Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Earlier in the day I told someone - I'm afraid I don't remember who - that I was pretty sure that the Torp CNR would outdamage the Torp Typhoon (at least as far as missiles went) in most situations. So here's the math on that. Each ship is modeled with max skills, Tech II launchers and (despite the fact that the TyFI will probably not do this very often given the armor tank) three BCS II.

Any Dreadnaught
Faction Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 1098 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 1115 DPS
TyFI: 1149 DPS

Basically the max damage scenario.

Target: Alphafleet Maelstrom, 547m sig radius, 118m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 1098 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 724 DPS

The max damage scenario still applies here for faction torps, however with rage torps the CNR deals full DPS, while the TyFI loses 26% of its damage. It's similar against armor tanking combat BS, which have a smaller sig but are slower. The Abaddon tanks full damage from either with faction missiles, full damage from a Rage torp CNR, but only 76% damage (872 DPS) from a Rage TyFI.

With a Tech II target painter, both ships do full damage in all scenarios.

Target: Tempest. 340m sig, 150m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 920 DPS
TyFI: 712 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 630 DPS
TyFI: 422 DPS

Raven's dealing very nearly full damage with the faction missiles and 56% of its max with rage. The Typhoon only gets 73% and a mere 37%, respectively.

With a Tech II target painter, both ships do full damage with faction missiles. The CNR deals 77% of its damage with rage torps, while the TyFI is up to 50%. Even in that case, though, you're still better off shooting the normal torps. Kinda goes to show how bad (or at least niche) Rage torps really are.

Target: Naga, 1x LSE II. 240m sig, 244m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 920 DPS
TyFI: 712 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 630 DPS
TyFI: 422 DPS

DPS on both ships drops way off here, to 43% for the CNR and 32.5% for the TyFI with faction missiles. Shooting rage, it's 25% and 16% respectively.

With a target painter, that's 59%, 44%, 35% and 23%, respectively.


Numbers drop from there as you'd expect. Of course, this is just with one painter at most. Start throwing in more support (and thus more painters and webs) and the TyFI pulls ahead, but by no more than 3%. That goes up when you factor in the drones, of course, though not by much; in the max damage scenario, a flight of Ogres for the Typhoon only puts it up by about 80 DPS (~7%) over the CNR with a flight of Hammerheads.

And then there's more reality. Both ships are difficult to fit as torpedo ships, and the Typhoon especially requires extensive compromises. Expect to make extensive use of Meta 4 and/or faction equipment to get it to fit. A buffer tanked Typhoon fields a smaller tank than a fully buffer tanked Raven, though to compensate it has the edge in sig radius. I comes down to the Typhoon uses neuts and its drone bay to fight off smaller ships, while the CNR is capable of taking the more direct route. Overall, I feel like they're very balanced ships.

If my calculations aren't complety wrong (which they, sadly, tand to be, one should be able to fit this CNR fitting:

[Raven Navy Issue, do it with style]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II

X-Large Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Generation Extron
Experimental 100MN Afterburner
Cap Recharger II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile

With 3 missile rigs and 51.83 CPU to spare. As usual, shiny stuff will greatly improve this ships fitting capabilities. T2 Bay Loading Accelerator + 2x Flare I will be pretty interesting to watch, as the CNR practically gets about the damage application of a Golem with this setup (slightly more against a Golem without Rigor/Flare, slightly less against a Golem with Rigor/Flare)

Sure, a Golem can salvage and everything, but you will need to salvage a long time to get a break even.

Basically ccp decided the Raven should have 3 bonuses.

Isn't this an argument for non-drone ships to get 1 less slot than drone ships though ?? A Navy Geddon has 375 drone bay, and isn't a drone ship, so while its doing most of its dps with turrets it can launch some repairers, webbers, jammers, salvagers or whatever. Same with certain other battleships, but a bit more limited due to smaller bay... most battleships still have enough for decent options though.

Whereas a droneboat can't use utility drones, because its busy doing dps with its drones. It has LESS flexibility, and also receives 1 less slot. How does this make any sense ?! If they do try to use ewar drones or what have you, they don't even perform better than a non-drone ship, because the drone bonus only applies to damage.

Just curious why the velocity bonus on the CNR is only for cruise missile's? I often use torps on mine.

So you abandoned the Amarr re-balancing thread despite the heavy criticism on the Apoc changes and made the same changes the the napoc.

I think we all understand the meaning of asking for feedback a little better now.

Not sure why people are saying it's beastly. It's the same crappy fitting (in PG) as the Abaddon but with 2 inferior bonusses. All the fitting tradeoffs and none of the upside of better dps and tank. Any beam fitting still requires a PG mod and cap mods/rigs up the nose until they do the laser rebalance (pretty much shoehorned into buffer tanking as well).

For those saying "what a noob, doesn't know tracking is godly", run the numbers if you want, it is inferior to 5% damage bonus in every scenario except a BC orbitting at max optimal (someone did the math over in the Amarr BS thread already) which is situational at best. Paired with a range bonus that pulse fittings won't really take advantage of and beam fittings not needing the tracking bonus at their ranges and now the Amarr have two stinkers of BS's that lose to an Abaddon in every normal situation.

CCP Rise said they gave it tracking to better go after ABC's, but why not just get an ABC to do that? The Oracle can fit 8 Tach's (unlike any Amarr BS or Navy BS, lulz) and can do the job better at less than half the price.

if you want us to shield fit the fleet phoon, give us 6 mids, other than that go **** yourself,

kthx

No, its called ignoring you because you have no idea what you're talking about, the changes to both the Apoc and the Napoc are amazing, and its literally dudes like the idiot a few posts above me who's pissed he can't fit a tractor beam and you who want a cap use bonus or some crap like that on the Apoc, or even worse, the CVA guy asking for falloff on lasers

Idiot? Learn the math! I lose more firepower and CCP obstruct one high Slot with this crap! It is not just because of the tractor beam. It is: I lose a highslot, firepower and have to use more ammunition. Thats all. Try to find someone else who will do the math with you.