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Naglafars in C5s?
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Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-05-10 19:49:16 UTC
Rroff wrote:
I think Jack's point wasn't about the alphaing but that if you've got 5 odd dreads in your home wormhole your gonna wtfbbq most carriers pretty quickly anyway so in that regard its not really a game changer.

Aside from the initial engagement range your still stuck in siege for 5 minutes whether its 0km or 120km thats not gonna be a huge game changer either tho I can imagine theres going to be some lols on voice comms the first time someone alphas down a cap with arty nags.


I had a long post explaining the reasons why comparing raw numbers would be asinine, however I have decided to just say... please. Please everyone, keep your Moros. Don't buy a Nag.

Blink

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#22 - 2013-05-10 20:16:21 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:

I had a long post explaining the reasons why comparing raw numbers would be asinine, however I have decided to just say... please. Please everyone, keep your Moros. Don't buy a Nag.

Blink


Not 100% sure what your getting at there but if its what I think it'll only work a few times and against people who don't use good practises when deploying capitals.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-05-10 20:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Svodola Darkfury
Rroff wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:

I had a long post explaining the reasons why comparing raw numbers would be asinine, however I have decided to just say... please. Please everyone, keep your Moros. Don't buy a Nag.

Blink


Not 100% sure what your getting at there but if its what I think it'll only work a few times and against people who don't use good practises when deploying capitals.



Alpha implies "first strike" hence Alpha. Seeing as how your volley damage does not exceed the base health of most carriers when properly fit, you're really talking about a 3 or 4 volley unless you're deploying multiple dreads (60 seconds is a long time). So by all means, use it against some farming Russians. But be careful using it against anybody who has a clue.

So in regards to the EFT warrior comment; you're going off of a completely number-less theoretical landing of a Naglfar 120km off of a fleet without them noticing you come into system (let alone your wormhole spawning), and then you're going to enter siege, "alpha" a carrier that has 130,000 health (which afaik doesn't exist, the RAW health alone on my Archon would keep it alive for 4 vollies) presuming you have all 5 skills in every skill in the game that is relevant to the naglfar (which if you do kudos, you're ahead of the crowd!). Unless you plan on bringing 2 or 3 Naglfars into the system, thus reducing the available support fleet to keep you from simply killing an Archon and then getting killed.

So yes; Volley Naglfar with a support fleet would be kind of hot, but why would you use that instead of a Moros? I guess you could try to range their dreads while your support fleet is controlling the situation up close. But really your Bhaalgorn (or more likely, neut Legions) should be handling the numbers coming out of the PVE dreads no problem, thus a Moros doing twice the DPS really shines.

I think I'll take my theoretical number crunching over your "LOL ALPHA NAGLFAR IS SAME THING AS ARTY RAGNAROK!" any day.

[final edit]: THIS IS COMPLETELY WORKING WITHIN THE LIMITATIONS OF W-SPACE. Arty Naglfars in Null are going to be hilarious.


Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Gary Bell
Therapy.
The Initiative.
#24 - 2013-05-11 11:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Gary Bell
Your reading skills are very poor...

TBH.. Moros is good.. But after the changes the ability to warp in at 120 kms and wtf bbq other caps in your home hole will make Nag fun as hell.. SO meh it can kinda go both ways.. Most c5s have to many caps as is so your ability to do meh dps wont be a big deal.. but your ability to group with 5 friends and alpha triage off the field will be alot more useful in home pvp situations..

I underlined the parts you obviously cant read..

PS.. At that range EFT what will happen to a Bhallgorn with even one web and painter on it..

PS.. The point in Alpha is you don't have the time to refit or jump out or even rep yourself.. Which will bring a new dynamic to on Hole PVP
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-05-11 12:49:31 UTC
Why dont we all just get phoenixes for the best alpha while we're at it...

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#26 - 2013-05-11 13:27:49 UTC
Gary Bell wrote:
Your reading skills are very poor...

TBH.. Moros is good.. But after the changes the ability to warp in at 120 kms and wtf bbq other caps in your home hole will make Nag fun as hell.. SO meh it can kinda go both ways.. Most c5s have to many caps as is so your ability to do meh dps wont be a big deal.. but your ability to group with 5 friends and alpha triage off the field will be alot more useful in home pvp situations..

I underlined the parts you obviously cant read..

PS.. At that range EFT what will happen to a Bhallgorn with even one web and painter on it..

PS.. The point in Alpha is you don't have the time to refit or jump out or even rep yourself.. Which will bring a new dynamic to on Hole PVP


We've been looking into the nag aswell and it does look quite appealing with it's capless weapons and switchable damagetype. And the amount of mids/lows shout ARMORTANKIT as loud as SHIELDTANKIT, but only in my opinion. Can squeeze an armordreadtank on it, together with cap rechargers/sebos/TCs in the mids.

Also Explosive Damage in wormholes is absolute BOSS.
ARCHON79
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-05-13 11:49:30 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Have to be honest I have no experience of using XL artillery against sleepers but everything I've ever experienced is suggesting to me thats a (very) bad idea.


I have some experience with Naglfar, autocannons are quite ok for shooting down slipper BS ships.

As for rigs, I second Your opinion about avoiding CCC, personally I would use T2 damage rig and two T1 tank buffor rigs.
Praxximus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-05-13 19:02:01 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:
A thing most people forget is that tracking plays a pretty big role in these sites, which (to my knowledge) the moros does best. Also even paper dps the moros still does the most even after the buff (remember not to use anti matter though).

So the moros should still be the best dread for escalations. And on another note shield tanking sux for capital escalations (bad lokis and no archons)


lol...why the hell not??? I use AM on my dread in escalations and it kicks the ever living crap out of stuff...why would you not use anti-matter?

I'm in the process right now of training an alt to fly a Naglfar in my wormholes along with my main who flies a Moros. So I guess I'll find out soon enough how effective it is (or isn't) in escalations :)
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#29 - 2013-05-13 19:23:28 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:
A thing most people forget is that tracking plays a pretty big role in these sites, which (to my knowledge) the moros does best. Also even paper dps the moros still does the most even after the buff (remember not to use anti matter though).

So the moros should still be the best dread for escalations. And on another note shield tanking sux for capital escalations (bad lokis and no archons)


As per post above not quite sure where your coming from with the not to use AM - while lead can work out better once the guardians have got into orbit AM generally works pretty well/best unless your using a different technique to the main ways people run escalations.

Shield tanking works great in pulsars for escalations tho you do need to double up on webbing/TPing ships, moros in shield gank fit can burn down sleepers extremely quickly and chimeras can run massive tanks with stupid levels of cap regen.

ARCHON79 wrote:


I have some experience with Naglfar, autocannons are quite ok for shooting down slipper BS ships.

As for rigs, I second Your opinion about avoiding CCC, personally I would use T2 damage rig and two T1 tank buffor rigs.


AutoCannons are one thing (not that far behind XL blasters) Artillery another - I'd imagine that while Artillery is nice at popping sleeper BS when transversal is low they become completely useless once the BS get some transversal.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-05-13 19:50:53 UTC
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
*snip*
Svo.


In a nutshell, this is pretty good.

Bear in mind the choice of Nag/Moros is highly situational dependent, if you are able to.

Having the range and being less cap-needy the Nag is perfect for home defense. Add that ships wanting to come after you will be on approach, unless you derped and let a covops get a warpin behind you, but nobody is that dumb...right? Besides there's a really cool trick you can do to prevent that but I'm gonna keep it The Secret of Vince™ for now.

Jumping in is a matter of fit. Switch up to AC and you can get those pesky Bhaals off your back instead of wondering "where did all my cap go? (yes I have said that before)

Honestly I started this thread thinking the Moros would be better for attacking but now I'm not so sure.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
joebro1060
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-05-14 00:59:54 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:
A thing most people forget is that tracking plays a pretty big role in these sites, which (to my knowledge) the moros does best. Also even paper dps the moros still does the most even after the buff (remember not to use anti matter though).

So the moros should still be the best dread for escalations. And on another note shield tanking sux for capital escalations (bad lokis and no archons)



I dont use antimatter for the explicit fact that it's range sucks. With that being said, a moros using plutonium will do less paper dps than a naglfar using EMP. but, the nag has slightly less tracking than a moros. My moros' tracking is about 0.012 and my naglfar's tracking is about 0.011. The nag reaches all the way out to 79km whereas the moros can only hit 69 (with plutonium).
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-05-14 05:35:35 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
pro tip: naglfar is a shield ship


It may have the mids to be able to shield tank it... but I personally would probably armor tank it myself. Being able to swap mids to tracking scripts is far too important to waste IMO, and if you are doing it right you should be parked next to a carrier to be able to refit on the fly anyways. This is what I would run:

[Naglfar, C5]
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Siege Module II
6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon, EMP XL
6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon, EMP XL

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

And then keep in the cargo 1 of each active hardener, 2 EANM's, 1 DCU, 1 reactive armor hardener, 5 CPR, 6 cap rechargers, 3 tracking speed scripts and 3 targeting range scripts. The CCC's give you enough cap to be able to run your rep for 6 minutes, and if you are sitting next to a carrier and start getting shot at, you can drop the tracking enhancer and 1 or more gyro's for tank. Additionally, remember that in less than a month, tracking enhancers only give 10% optimal/20% falloff, compared to a tracking computer's 15/30% numbers.

To compare, this is the moros that I was running:
[Moros, C6 Moros]
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Siege Module II
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Uranium Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Uranium Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Uranium Charge XL

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

With uranium and antimatter in the cargohold, swapping between them depending upon targets.

The moros gets 11471dps with this fit at 46+40 when fully scripted for optimal, or 40+31 when full scripted for tracking. 13765dps at 27+31 or 31+40 with antimatter. Tracking speed is .008 with optimal scripts, .013 with tracking scripts.

To compare, the Nag gets 11345dps at 25+75 using any shortrange ammo w/ 3 optimal scripts, 20+47 with 3 tracking scripts. Tracking is .006 with optimal scripts, or .011 with tracking scripts. It can also swap to titanium sabot for a drop to 7500dps, and a tracking of .014 w/ 3 tracking scripts at 40+47.

Overall, the dps and tracking is a little bit lower compared to an antimatter moros. However, I usually ended up running with 1 tracking speed script and 2 range scripts on the moros, and having 1 web loki with 2 webs and a painter on a target was enough for me to hit that way. The nag could run 2 speed and 1 optimal script to get the same effect, but better damage application with its slightly lower damage. Either way, each will complete the site in about the same amount of time. The extra 1000dps and .001 tracking the moros has isn't going to save you a seige cycle.

-Arazel
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#33 - 2013-05-14 08:23:22 UTC
Praxximus wrote:
Joan Greywind wrote:
A thing most people forget is that tracking plays a pretty big role in these sites, which (to my knowledge) the moros does best. Also even paper dps the moros still does the most even after the buff (remember not to use anti matter though).

So the moros should still be the best dread for escalations. And on another note shield tanking sux for capital escalations (bad lokis and no archons)


lol...why the hell not??? I use AM on my dread in escalations and it kicks the ever living crap out of stuff...why would you not use anti-matter?

I'm in the process right now of training an alt to fly a Naglfar in my wormholes along with my main who flies a Moros. So I guess I'll find out soon enough how effective it is (or isn't) in escalations :)




Sleepers orbit at 35km, so using uranium + tracking speed scripts is much more efficient. Try it with uranium you will finish the sites faster. (If you have a warpin AM is better to use for the first few but then you have to switch).
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