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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Author
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#261 - 2013-05-14 02:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Earlier in the day I told someone - I'm afraid I don't remember who - that I was pretty sure that the Torp CNR would outdamage the Torp Typhoon (at least as far as missiles went) in most situations. So here's the math on that. Each ship is modeled with max skills, Tech II launchers and (despite the fact that the TyFI will probably not do this very often given the armor tank) three BCS II.

Any Dreadnaught
Faction Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 1098 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 1115 DPS
TyFI: 1149 DPS

Basically the max damage scenario.

Target: Alphafleet Maelstrom, 547m sig radius, 118m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 1098 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 724 DPS

The max damage scenario still applies here for faction torps, however with rage torps the CNR deals full DPS, while the TyFI loses 26% of its damage. It's similar against armor tanking combat BS, which have a smaller sig but are slower. The Abaddon tanks full damage from either with faction missiles, full damage from a Rage torp CNR, but only 76% damage (872 DPS) from a Rage TyFI.

With a Tech II target painter, both ships do full damage in all scenarios.

Target: Tempest. 340m sig, 150m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 920 DPS
TyFI: 712 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 630 DPS
TyFI: 422 DPS

Raven's dealing very nearly full damage with the faction missiles and 56% of its max with rage. The Typhoon only gets 73% and a mere 37%, respectively.

With a Tech II target painter, both ships do full damage with faction missiles. The CNR deals 77% of its damage with rage torps, while the TyFI is up to 50%. Even in that case, though, you're still better off shooting the normal torps. Kinda goes to show how bad (or at least niche) Rage torps really are.

Target: Naga, 1x LSE II. 240m sig, 244m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 920 DPS
TyFI: 712 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 630 DPS
TyFI: 422 DPS

DPS on both ships drops way off here, to 43% for the CNR and 32.5% for the TyFI with faction missiles. Shooting rage, it's 25% and 16% respectively.

With a target painter, that's 59%, 44%, 35% and 23%, respectively.


Numbers drop from there as you'd expect. Of course, this is just with one painter at most. Start throwing in more support (and thus more painters and webs) and the TyFI pulls ahead, but by no more than 3%. That goes up when you factor in the drones, of course, though not by much; in the max damage scenario, a flight of Ogres for the Typhoon only puts it up by about 80 DPS (~7%) over the CNR with a flight of Hammerheads.

And then there's more reality. Both ships are difficult to fit as torpedo ships, and the Typhoon especially requires extensive compromises. Expect to make extensive use of Meta 4 and/or faction equipment to get it to fit. A buffer tanked Typhoon fields a smaller tank than a fully buffer tanked Raven, though to compensate it has the edge in sig radius. I comes down to the Typhoon uses neuts and its drone bay to fight off smaller ships, while the CNR is capable of taking the more direct route. Overall, I feel like they're very balanced ships.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Grash Depran
Binary Capital Group
#262 - 2013-05-14 02:19:38 UTC
Tim Ryder wrote:
Grash Depran wrote:


I don't really understand this either.. They give a CPU increase, and an extra launcher, but not enough CPU for a T2 launcher.

FWIW, I'm at AWU IV, and an 'Arbalest' CL takes up ~45.6.. so maybe they want us to go meta..


AWU gives powergrid, not CPU.

And you also forget that extra midslot we're getting negative CPU to use.


Woops... then WU V.. :)

Another good point.. so we can't fit a launcher, so we have an empty launcher.. and a mid-slot that has to be less than 45 tf.. I'm feeling a little jaded now. :(
Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#263 - 2013-05-14 02:54:38 UTC
If my calculations aren't complety wrong (which they, sadly, tand to be, one should be able to fit this CNR fitting:

[Raven Navy Issue, do it with style]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II

X-Large Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Generation Extron
Experimental 100MN Afterburner
Cap Recharger II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile

With 3 missile rigs and 51.83 CPU to spare. As usual, shiny stuff will greatly improve this ships fitting capabilities. T2 Bay Loading Accelerator + 2x Flare I will be pretty interesting to watch, as the CNR practically gets about the damage application of a Golem with this setup (slightly more against a Golem without Rigor/Flare, slightly less against a Golem with Rigor/Flare)

Sure, a Golem can salvage and everything, but you will need to salvage a long time to get a break even.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#264 - 2013-05-14 02:57:12 UTC
Tim Ryder wrote:
Klingon Admiral wrote:
Haven't run any exact calculations yet, but it seems the CNR just brutally murdered the Golem.


How do you figure that? The CNR got nerfed, effectively, probably because it'd've been too good with the new cruise missiles.


I dont call 8 launchers a nerf >.>
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#265 - 2013-05-14 02:59:15 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Tim Ryder wrote:
Klingon Admiral wrote:
Haven't run any exact calculations yet, but it seems the CNR just brutally murdered the Golem.


How do you figure that? The CNR got nerfed, effectively, probably because it'd've been too good with the new cruise missiles.


I dont call 8 launchers a nerf >.>


Basically ccp decided the Raven should have 3 bonuses.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#266 - 2013-05-14 02:59:15 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Tim Ryder wrote:
Klingon Admiral wrote:
Haven't run any exact calculations yet, but it seems the CNR just brutally murdered the Golem.


How do you figure that? The CNR got nerfed, effectively, probably because it'd've been too good with the new cruise missiles.


I dont call 8 launchers a nerf >.>


It is a slight nerf in raw DPS, but damage application is always awesome.
Trifle Donier
Sham Rocks Incorporated
#267 - 2013-05-14 03:02:47 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Any particular reason why you don't want to make the Dominix have 20 fitting slots like every other Navy BS? Would be kinda nice to have 8 low slots since it's a split weapon platform AND supposed to be armor tanked...


drones.

apparently drone utility negates a fitting slot for some reason.


Because drones can imitate a target painter, web, jammer, dampener, reps, or dps, so ships that specialize in high drone payloads receive one less slot.


Isn't this an argument for non-drone ships to get 1 less slot than drone ships though ?? A Navy Geddon has 375 drone bay, and isn't a drone ship, so while its doing most of its dps with turrets it can launch some repairers, webbers, jammers, salvagers or whatever. Same with certain other battleships, but a bit more limited due to smaller bay... most battleships still have enough for decent options though.

Whereas a droneboat can't use utility drones, because its busy doing dps with its drones. It has LESS flexibility, and also receives 1 less slot. How does this make any sense ?! If they do try to use ewar drones or what have you, they don't even perform better than a non-drone ship, because the drone bonus only applies to damage.
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#268 - 2013-05-14 03:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Renoir
CCP Rise wrote:


The ‘standard’ upgrade package for Navy BS is an extra slot (along with appropriate fitting adjustment) as well as approximately 50% more hitpoints. Some of these rebalanced versions will follow that pattern very closely, while others will diverge more significantly to completely new bonuses and roles.
....
We are giving the CNR an 8th launcher to make up for the loss of the rate of fire bonus, and replacing rate of fire with a bonus to explosion radius. Along with the incoming buff to cruise missiles, this ship is going to be an animal.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Slot layout: 8H, 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 8 launchers(+1)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 10500(-750) / 8000(-1961) / 9500(-461)


WHY Do you want to nerf my CNR?

I fly my ship with ALL LEVEL 5 Skills and if I calculate with the Rate Of Fire Bonus, I would have 8,75 Launcher (+25% from 7 launcher = +1,75) now.
Even with Battle Ship-Skill Level 3 this would be still 8.05 Launchers! 8.05 Launchers which I would have NOW!

And now you come to me and say you will buff the CNR? No Sir, you effectively nerf it!

The end of your "adjustment" is, that I have to use more ammunition, have less damage and lose my Tractor Beam from an high Slot!
You want to rebuild my CNR into a ship for rookies? Your modification is better for some one with Battle Ship Skill Level 2. But if you have L3 or L5 (like me) you absolutely lose firepower and a high-Slot for a tractor beam. Additionaly you do not give MORE hitpoints to my ship, you want to take some hitpoints away!
Keep the Rate Of Firebonus. Keep the tractor beam. The Med-slot is nice but not necessary.

I came back after a break from EVE. Now I see that this was a mistake. I am dissapointed that you try to bring a nerf but want to sell it as an buff! I will cancel my subscription again. Sad

Edit:
Two Eve Subscriptions Cancelled! Bye!
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#269 - 2013-05-14 03:41:11 UTC
Just curious why the velocity bonus on the CNR is only for cruise missile's? I often use torps on mine.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#270 - 2013-05-14 03:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
wtf are you doing to the CNR.. Seriously.. Nerf Caldari missile boats even more, thats the way we like it..

not.

Oh and for those who didn't got it yet.. 8 launchers without ROF-Bonus is a NERF, especially cause the new explosion-velocity bonus is a piece of crap which does nothing (yeah, you gain 25 m/s of explosion velocity, that's not going to cut it for CM's) .

give it 7 Launchers, 5% Explosion velocity and 5% rof per level.. missile velocity is something noone wants anyway.

/printing a pic of rise's face to throw dart-arrows at.
Crash Lander
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#271 - 2013-05-14 03:49:21 UTC
So you abandoned the Amarr re-balancing thread despite the heavy criticism on the Apoc changes and made the same changes the the napoc.

I think we all understand the meaning of asking for feedback a little better now.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#272 - 2013-05-14 03:59:18 UTC
I cannot see the justification for the dominix having one less slot than the other navy bs's.

The navy geddon has almost as large of a drone bay, and it gets two bonuses and 20 slots.

The dominix gets 19 slots because..?

Other ships have dual damage bonuses and still get 20 slots.

Drones can be blown up, can't really apply dps to something that isn't in scram'/web range, yet they get a slot removed when they have a damage bonus?
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#273 - 2013-05-14 04:07:47 UTC
Crash Lander wrote:
So you abandoned the Amarr re-balancing thread despite the heavy criticism on the Apoc changes and made the same changes the the napoc.

I think we all understand the meaning of asking for feedback a little better now.


Not sure why people are saying it's beastly. It's the same crappy fitting (in PG) as the Abaddon but with 2 inferior bonusses. All the fitting tradeoffs and none of the upside of better dps and tank. Any beam fitting still requires a PG mod and cap mods/rigs up the nose until they do the laser rebalance (pretty much shoehorned into buffer tanking as well).

For those saying "what a noob, doesn't know tracking is godly", run the numbers if you want, it is inferior to 5% damage bonus in every scenario except a BC orbitting at max optimal (someone did the math over in the Amarr BS thread already) which is situational at best. Paired with a range bonus that pulse fittings won't really take advantage of and beam fittings not needing the tracking bonus at their ranges and now the Amarr have two stinkers of BS's that lose to an Abaddon in every normal situation.

CCP Rise said they gave it tracking to better go after ABC's, but why not just get an ABC to do that? The Oracle can fit 8 Tach's (unlike any Amarr BS or Navy BS, lulz) and can do the job better at less than half the price.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#274 - 2013-05-14 04:07:54 UTC
Turelus wrote:
CNR is king of PVE again? Big smile


CNR is going to edge into PvP too, I think. Eight launchers, the explosion radius bonus that the normal Raven needs, solid looking tank...

I think this thing is going to end up being what I THOUGHT the T1 Raven was going to be. I don't even care that it doesn't have a damage bonus; that explosion velocity bonus, along with range, looks like... Yes, with buffed cruise missiles this thing is going to be wrecking a lot of people's ****.
DR BiCarbonate
Doomriders.
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#275 - 2013-05-14 04:24:44 UTC
if you want us to shield fit the fleet phoon, give us 6 mids, other than that go **** yourself,

kthx
Nessa Aldeen
First Among Equals
#276 - 2013-05-14 04:33:46 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
The idea with the Tempest is that it fits really well into a lot of armor based compositions, acting more or less like an armor Maelstrom. It still has higher alpha than the Typhoon, with a lot more hp and similar utility. It goes a lot faster than the other combat battleships and has much smaller sig, so it definitely isn't eclipsed completely.

I can understand why some of you might want something with a bit more pop and I promise to talk with Fozzie and the rest of the department to make sure we're happy with this form before Odyssey goes out.



I sure hope so.. you say it's logical progression and I can see most of the changes as making them different but the SNI and Tempest with it's unbonused weapon hardpoints does not make sense at all and will definitely screw them for another decade.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#277 - 2013-05-14 04:41:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Crash Lander wrote:
So you abandoned the Amarr re-balancing thread despite the heavy criticism on the Apoc changes and made the same changes the the napoc.

I think we all understand the meaning of asking for feedback a little better now.


No, its called ignoring you because you have no idea what you're talking about, the changes to both the Apoc and the Napoc are amazing, and its literally dudes like the idiot a few posts above me who's pissed he can't fit a tractor beam and you who want a cap use bonus or some crap like that on the Apoc, or even worse, the CVA guy asking for falloff on lasers

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#278 - 2013-05-14 04:45:11 UTC
I just wanted to note that there is a new kind of computer virus on the loose that is transferable to humans by means of internet use. It makes people flip out and go crazy over peculiar little changes in the functionality of known systems. Victims express bouts of rage through posts and exhibit zombie like patterns in a sleepless malaise of constant posting. Its not considered highly contagious yet. The CDC has been notified and are working on a vaccine. There is no need for alarm. If you suspect some one of having fallen victim to this new and as yet unnamed virus please contact your local forum police with the details. Thank you for your consideration. Further details to be posted as they become available.

Again... There is no cause for alarm.
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#279 - 2013-05-14 04:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Renoir
Grath Telkin wrote:


.. and its literally dudes like the idiot a few posts above me who's pissed he can't fit a tractor beam ..



Idiot? Learn the math! I lose more firepower and CCP obstruct one high Slot with this crap! It is not just because of the tractor beam. It is: I lose a highslot, firepower and have to use more ammunition. Thats all. Try to find someone else who will do the math with you. Blink
Nessa Aldeen
First Among Equals
#280 - 2013-05-14 04:47:05 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Earlier in the day I told someone - I'm afraid I don't remember who - that I was pretty sure that the Torp CNR would outdamage the Torp Typhoon (at least as far as missiles went) in most situations. So here's the math on that. Each ship is modeled with max skills, Tech II launchers and (despite the fact that the TyFI will probably not do this very often given the armor tank) three BCS II.

Any Dreadnaught
Faction Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 1098 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 1115 DPS
TyFI: 1149 DPS

Basically the max damage scenario.

Target: Alphafleet Maelstrom, 547m sig radius, 118m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 1098 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 948 DPS
TyFI: 724 DPS

The max damage scenario still applies here for faction torps, however with rage torps the CNR deals full DPS, while the TyFI loses 26% of its damage. It's similar against armor tanking combat BS, which have a smaller sig but are slower. The Abaddon tanks full damage from either with faction missiles, full damage from a Rage torp CNR, but only 76% damage (872 DPS) from a Rage TyFI.

With a Tech II target painter, both ships do full damage in all scenarios.

Target: Tempest. 340m sig, 150m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 920 DPS
TyFI: 712 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 630 DPS
TyFI: 422 DPS

Raven's dealing very nearly full damage with the faction missiles and 56% of its max with rage. The Typhoon only gets 73% and a mere 37%, respectively.

With a Tech II target painter, both ships do full damage with faction missiles. The CNR deals 77% of its damage with rage torps, while the TyFI is up to 50%. Even in that case, though, you're still better off shooting the normal torps. Kinda goes to show how bad (or at least niche) Rage torps really are.

Target: Naga, 1x LSE II. 240m sig, 244m/s
Faction Torps
CNR: 920 DPS
TyFI: 712 DPS
Rage Torps
CNR: 630 DPS
TyFI: 422 DPS

DPS on both ships drops way off here, to 43% for the CNR and 32.5% for the TyFI with faction missiles. Shooting rage, it's 25% and 16% respectively.

With a target painter, that's 59%, 44%, 35% and 23%, respectively.


Numbers drop from there as you'd expect. Of course, this is just with one painter at most. Start throwing in more support (and thus more painters and webs) and the TyFI pulls ahead, but by no more than 3%. That goes up when you factor in the drones, of course, though not by much; in the max damage scenario, a flight of Ogres for the Typhoon only puts it up by about 80 DPS (~7%) over the CNR with a flight of Hammerheads.

And then there's more reality. Both ships are difficult to fit as torpedo ships, and the Typhoon especially requires extensive compromises. Expect to make extensive use of Meta 4 and/or faction equipment to get it to fit. A buffer tanked Typhoon fields a smaller tank than a fully buffer tanked Raven, though to compensate it has the edge in sig radius. I comes down to the Typhoon uses neuts and its drone bay to fight off smaller ships, while the CNR is capable of taking the more direct route. Overall, I feel like they're very balanced ships.


Read Mynnna's explanation, goon he maybe.

For those threatening to quite over 'CNR-gate', you must read this and understand (or is it too difficult to digest?). We're talking about damage application here, raw dps i.e. EFT-warrioring means nothing. In reality, the CNR with 8 turrets and explo-bonus is making the ship regain it's King of the PvE status. And if you say the CNR is getting nerfed, e.g. learn math, rage, rage, you should yourselves understand how damage application works. Also, if you're quitting over this, can I haz your stuff?