets and the big guys coming in from C5/C6 space universally roam in giant T3 blobs. And torps against T3s is just bad.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#554 - 2013-05-14 18:13:03 UTC
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:
Hey Grath

Although I hate PL and you and since you are in PL, but I have to applaud for doing a great job combating the many idiocy statements shown here in this thread. Keep up the good work!

For the rest , here are some videos you might want to watch:

E-UNI Combat Mechanics 101, part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz9NtV-AI1k

E-UNI Combat Mechanics 101, part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKG60p2jQjg


He was doing really well discussing the things he's good at. I really appreciated his discussion of Foxcats, optimal, and tracking. His statements regarding missiles have all been pretty much universally just wrong. That's ok though - missiles don't (and still won't) have much effect on fleet combat. And even then, him and Malcanis are some of my favorite ship toasters.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#555 - 2013-05-14 18:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Altimo
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I use missile ships for support, i don't salvage (corp noobs do that to give them an income) and I tend to use FoFs so I don't have to pay attention to it (so i can fly my mach/nightmare/whatever). And the Golem takes wayyyy longer to skill for so i said screw that on my missile toon. And the Golem gets jammed by Guristas is they just sneeze on it.


Marauders aren't exactly hard to train. Far and away the most onerous requirement is BS 5... so I guess if you aren't going to bother training your skills up there's not a lot to worry about. On the bright side, the CNR now doesn't require any training at all to get full DPS. Lol

-Liang


Don't forget AWU5 that is pretty intensive to train as well =p But I agree we don't need 2 golems, one being worse. Are you saying there was no need to change the CNR just leave it as is? I think just keeping the 7th mid slot is fine but leave the rest alone. I wouldn't be opposed to them doing that, and then increasing the CPU and powergrid to make it easier to fit.
marVLs
#556 - 2013-05-14 18:14:54 UTC
Liang Nuren <<<< I stick to You'r post about You saying that new CNR will be worse in ALL PVE not PVP.
On June 5th we will get better CNR (cruise buff included) for lvl4 missions, for incursions etc. that's true, You and everyone else can't deny.
Second thing ships in EVE are better for one and worse for other, no one is complaining that his Interdictor is not good at lvl4s as another dude BS... and even devs say about CNR in mission running boat terms.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#557 - 2013-05-14 18:15:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, I'm not ignoring the cruise missile buff. I'm just assuming that it applies to all ships evenly. But hey, maybe the cruise missile buff only applies to the CNR and I wasn't told about it. As to Foxcats: yes, I agree that they exist. However, I haven't seen them personally. Might be something to do with living in different parts of space and having different experiences in Eve.

But, on the subject of CNRs in PVP: it won't be used because there's no reason to. It doesn't have superior DPS, it doesn't have superior anything. It's just objectively worse at all things than the competition.

-Liang


You are dead wrong. Navy Apoc doesn't have superior DPS either. Reason it gets used is range, which the cruise CNR will have Plenty of... Please tell me how many fleets of Megathron's have you seen around ever (excluding those snowflakes who brings it along to a Rokh fleet)? That's because extreme close range DPS in BS hull don't go hand in hand with fleet work...


All ships fitting cruise have more than sufficient range. There's nothing about the CNR that really makes it special on that front - certainly nothing that makes it more special than the Fleet Phoon or standard T1 Typhoon. Care to try again?

-Liang


Ok so now it's not about the CNR being ****, it's actually that you perceive the SNI to be BETTER?

Also the Minmatar ships are armor tanked.... Big difference
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#558 - 2013-05-14 18:17:39 UTC
Altimo wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I use missile ships for support, i don't salvage (corp noobs do that to give them an income) and I tend to use FoFs so I don't have to pay attention to it (so i can fly my mach/nightmare/whatever). And the Golem takes wayyyy longer to skill for so i said screw that on my missile toon. And the Golem gets jammed by Guristas is they just sneeze on it.


Marauders aren't exactly hard to train. Far and away the most onerous requirement is BS 5... so I guess if you aren't going to bother training your skills up there's not a lot to worry about. On the bright side, the CNR now doesn't require any training at all to get full DPS. Lol

-Liang


Don't forget AWU5 that is pretty intensive to train as well =p But I agree we don't need 2 golems, one being worse. Are you saying there was no need to change the CNR just leave it as is? I think just keeping the 7th mid slot and keeping that is fine but leaving the rest alone. I wouldn't be opposed to them doing that, and then increasing the CPU and powergrid to make it easier to fit.


Yeah, I'm really aiming for keeping the 7 launchers and a ROF bonus. I won't be terribly opposed either of the other two bonuses - missile velocity or explo radius.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#559 - 2013-05-14 18:17:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I use missile ships for support, i don't salvage (corp noobs do that to give them an income) and I tend to use FoFs so I don't have to pay attention to it (so i can fly my mach/nightmare/whatever). And the Golem takes wayyyy longer to skill for so i said screw that on my missile toon. And the Golem gets jammed by Guristas is they just sneeze on it.


Marauders aren't exactly hard to train. Far and away the most onerous requirement is BS 5... so I guess if you aren't going to bother training your skills up there's not a lot to worry about. On the bright side, the CNR now doesn't require any training at all to get full DPS. Lol

-Liang



For a support ship, no I'm not training that toon up much more when the CNR already fits the bill and works better in the ways that I use it (I knew sending Rise flowers for mother's day would get him to make a ship just for me....).

But really, if the Golem was better in the scenarios where I use it, I'd use it, but it's not and until maruaders get looked at, it won't be. I can fly Golems on 3 other toons but it's simply not all that interesting to me.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#560 - 2013-05-14 18:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Oramara
Jenn aSide wrote:

I use missile ships for support, i don't salvage (corp noobs do that to give them an income) and I tend to use FoFs so I don't have to pay attention to it (so i can fly my mach/nightmare/whatever). And the Golem takes wayyyy longer to skill for so i said screw that on my missile toon.

And the Golem gets jammed by Guristas is they just sneeze on it. a Jammed golem in null can die, this new CNR might have a chance is hostiles pop in (because I can FoF those elite frigs off and the extra mid means i can put that MJD on again).

There are skills that increase your sensors like Gravimetric Sensor Compensation, also like you fit resistances against damage you can fit against ecm which i thought is normal against guristas at this point?