These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#521 - 2013-05-14 17:05:29 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Octoven wrote:

Can I haves your stuff?? Big smile

By the way...there is absolutely zero reason to even have a tractor beam on a CNR


Did you know that a tractor beam brings wrecks and cans closer to you? Not fitting a tractor beam in certain missions will mean a 20-30km trek to go manually pick up the can that is your mission objective. In L5 missions, it means that you are skipping out on sweet sweet tag loot. In pirate L4s, it means that you're leaving 50% of the value of the mission on the floor. It really goes on and on and on and on....

What a silly thing for you to say, really.

-Liang


Have you ever heard of a ship called the Noctis? It's perfect for looting and salvaging massive wreckage fields (ie. Carebearing) P


This is not a practical thing to do. Here's your options:
- Blitz in a BS, come back in a Noctis. Congratulations on being a complete ******* ******.
- Blitz in a BS, loot salvage in a Noctis on an alt. Better, but still worse than...
- Blitz in 2 BS, looting and salvaging as you go. (I've generally seen ~75% of the total value of the mission this way)

Marauders generally work better for this task, which amusingly gets back to the whole part about the Golem being just straight up better at this in every possible way.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#522 - 2013-05-14 17:07:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Octoven wrote:

Can I haves your stuff?? Big smile

By the way...there is absolutely zero reason to even have a tractor beam on a CNR


Did you know that a tractor beam brings wrecks and cans closer to you? Not fitting a tractor beam in certain missions will mean a 20-30km trek to go manually pick up the can that is your mission objective. In L5 missions, it means that you are skipping out on sweet sweet tag loot. In pirate L4s, it means that you're leaving 50% of the value of the mission on the floor. It really goes on and on and on and on....

What a silly thing for you to say, really.

-Liang


Have you ever heard of a ship called the Noctis? It's perfect for looting and salvaging massive wreckage fields (ie. Carebearing) P


This is not a practical thing to do. Here's your options:
- Blitz in a BS, come back in a Noctis. Congratulations on being a complete ******* ******.
- Blitz in a BS, loot salvage in a Noctis on an alt. Better, but still worse than...
- Blitz in 2 BS, looting and salvaging as you go. (I've generally seen ~75% of the total value of the mission this way)

Marauders generally work better for this task, which amusingly gets back to the whole part about the Golem being just straight up better at this in every possible way.

-Liang


Then why not get a Golem? Or is there something i'm missing here?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#523 - 2013-05-14 17:08:38 UTC
No, now you're starting to catch up. The new CNR is simply bad in all possible ways. It's bad at PVE, and it's bad at PVP.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#524 - 2013-05-14 17:13:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The new CNR is simply bad in all possible ways. It's bad at PVE, and it's bad at PVP.

-Liang



I just have to poke at this but seriously, how often is a CNR even used for PVP? I could be wrong, but I certainly don't hear of, or have seen it being widely used for PVP.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#525 - 2013-05-14 17:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: mama guru
Sounds like someone have not flown a tempest recently.

Altimo wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The new CNR is simply bad in all possible ways. It's bad at PVE, and it's bad at PVP.

-Liang



I just have to poke at this but seriously, how often is a CNR even used for PVP? I could be wrong, but I certainly don't hear of, or have seen it being widely used for PVP.


It is if you live in lowsec, but even then it's a gimmick at best.



Liang brings a fair point to the table, but i believe it's bullshit just like his local tanked basilisk.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#526 - 2013-05-14 17:15:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, now you're starting to catch up. The new CNR is simply bad in all possible ways. It's bad at PVE, and it's bad at PVP.

-Liang


My point is it is not a marauder. Start comparing it to other Navy ships and not something totally different.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#527 - 2013-05-14 17:18:07 UTC
Altimo wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The new CNR is simply bad in all possible ways. It's bad at PVE, and it's bad at PVP.

-Liang



I just have to poke at this but seriously, how often is a CNR even used for PVP? I could be wrong, but I certainly don't hear of, or have seen it being widely used for PVP.

Atleast it was the highest missile dps platform AND had a utility high, after Odyssey it's even worse so what do you think?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#528 - 2013-05-14 17:18:25 UTC
Altimo wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The new CNR is simply bad in all possible ways. It's bad at PVE, and it's bad at PVP.

-Liang



I just have to poke at this but seriously, how often is a CNR even used for PVP? I could be wrong, but I certainly don't hear of, or have seen it being widely used for PVP.


I've personally seen more CNRs in PVP than Nightmares and Bhaalgorns combined. It wasn't that uncommon before people hopped on the Tengu Craze.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#529 - 2013-05-14 17:21:13 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Octoven wrote:

Can I haves your stuff?? Big smile

By the way...there is absolutely zero reason to even have a tractor beam on a CNR


Did you know that a tractor beam brings wrecks and cans closer to you? Not fitting a tractor beam in certain missions will mean a 20-30km trek to go manually pick up the can that is your mission objective. In L5 missions, it means that you are skipping out on sweet sweet tag loot. In pirate L4s, it means that you're leaving 50% of the value of the mission on the floor. It really goes on and on and on and on....

What a silly thing for you to say, really.

-Liang


Have you ever heard of a ship called the Noctis? It's perfect for looting and salvaging massive wreckage fields (ie. Carebearing) P


boo... you dont want to make me be hassled and use an alt or team up with someone do you Twisted

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#530 - 2013-05-14 17:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Liang Nuren wrote:
Altimo wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The new CNR is simply bad in all possible ways. It's bad at PVE, and it's bad at PVP.

-Liang



I just have to poke at this but seriously, how often is a CNR even used for PVP? I could be wrong, but I certainly don't hear of, or have seen it being widely used for PVP.


I've personally seen more CNRs in PVP than Nightmares and Bhaalgorns combined. It wasn't that uncommon before people hopped on the Tengu Craze.

-Liang


great logic... faction vrs pirate faction...

how many rattlesnakes you see in pvp?

edit i think the vindi is the only pirate faction ship used common for pvp

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
marVLs
#531 - 2013-05-14 17:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: marVLs
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, now you're starting to catch up. The new CNR is simply bad in all possible ways. It's bad at PVE, and it's bad at PVP.

-Liang


Won't argue at PVP cause not interested in navy BS pvp... but You're telling some real bull... about all PVE, for lvl4 new CNR will be better than old (cruise missile buff is including) and it will be new king of lvl4 (mach won't be - nerf to TE and mach itself will move him from top, even without this CNR will be better)

And don't tell me that crap "bring on 5% rof bonus", cause then CNR would be OP


From all navy BS redesign CNR got the biggest buff in role that fit to him best from always - lvl4 missions


Edit: new datafiles for EFT with navy BS changes are out
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#532 - 2013-05-14 17:25:50 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, now you're starting to catch up. The new CNR is simply bad in all possible ways. It's bad at PVE, and it's bad at PVP.

-Liang


My point is it is not a marauder. Start comparing it to other Navy ships and not something totally different.


Ok given the history of the Golem vs CNR argument, we can trivially see that raw damage tends to actually outweigh damage application of existing damage. From this we can see that the Fleet Typhoon actually has 8.25 eff launchers and a bigger drone bay. Notably, the regular Typhoon has just as much missile damage, a bigger drone bay, a utility high, and a damage application bonus. And of course, this totally neglects the complete mockery that the Mach makes of it in both PVE and PVP.

Again, the new CNR is just bad at both PVE and PVP. Even compared to T1 and faction battleships.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#533 - 2013-05-14 17:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
MeBiatch wrote:

great logic... faction vrs pirate faction...

how many rattlesnakes you see in pvp?


I've seen more CNRs in PVP than Navy Apocs and Navy Geddons combined. I've seen more CNRs in PVP than Fleet Phoons. I've seen more CNRS in PVP than Hyperions. It's really not that uncommon.

-Liang

Ed: Rattlesnakes BTW - I've seen two. Mine and Hesperius.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#534 - 2013-05-14 17:29:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
marVLs wrote:

Won't argue at PVP cause not interested in navy BS pvp... but You're telling some real bull... about all PVE, for lvl4 new CNR will be better than old (cruise missile buff is including) and it will be new king of lvl4 (mach won't be - nerf to TE and mach itself will move him from top, even without this CNR will be better)

And don't tell me that crap "bring on 5% rof bonus", cause then CNR would be OP


From all navy BS redesign CNR got the biggest buff in role that fit to him best from always - lvl4 missions


Edit: new datafiles for EFT with navy BS changes are out


The new CNR is worse than the old CNR. The old CNR had more effective launchers and more raw DPS. Honestly, the ship you're looking at already exists. And it's not popular for a reason. Because the current CNR is better.

-Liang

Ed: I'd also like to take a moment to make fun of your assertion that the new CNR is better than the old one, yet if the new CNR had 7 launchers and a ROF bonus it'd be OP.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#535 - 2013-05-14 17:40:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
marVLs wrote:

Won't argue at PVP cause not interested in navy BS pvp... but You're telling some real bull... about all PVE, for lvl4 new CNR will be better than old (cruise missile buff is including) and it will be new king of lvl4 (mach won't be - nerf to TE and mach itself will move him from top, even without this CNR will be better)

And don't tell me that crap "bring on 5% rof bonus", cause then CNR would be OP


From all navy BS redesign CNR got the biggest buff in role that fit to him best from always - lvl4 missions


Edit: new datafiles for EFT with navy BS changes are out


The new CNR is worse than the old CNR. The old CNR had more effective launchers and more raw DPS. Honestly, the ship you're looking at already exists. And it's not popular for a reason. Because the current CNR is better.

-Liang

Ed: I'd also like to take a moment to make fun of your assertion that the new CNR is better than the old one, yet if the new CNR had 7 launchers and a ROF bonus it'd be OP.


You seem to be ignoring the Cruise missile BUFF... This whole process is called BALANCING... You buff something else and nerf another to achieve balance. They couldn't buff the CNR or leave it as is whith the incoming Cruise missile buff because that would be UN-ballanced...

Also, ever heard of the Foxcat? It's a doctrine based on the Navy Apoc... There's literally hundreds if not thousands of them in 0.0 used in PvP on a daily basis. I personally have never seen a CNR in action, however this is why stuff gets rebalanced, so that people may actually start to use them for their designed purpose.
marVLs
#536 - 2013-05-14 17:41:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

The new CNR is worse than the old CNR. The old CNR had more effective launchers and more raw DPS. Honestly, the ship you're looking at already exists. And it's not popular for a reason. Because the current CNR is better.

-Liang


So You're telling me that 100 more DPS but smaler firing speed (which is good for lvl4 - no wasted salvos), a lot smaller expl radius, more speed, agility, faster missiles, +1 med slot.

ALL OF THIS is worse? ... Just stop trolling or admit already and don't stick with this bull... because "honor"

If You look on ship only, without cruise missiles buff, then new looses only in raw dps, but expl radius compensate for that, and still new CNR will win because rest of things, but You must understand that CNR changes are stick to cruise missile changes, those two things aren't separate in this case.

We are still talking only about lvl4 missions
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#537 - 2013-05-14 17:43:23 UTC
No, I'm not ignoring the cruise missile buff. I'm just assuming that it applies to all ships evenly. But hey, maybe the cruise missile buff only applies to the CNR and I wasn't told about it. As to Foxcats: yes, I agree that they exist. However, I haven't seen them personally. Might be something to do with living in different parts of space and having different experiences in Eve.

But, on the subject of CNRs in PVP: it won't be used because there's no reason to. It doesn't have superior DPS, it doesn't have superior anything. It's just objectively worse at all things than the competition.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#538 - 2013-05-14 17:46:20 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The new CNR is worse than the old CNR. The old CNR had more effective launchers and more raw DPS. Honestly, the ship you're looking at already exists. And it's not popular for a reason. Because the current CNR is better.

-Liang


So You're telling me that 100 more DPS but smaler firing speed (which is good for lvl4 - no wasted salvos), a lot smaller expl radius, more speed, agility, faster missiles, +1 med slot.

ALL OF THIS is worse? ... Just stop trolling or admit already and don't stick with this bull... because "honor"

If You look on ship only, without cruise missiles buff, then new looses only in raw dps, but expl radius compensate for that, and still new CNR will win because rest of things, but You must understand that CNR changes are stick to cruise missile changes, those two things aren't separate in this case.

We are still talking only about lvl4 missions


I'm more than aware that the CNR change is tied to the cruise missile change. What you don't seem to be aware of is that all the competition gets this cruise missile change too. All of the old arguments relating to why more DPS was better than more damage application will still hold.

Specifically relating to PVE, the ship you're looking for already exists, and it's already better than the CNR, and it's going to continue to be better than the CNR, in every possible way.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#539 - 2013-05-14 17:47:11 UTC
Hae Sung wrote:
[Blow 300 calibration on something that will degrade the effectiveness of my BCUs which already provide a similar bonus.


Then it's time for some solid math again:

4 BCS w/o Rig:

(1-0.105)*(1-0.87*0.105)*(1-0.57*0.105)*(1-0.28*0.105) = 0.74

1/0.74 = 1,35

4 BCS w/ Rig:

(1-0.15)*(1-0.87*0.105)*(1-0.57*0.105)*(1-0.28*0.105)*(1-0.1*0.105) = 0.7

1/0.7 = 1.43

1.43/1.35 = 1.06

This means the T2 Rig increases your effective DPS by about 6%. This is huge once you hit the skillcap, it equals 3 levels of weapon specialization skills.

But I will work on a comparision between DPS-CNR and application-CNR, no worries.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#540 - 2013-05-14 17:47:32 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
But, on the subject of CNRs in PVP: it won't be used because there's no reason to. It doesn't have superior DPS, it doesn't have superior anything. It's just objectively worse at all things than the competition.

-Liang



That's why nobody is using it today, before the oddysey improvements.

The last time I saw a CNR in pvp was in 06-07 when BURN EDEN used them with warp core stabs and 4000ms nano fits.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.