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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2381 - 2013-05-13 15:09:13 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Drones are now more versatile (in their potential targets).


No, they aren't any more versatile than they've always been, they just have 2xOmni as given. It's quantitative improvement, iteration, doesn't allow any new options. Anyway this is mostly semantics, I agree with you that if sentries see even minor tweaks to their deployment/recall mechanics, Dominix has a future. And the drawbacks of sentries in this thread have been greatly exaggerated.

Jonas,

Ishtar needs the turret bonus precisely because of the low number of turrets. It's a superb ship as it is, it only needs a bit more CPU to accommodate DDAs which were introduced before Ishtar was designed. Slot layout is perfect, it has excellent dps for a HAC with an engagement range second to none in it's class.

A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets.

.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2382 - 2013-05-13 15:14:46 UTC
Roime wrote:
A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets.

I don't agree with this. I do love drone + hybrid damage bonused ships, but the Myrmidon show that it's not a necessity, and if the Dominix Navy Issue keep its hybrid damage bonus, it'll be fine for me : that would give more options in the end.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2383 - 2013-05-13 15:15:39 UTC
Roime wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Drones are now more versatile (in their potential targets).


No, they aren't any more versatile than they've always been, they just have 2xOmni as given. It's quantitative improvement, iteration, doesn't allow any new options. Anyway this is mostly semantics, I agree with you that if sentries see even minor tweaks to their deployment/recall mechanics, Dominix has a future. And the drawbacks of sentries in this thread have been greatly exaggerated.

Jonas,

Ishtar needs the turret bonus precisely because of the low number of turrets. It's a superb ship as it is, it only needs a bit more CPU to accommodate DDAs which were introduced before Ishtar was designed. Slot layout is perfect, it has excellent dps for a HAC with an engagement range second to none in it's class.

A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets.


fitting guns on ishtar kills its fittings hard....
but if you want guns and drones there are other options like vexor or deimos/thorax why do you need guns on an ishtar?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2384 - 2013-05-13 15:57:22 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Roime wrote:
A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets.

I don't agree with this. I do love drone + hybrid damage bonused ships, but the Myrmidon show that it's not a necessity, and if the Dominix Navy Issue keep its hybrid damage bonus, it'll be fine for me : that would give more options in the end.


Myrmidon is a good example- earlier version was better than current one with one less turret. It's down to heavy drones being so problematic, I find myself using mediums and lights way more often than heavies, and then the total dps is just less.

Yeah, Navy Domi should keep it's current bonuses.

Jonas,

Ishtar is completely different beast from the ships you list (doh, there's only Gila and Ishtar in that class) and I don't want guns on Ishtar, it has them and I want to keep using them :) It's a Domi in a T2 cruiser hull.

Blasters and drones are a perfect pair for numerous reasons- you can't overheat drones, blasters provide damage while your drones travel from another target or while you switch drones, you can shoot two things simultaneously, blasters are your last lifeline when all your drones are gone. And vice versa, drones work when blasters don't (range, jamming, neuting).

Fitting it is a *****, but nothing that modern cybernetics and mild faction pimp couldn't solve. My DED plexer uses neutrons, PVP fits ions (active tank) or electrons (1600mm fit).

Off topic, but doesn't really matter I guess. Unless someone really expects CCP input in this thread anymore.

.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2385 - 2013-05-13 16:11:31 UTC
Roime wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Roime wrote:
A huge part of "drone boat versatility" is due to the fact that they can do damage with both drones and turrets.

I don't agree with this. I do love drone + hybrid damage bonused ships, but the Myrmidon show that it's not a necessity, and if the Dominix Navy Issue keep its hybrid damage bonus, it'll be fine for me : that would give more options in the end.


Myrmidon is a good example- earlier version was better than current one with one less turret. It's down to heavy drones being so problematic, I find myself using mediums and lights way more often than heavies, and then the total dps is just less.

Yeah, Navy Domi should keep it's current bonuses.

Jonas,

Ishtar is completely different beast from the ships you list (doh, there's only Gila and Ishtar in that class) and I don't want guns on Ishtar, it has them and I want to keep using them :) It's a Domi in a T2 cruiser hull.

Blasters and drones are a perfect pair for numerous reasons- you can't overheat drones, blasters provide damage while your drones travel from another target or while you switch drones, you can shoot two things simultaneously, blasters are your last lifeline when all your drones are gone. And vice versa, drones work when blasters don't (range, jamming, neuting).

Fitting it is a *****, but nothing that modern cybernetics and mild faction pimp couldn't solve. My DED plexer uses neutrons, PVP fits ions (active tank) or electrons (1600mm fit).

Off topic, but doesn't really matter I guess. Unless someone really expects CCP input in this thread anymore.



I see where you're coming from and atm its a decent bonus with how it fits and the bonuses and the state of drones..
but i think going forward a more drone focused ship is the better option along with drone improvements which will follow soon going by what CCP have said.. after-all gallente should be the most drone specialized if you want brawler droneboats you can use the prophecy or gila and vexor/ myrmidon .. besides T2 should focus on less things than T1 so having focus on two weapon systems isn't T2 territory.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#2386 - 2013-05-13 16:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Dominix kind of needs a Drone Control bonus rolled in with the optimal bonus if you want it to shine with sentries.


I would still adjust the Armageddon down to 100 bandwidth, and change Heavy Drones to 20 M3/BW.


Then make them fold up to a tenth of their size in the drone bay (or fit 'drone ships' with specialized holds for drones capable of holding hundreds of the things with a delay for loading them from the hold to the drone bay) and cost slightly less than t1 laser crystals if the current agro mechanics of NPC's vs Drones are going to stay as they are. As it is, I lose several per mission now no matter how vigilant I am, and while it does not make it impossible to use a Drone Ship for missions, it does cut into profits and makes them as serious PITA.

Dominix has always been a great ship. It was great with the gun bonus, and will no doubt be great with the drone optimal bonus in a different way... but drones themselves have needed a lot of work for a long time, and it's bringing down a good chunk of the Gallente ship line to leave them as they are.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2387 - 2013-05-13 19:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
Warning: This post is cut into two pieces (Edit: Messed up tracking on heavy and sentry drone values)

My first response to you guys regarding the Dominix being more lethal to frigates is this: Um, friggin' neut range bonus? (don't interpret this as a discredit to the Domi's extra mid, I am actually fond of that, but I don't think that sole-redeeming-feature is enough, personally, and I REALLY don't see the extra mid making it more lethal to a frigate then being able to cap out an inty at disruptor range [28km disruptor range, where the Geddon can get nearly 40km neuting])

However, since this topic is obviously of interest to me I have decided to take to SiSi in the pursuit of truth and justice. Most of my relevant drone skills are all Level V, with the exception of the Racial Specialization skills, which are all at level 4. Gallente Battleship is at V, Amarr Battleship is, however, only at level 3. To compensate for this, I have allotted the Armageddon 1 Drone Damage Amplifier I, the on-paper base comparison is below (these fits are completely bare of all guns, missiles, neuts, damage, and tracking amplifiers for both ships, minus the Geddon's DDA to bring its DPS in-line. Both ships are outfitted with scram and tackle ONLY for testing):

Dominix:
5x Hobgoblin IIs: 146 dps @ 1.875km+2km w/3.27 tracking
5x Hammerhead IIs: 233 dps @ 1.875km+3km w/1.383 tracking
5x Ogre IIs: 467 dps @ 1.875km+4km w/0.54 tracking
5x Garde IIs: 450 dps @ 45km+12km w/0.054 tracking

Armageddon:
5x Hobgoblins: 147 dps @ 1.25km+2km w/2.18 tracking
5x Hammerheads: 235 dps @ 1.25km+3km w/.922 tracking
5x Ogres: 469 dps @ 1.25km+4km w/.360 tracking
5x Garde: 452 dps @ 30km+12km w/.036 tracking

As you can see, I found the damage difference (slightly biased in Geddon's favor) to be completely negligible for the testing purposes, and at this point will consider the ships (paper dps-wise) completely equal. Obviously the range is in the Domi's favor (I sure hope that 600 meters can make a difference, as Roime suggested) as is the tracking speed of the drones (this should make a clear difference). Now, on to the field testing. Let's find out if the Dominix can pull ahead of the Geddon with its new bonus:

The test is simple. I have an Incursus tanked specifically against Gallente Thermic Drones (this will keep the numbers lower than you'd really be seeing but it works for our purposes). Both drone ships will use Tech II Gallente Scout Drones. When the drone's orbits have stabilized, I will begin reading the numbers from the notification log, add them, and take an average of the amount of shots fired. Missed shots will be included in the averages, so missed shots may significantly lower a score. Wrecking shots will be included in the averages, and may significantly increase the scores. Because there is an equal chance for each drone to miss, and an equal chance for each drone to get a wrecking shot (amongst themselves, not via ship class) I have left the numbers in rather than remove them.

First, the Incursus will sit still, and the drones will orbit freely and ravage the ship's armor (I purposely let them go through the shield for consistency in the readings). Several readings will be done, the average taken, and then the Incursus will orbit the drone boat at 2,500m at full speed, simulating being scrammed (NOT WEBBED). Following this, the Incusus will orbit at 2,500m while being scrammed and webbed. Again, drones are allowed to eat through shield HP and stabilize their orbits before any numbers are taken. To prevent confusion, the damage numbers are equal to the AMOUNT of damage done DIRECTLY to the ship. So if one did damage ranked 10 and the other 6 on average, then the one did about 4 more damage on average per "shot" from the drones.

Results as follows:


  • Incursus: Stationary
  • Hobgoblin IIs / Orbit 750m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 19.26, with 96.66% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 20.96, with 100% accuracy


The Dominix managed a 1.70 increase in damage and a 3.37% accuracy increase. (This is low)


  • Incursus: Stationary
  • Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1050m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 10.13, with 40% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 15.56, with 60% accuracy


Here, the Dominix managed to do quite a bit better with a 5.43 damage increase and a 20% accuracy increase (the 5.5ish damage is a good number and 20% extra accuracy is good)


  • Incursus: Orbit - Scrammed
  • Hobgoblin IIs / Orbit 500m to 1,300m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 22.76 with 100% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 21.46 with 100% accuracy


The Dominix's applied DPS came in second place here, 1.3 behind the Armageddon, while tieing in accuracy (the 1.3 is fairly low and mostly negligible, they can be considered completely equal here)


  • Incursus: Orbit - Scrammed
  • Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,100m to 2,100m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 29.90 with 93.33% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 32.63 with 93.33% accuracy


Here, the Dominix managed a lead in damage with 2.73 over the Armageddon, at the same accuracy. This isn't phenomenal, but it can probably partially be attributed to the slightly increased optimal range of the drones allowing for higher damage hits at the 2,000m range.


  • Incursus: Orbit - Webbed
  • Hobgoblin IIs / Orbit 650m to 850m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 20.93 with 100% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 20.66 with 96.66% accuracy


Unfortunately, the Dominix didn't get 100% accuracy here which threw its damage BARELY under the Geddon. It may have managed to get into the 21 or 22 with a 100% accuracy.

Save the drones!
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2388 - 2013-05-13 19:13:42 UTC

  • Incursus: Orbit - Webbed
  • Hammerhead IIs / Orbit 1,000m to 1,300m
  • Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 19.96 with 63.33% accuracy
  • Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 25.43 with 83.33% accuracy


Here, again, the Dominix's bonus DOES manage to pull it ahead with a 5.47 increase in damage and a 20% accuracy increase. This value shows that the bonus DOES come moderately handy when using up-sized drones on smaller targets (Medium drones on Frigates, Heavies on Cruisers).

However, I still don't think it's enough to differentiate the two. The bonus is STILL primarily for Sentries, as far as I can tell. The bonus it provides is just not good enough, especially when you consider that the medium slot you are suggesting gives it frigate killing power in regards to extra tackle (assuming web) is less than useful when using up-size drones, as the faster moving target is actually easier for them to hit.
This particular bit of information may be of some surprise to those of you not familiar with Azual Skoll's Test on this same issue.

But perhaps you guys still think differently? Perhaps you still think that the new Dominix is more versatile, and a better drone platform than the Armageddon? I still can only see it as a marginal improvement (in general, the sentries are lavished by the new bonus, but they need fixing and if it is to be a drone boat it should be better with ALL drones not just one set).

If you think I did something wrong /etc. feel free to do your own testing and post your results. SiSi is here for us to test the changes now, after all.

Save the drones!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2389 - 2013-05-13 19:50:31 UTC
Nice testing, but did you not notice that Domi does about 30% more damage than Geddon when upsizing drones?

It's way more than marginal improvement, considering the damage bonus is equal.

Domi should counter an inty with MJD, and blap it from 100k :)




.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2390 - 2013-05-13 19:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
Roime wrote:
Nice testing, but did you not notice that Domi does about 30% more damage than Geddon when upsizing drones?

It's way more than marginal improvement, considering the damage bonus is equal.

This only matters if you're flying solo, because you can choose to not web that frigate and allow the mediums to do the damage. Because if you're not solo, your target is heavily webbed. And if it's heavily webbed, then light drones are going to do a lot more DPS. And suddenly the Geddon and Domi DPS becomes equal again. Also if you don't web the frigate it's probably just gonna try to get out of dodge when it realizes what's going on.

I am not satisfied with the new bonus yet. However, I'm also not done testing it yet.

Save the drones!
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2391 - 2013-05-13 23:53:47 UTC
I still think the optimal and tracking bonus on the Dominix is pathetic. Outside of gate camping, it serves no purpose.
Broxus Maximas
Perkone
Caldari State
#2392 - 2013-05-14 01:57:47 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Roime wrote:
More focused = less versatile. Note that this change does not move a portion of turret dps to drones, it simply removes turret dps.

Geddon assuming the role of neut drone ship is the other thing indirectly reducing versatility.

Drones are now more versatile (in their potential targets).

The loss of turret dps mean it is now less gank oriented : less specialized. You now have less incentive to use high slots for hybrid guns only : that is less specialization.

Gun performances are lowered indeed, which mean the Domi is less specialized in its gank role, hence have less potential in this area, but the loss of incentive to go this road mean it's more prone to not be this way, hence more prone to vary its fitting.

That's the bad end of creating versatility, by reducing it's specialization, but it received a specialisation in drones to compensate, which are a more versatile oriented weapon. Should sentries be fixed, and the Dominix will be amazing. Until then, it didn't lost a lot on the gun field (at BEST, 12,5% dps if the guns acounted for half of the previous dps ; as it was mostly not the case, it's often less than 10% dps loss), but its drones became more versatile. That is the good end of creating the versatility.

And the birth of the drone geddon is not a removal of Dominix versatility. Versatility is NOT being the best at everything but having the ability to do everything. The Armageddon is more specialized toward fleet neutralizing platform, because of the bonus, but also because of the one less midslot.

The Dominix will now be the best drone ship, and a jack of all trade for everything else : rather good for everything, best for nothing. The Armageddon, if better for neuting, have far less potential.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Dominix was the only one for the place of T1 drone ship. Any addition to drone something would seem like removing this thing to the Dominix. The Dominix have a little brother, and a lot of people are simply afraid that the little brother will take all of the affection. But IMO, the Armageddon is just new, and guns never have been the primary strength of the Dominix : its only advantage on the guns field was its cheap price which will go away.


You obviously don't play Gallente or are trolling if you think the current proposed domi is better than the Geddon. The Domi with these changes is not a specialized drone boat its now a specialized Sentry Boat. If they actually changed it so the current bonus gave a speed bonus or a bonus to drone "effects" then it would be a solid trade for damage loss. Currently the Hybrid loss was replaced with a garbage bonus that only works on Sentries and can easily be replicated by a omni-directional tracking module.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#2393 - 2013-05-14 05:41:30 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I still think the optimal and tracking bonus on the Dominix is pathetic. Outside of gate camping, it serves no purpose.


It's good for fleet pvp. Very good infact. Once sentry drones get to orbit their host so you don't have to sit still the Dominix will be the number 1 contender to the Apoc for applied damage.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2394 - 2013-05-14 07:13:22 UTC
mama guru wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
I still think the optimal and tracking bonus on the Dominix is pathetic. Outside of gate camping, it serves no purpose.


It's good for fleet pvp. Very good infact. Once sentry drones get to orbit their host so you don't have to sit still the Dominix will be the number 1 contender to the Apoc for applied damage.

Oh this argument again.

Counter proposal:

Give it a bonus that is useful NOW and then once sentries orbit the host, you can change it to the optimal and tracking bonus.
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2395 - 2013-05-14 09:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeen Seeker
Marlona Sky wrote:
mama guru wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
I still think the optimal and tracking bonus on the Dominix is pathetic. Outside of gate camping, it serves no purpose.


It's good for fleet pvp. Very good infact. Once sentry drones get to orbit their host so you don't have to sit still the Dominix will be the number 1 contender to the Apoc for applied damage.

Oh this argument again.

Counter proposal:

Give it a bonus that is useful NOW and then once sentries orbit the host, you can change it to the optimal and tracking bonus.



as stated by Marlona if this IS going to make the domi good (i dont think it is giveing it a niche of niche jobs) When the drones are fixed then DONT fix it till the drone are the Promis of it will be better is often the worst type of disapointment you can get

the world isnt going to end if the Domi isnt updated till the Drone fix is ready and in place at lest if anything thats a Better option launching a ship that dosnt work till later means its never going to be seen as Usefull or good and we have alredy had people testing this bounce (Extensivly to) that has show its lossing 25% of its Damge for sod all usefullnesss exsepted to one drone type Why? if you cant make the bounce usefull to all drones and not just onetype? and dont strip it of its bounce and give it a promis of Soon TM.

in my view the Domi bounces were ok as it was... if you are chaging it Improve it dont just slap some crap on it and Say Done.

Edited this in but Can CCP give us some bludy Feed back in here? we have 3 weeks till they say Yae or Nae to this Update and no Feed back makes me think the changes are Now in Stone and we are all Screwd. WTB CCP Post with update will pay.

- Seeker
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2396 - 2013-05-14 09:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Sorry, but I just couldn't resist...
Sentries orbiting their host? Why don't attach them to the hull and call resulting contraptions "guns"?
Nwm me, just trolling. I do see some difference.

On a more serious note, if Domi is to be an all-out drone boat, it needs additional bonus to combat and utility drones as well as to sentries.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2397 - 2013-05-14 09:44:01 UTC
No, they shouldn't orbit the host. Simplest fix is to increase scoop range from 2500m to 5000m or 7500m. This would allow aligning and (more practical than current) orbiting the sentries to reduce incoming damage, while still keeping the original spirit of sentries. You would need to scoop/redeploy periodically if you wish to stay aligned, but this extended range would at least allow fleet aligns.

Another solution is to give them a "return drive", which would allow them to MWD back to host from a longer range, obviously not doing any damage during the micro warp.

.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#2398 - 2013-05-14 10:01:52 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
I am not satisfied with the new bonus yet. However, I'm also not done testing it yet.
Curious that you didn't do the test with Ogres vs a Cruiser/BC cuz that would seem like a far more likely scenario than a Domi trying to pop an Incursus. Especially if you are in a gang.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2399 - 2013-05-14 10:31:37 UTC
Why does the Mega have so little CPU?

It's really hard to fit.

.
Jeen Seeker
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2400 - 2013-05-14 10:36:17 UTC
Roime wrote:
Why does the Mega have so little CPU?

It's really hard to fit.



That extra low fit a CPU on it -_-

/end troll