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Put an end to the exploitation and scamming against new players... Grow your customer base

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-05-10 05:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
dark heartt wrote:
Valerian Dardanides wrote:

I have already written you a petition with the name of the offender and the details of what happened. I want my isk back and please implement some system to prevent more of cases like this, whether an addition to the tutorial or moderators in local or some way for a player based flagging system against scammers, especially those targeting new players.


I just read the full OP's post (I had skimmed over it before), and this bold part worries me. I do not think that you will get very far in Eve with that entitled attitude. And yes it is entitlement. You seem to think that you are a special butterfly, and that despite the fact that many many players have been caught out like this, you should be the only one to get this reimbursed. You are bad, and I feel bad for posting in agreement with you before...


Really.

He petitioned and whined to CCP.



OP close it...this isnwhat CCP will say:

"Logs show nothing, working as intended. Scamming is allowed andnits your OWN responsibility to not fall for them. l"



Edit:

Looks like the OP finally got smart and stopped whining.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#82 - 2013-05-10 16:27:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Radius Prime
Would you sign something in real life without reading it fully? EVE is intended to mimic RL in a fictive universe, it's about the only game that doesn't pamper its players from birth to death. Leave it be that way... already too many securities have sneaked in on behalf of nitwits that really don't belong in here. Too many games have been dumbed down soo much through the years that they are only played by 10 year olds as a result... You do not have the experience to make complaints and even less to warrant any change.
In RL we call people like you blue, because they are just out of school, think they know everything and start their first working day telling experienced employees how it should be done. Things don't work that way son, management wont make changes on your behalf just because you had a booboo and cried about it...
Grow out of your diapers and wake up as an adult in the real world.

You learned 2 valuable lessons in a fictive world that will actually help you in real life, now learn to live with it.

I can tell you a few real life mistakes I made when I was blue at my RL job but I wont bore you with them. Suffices to say that they hadn't happened if I had played EVE at the time (didn't exist) and had a healthy distrust for my co-workers.

Edit: In the end you learned a lot for about 10 dollars worth of isk, be grateful, isk is plentiful, it might seem a lot to you now but it will be pocket change in the future. If you keep playing you'll laugh when you think back about how gullible you were when you first started.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Lux0r
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-05-10 20:28:15 UTC
When you trade a ship that has been assembled (which it was since the scammer had to rename it). That little Trading Ship Warning that comes up...

'You are receiving a ship through this trade session. Keep in mind that even though you may have been told otherwise, this ship does not necessarily contain any modules or rigs.

If you want to be safe you should accept the ship through an Item Exchange contract instead.

Are you sure you want to continue?'

I'm assuming you just clicked OK without reading any of that. Even though it doesn't specifically state your problem it raises a clear red flag that this could be a scam and the proper way to conduct this sale is through an Item Exchange contract.

So instead of CCP making any sort of radical change you propose, how about they just add something to the effect of 'be sure to check the info on the ship to make sure it is what you're purchasing'. Then again people won't read that either and continue to come to the forums and produce such spectacular results.
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#84 - 2013-05-10 21:37:30 UTC
much as in the real world...if a deal looks too good to be true...it ain't. in eve it helps to never trust or take contracts from people you don't know...and if you do know them be very skeptical anyway.

but if you are going to take contracts...read everything.

everything.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-05-10 22:13:25 UTC
Okay...to make the OP look even more silly:

http://community.eveonline.com/support/knowledge-base/article.aspx?articleId=34

Pay close attention now...I will quote something that comes from an OFFICIAL CCP site:

Quote:
Always use "Show Info".
When you have items in a trade window, always right-click and choose "Show info" on them to make sure it is the item you were expecting. If it is a blueprint, check if it has the number of production runs remaining and the correct research levels. Since ships can be renamed, use "Show info" to make sure it is the ship type you were expecting, and make sure you give at least a passing glance to its attributes and description.


So...when did CCP not warn you about the Trade Window scam???

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Mattalious
Doomheim
#86 - 2013-05-11 17:41:06 UTC
My advice is two fold:

If it looks too good to be true, it normally is.

Check the fine print.


Actually checking the fine print is probably the best way to avoid scams full stop. Don't accept a contract until you've read through it, because that guy advertising to buy 4 plex for 3 billion, normally has it in the contract for 3 million. Likewise if you see as hauling job where the insurance is way, way above the value of the goods needing to be hauled then use your common sense, and realise someone is asking you to pay them once they decide to gank you on route.
Vaaln
Kite Co. Space Trucking
#87 - 2013-05-12 02:03:38 UTC
Valerian Dardanides wrote:
A suggestion to CCP, not to the many dimwits on this forum with no notion of consumer psychology, customer service, or financial growth: There is a solution that would protect new players without abolishing scams altogether.

Ban trade scam schemes in high-sec so normal players who want to play like decent human beings can do so and new players can learn in a safe environment.This makes sense from a roleplaying perspective because empire space shouldn't be like the Wild West. If concord and empire police summarily blow you up for looting an "owned" wreck in space... Then surely they wouldn't be soft handed with scammers hustling millions. To balance that, increase the sales tax in empire space to reflect the costs of implementing increased security.

For those who want to play as jerks, or who want to experience the full I-like-to-be-screwed experience... There is null sec. Zero tax, no rules.


Think for a few moments on this - Did government regulation prevent millions of dollars from being scammed from stockholders by Enron or MCI? Did the SEC prevent people from being scammed when the dot com bubble burst? Even in our society that is governed by regulation from a myriad of organizations, people are scammed every single day by corporations, individuals, and governments.

The beautiful aspect of EVE is it's near perfect freedom. You have the freedom to succeed and fail, the freedom to act legitimately or to try and fleece the universe. I don't want regulation in this game, and I would venture to say that the vast majority of players don't. There are already warnings to new players about scams. Whether they choose to heed these warnings is up to them - and it is probably better if they learn the hard way. To your financial argument, it might hold more weight if CCP wasn't gaining subscribers in the long run.

If you are looking to a company to be the regulator of all activity in the game world, so that you don't have to face hard decisions or bad results, this is not the game for you.
Steve WingYip
Doomheim
#88 - 2013-05-12 06:05:08 UTC
Valerian Dardanides wrote:
Dear CCP

You must put an end to the rampant scamming of new players by old players that is going on in Eve if you really intend to attract new players and continue growing your customer base. There is no tutorial warning new players of the various scams.The local channel has effectively become SCAM Channel especially in trade hubs in high sec were new players usually reside. There is no moderator to warn new players of the scams going on, and nothing is done against the offenders.

I understand that scamming is part of Eve but to allow the exploitation of new players makes you lose new customers... I see in the forum that you do not allow the baiting of new players in certain systems. Well the baiting and subsequent loss of a rookie ship is trivial compared to the damage being done by Scammers in local channel and Scam email offers.

For example how am I supposed to know as a two week old player that unlike in the market where a navy issue Augoror is actually a navy issue Augoror, in direct system trade ship items can be renamed by the player, so that you think you are buying a navy ship and it says so in the trade window... Except when you accept the trade, you find out that the ship is actually a normal Ship not a navy issue, it has just been renamed by the seller to navy issue to deceive the buyer... And just like that my hard earned 320 million isk, poof, Houdini style!

How did this happen? Simple, no tutorial pointed it out. Before I made the trade I even asked in the rookie channel if I can be scammed in direct trade but no one said I should look out for this. And so now I am turning to you the developers of Eve... I am asking for this to be rectified.

I have already written you a petition with the name of the offender and the details of what happened. I want my isk back and please implement some system to prevent more of cases like this, whether an addition to the tutorial or moderators in local or some way for a player based flagging system against scammers, especially those targeting new players.

Believe me, the silent condoning of the exploitation of new players will make you lose players, who just like me will quit Eve forever if justice isn't done. And when new players who planned to to be your paying customers for years to come, get turned away because of unscrupulous scammers, it's is no longer a selling point for you, it's an Achilles heel. The whole world of eve - as well as the profit margin of your company - will be worse off.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and I have high hopes that CCP will make a positive and proactive change in this regard

Best Regrads

Valerian Dardanides

Note: any smarty-pants player who would invoke caveat emptor and tell me I should have seen the scam myself, I answer that I usually do... But Eve is a huge game with so many facets and quite a complicated UI... You can not expect a new player to know all the nuisances of the system even though I completed all the tutorial missions and read hundreds of pages of info about it. And considering the vast majority of scammers are targeting new players, one can not guard against them all absent any advice from tutorials or moderators or repercussions against the offending scammer.


1. Adapt or Die. This cannot be stressed enough. Learn it. Live it. Love it.

2. Do not under any circumstance use what you cannot afford to lose. If you do it anyways, you are taking a big risk and CCP will just point and laugh at you with the rest of the community. Not every game you play needs a proto suit.

3. If it's too good to be true, it's probably a scam. Scams have been a common occurrence since Eve Online began and there is no doubt Dust can see this happening already. If you fall for a scam, it's not CCP's fault nor that of the community. You were just too stupid to do your research before falling for it. Again, you will be laughed at. Oh, and scams are allowed in the game.

4. Do not underestimate the organizational capacity of the inhabitants of New Eden (in both Eve and Dust). You will be surprised and amazed at what this community can do already. Yeah, we love New Eden that much. We even have the capacity to burn our own economy if we want. The last time anyone did that, CCP just stood by and ate popcorn while the carebears cried for help. Cry me a river, Justin Timberlake. Cry me a river.

5. Do not trust anyone but yourself. It's not a matter of if you'll get back stabbed. It's only a matter of when. When you do get back stabbed, pray that you are ready by then.

6. Skill Points mean nothing if the user doesn't know what he's doing.

Learn your lesson and move on, this game has existed for over 10 years this way and the games good players want it to stay this way. If you don't like getting scammed, you better move on to a different game. It is MUCH better to get scammed early so you learn that the game is like this, rather than learning it later down the line.

If you read the rules correctly and do research about this game, you would know scamming is common and encouraged as a way of living in this game.

I personally don't like it but it is unique in the sense that you can do it here. If you don't like it, go and play WoW or something, you won't be missed. Otherwise, please learn from mistakes like everyone else and enjoy this amazing game.
Chal0ner
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#89 - 2013-05-12 06:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Chal0ner
Valerian Dardanides wrote:
A suggestion to CCP, not to the many dimwits on this forum with no notion of consumer psychology, customer service, or financial growth: There is a solution that would protect new players without abolishing scams altogether.

Ban trade scam schemes in high-sec so normal players who want to play like decent human beings can do so and new players can learn in a safe environment.This makes sense from a roleplaying perspective because empire space shouldn't be like the Wild West. If concord and empire police summarily blow you up for looting an "owned" wreck in space... Then surely they wouldn't be soft handed with scammers hustling millions. To balance that, increase the sales tax in empire space to reflect the costs of implementing increased security.

For those who want to play as jerks, or who want to experience the full I-like-to-be-screwed experience... There is null sec. Zero tax, no rules.


Thank you for calling me a jerk. Ive been in null for the last 3years.
You obviously dont know of what you speak so please stop and listen to those who do.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#90 - 2013-05-13 09:12:17 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Valerian Dardanides wrote:
A suggestion to CCP, not to the many dimwits on this forum with no notion of consumer psychology, customer service, or financial growth: There is a solution that would protect new players without abolishing scams altogether.

Ban trade scam schemes in high-sec so normal players who want to play like decent human beings can do so and new players can learn in a safe environment.This makes sense from a roleplaying perspective because empire space shouldn't be like the Wild West. If concord and empire police summarily blow you up for looting an "owned" wreck in space... Then surely they wouldn't be soft handed with scammers hustling millions. To balance that, increase the sales tax in empire space to reflect the costs of implementing increased security.

For those who want to play as jerks, or who want to experience the full I-like-to-be-screwed experience... There is null sec. Zero tax, no rules.


I can't help but find people like you disgusting. You clearly don't have a clue about sandbox mmo-rpg games, and instead of learning, you cry.


What I find particularly disgusting is that OP applies IRL morality to the piratical and hardline business elements of Eve. His statement implies people like me are not even 'decent human beings'. Thanks OP. Who's the real jerk here? The guy playing the MMO villain as CCP intended or the guy insulting everyone that does? There's already a solution to 'protect new players': older players and their corps. You have no idea how enjoyable it is to share your knowledge with newbies, and see some fresh ideas being injected into your tactics, while they turn from clueless newbs to dangerous killing machines.
SUPER J0SH
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2013-05-13 11:01:42 UTC
Untanas Volmyr wrote:
Why not have a seller and buyer rating option. Make it a hi-sec only feature. That won't solve the problem. Yet it may help somewhat.



Why not? Because people would use alts to skew their own or others numbers is why not.
Dallas Jaxon
Frankenstuff
#92 - 2013-05-13 13:56:47 UTC
Good thread for a new player like myself to read.

I'd consider being scammed by another player a lesson learned and even try to figure a way to improve what they did. It's quite fun to scam a scammer.

As for loosing ISK... After playing about 2 months I haven't had more than 50m at one time yet. I plan on being flat broke many times over the first year playing this game. Too much to learn, too many fun things to try.

I don't see much difference in getting scammed out of a ship in the market and getting it blown up in a fight. You loose ISK either way.
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#93 - 2013-05-13 17:10:26 UTC
New players can also scam older players.

Also, certain conditions, for me, really disqualify an individual from being given any slack in EVE's PvP environment for being a newbie. For example - I killed a guy flying a Hulk who was trying to tell me I should leave him alone because he was a new player. New players don't fly Hulks. New players also don't have 300 million in their wallet to lose to a scammer. CCP already gives new players the only protection against scammers that they will ever need - when you create an account Jita is already on your avoidance list.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-05-13 18:18:19 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:
CCP already gives new players the only protection against scammers that they will ever need - when you create an account Jita is already on your avoidance list.


Best argument ever....+1

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Boe Harknes
The FreeThought Society
#95 - 2013-05-14 12:39:07 UTC
No offense to the OP but you just didn't pay attention. Navy Issue Ships have a little Icon in the upper left corner. That should of been your first give away. Second, if its too good of a deal, yadda yadda yadda. It sucks you got burned. Yes I do think they need a small scam tutorial. Oh and watch out for isk doublers. They tend to be a scam as well.
highonpop
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2013-05-14 13:25:51 UTC
So, OP, you got taken on a ship trade....... after you had to click OK on the ship trade warning...? Roll

How much more do you want from CCP? You had to click ok on a warning that pops up to warn about trading ships....

FC, what do?
Milan Nantucket
Doomheim
#97 - 2013-05-14 15:58:57 UTC
He had the common sense to ask in Rookie Chat... so
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Eve+Trade+Scams

Click the third result.
Lysander Fairewell
Fluffy Butt Fleet
#98 - 2013-05-14 23:03:57 UTC
What I want to know is how you had that much ISK in your first two weeks on the game.

: : - These Burning Lights - : : - The adventures and thoughts of a newbie in EVE Online.

http://burninglightseve.blogspot.com/
Dub Step
Death To Everyone But Us
#99 - 2013-05-14 23:23:12 UTC
CCP can't fix stupid, and dumbing down the game to your level is the last thing anyone wants.
Yuna Talie-Kuo
Laborantem Societatis
#100 - 2013-05-14 23:37:45 UTC
Congratulations, you have experienced a horrible ghost of EvE: The Ghost of Scamming Past.

Soon you will experience the follow:

The Ghost of BetrayalPresent.
The Ghost of Gate Camping Future.

As everyone here as stated, scamming is legal, as this is known as the SandBox.

Don't like scammers? Move out.
Don't like gate campers? Avoid the system.
Don't like Awoxers? Ask for Full API checks with mail listings + check their killmails.
Don't like some of the so-called douche-bags in EvE? Ignore them. (Right click portrait, press block)
Don't like spammers? Ignore them.
Don't wanna lose that fancy ship of yours? Don't fly it.
Don't wanna get ganked in a low security belt? Stay aligned to either a gate or station, be ready to press it at a moment's notice

You can learn plenty of small tricks that make life easier in New Eden. You just need to find them.

You even had warnings pop up. I suggest reading them.

Sure, scamming new players is a horrid thing to do, but it's a lesson you'll just have to take. Consider EvE a real-life reflection. You reap what you sow.

YTK

I don't always do shit. But when I do, it's usually worth doing.