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The only thing that stops me playing - Jump clone timers.

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MEZZA Creire-Geng
Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
Seventh Sanctum.
#81 - 2013-05-13 11:29:39 UTC
its been mentioned, but i support reducing the timer to 18 or 20 hours so that if your gaming time permits (3 hrs) a day you can jump to your clone at your usual late time to (pew pew that last KM for the Night) and be able to jump back at your usual login time the next Evening to enjoy your 3hrs gameplay rather than ship spinning.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2013-05-13 12:04:36 UTC

1. Good design is having tons of content so everything looks bigger.

2. Bad design is having tons of waiting so everything looks bigger.

3. If you boil Eve content down, you get 4 space wallpapers, a market, and a space combat engine.

4. That's why everything takes forever, otherwise you'd be done in 2 weeks.

5. If that happened you wouldn't have 50,000 players, you'd have 18 guys playing Red vs Blue in Rifters.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#83 - 2013-05-13 12:24:45 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So… remove learning implants?


From what I see in chatter in terms of players and their JC's, learning implants are a huge deciding factor in pvp participation.
I wish it were not so, there would be so many more players taking part in good pvp pewpew. I admit that my learning implants determine my modus operandi as to when I prepare for pvp - only on weekends.

Removing my learning implants (blank clone) affects my skill plan for the year by 16 days in the red. More and more I have asked myself - is that really such a big deal ? My answer is "no, it is not".

Forthwith I am determined not to allow implants to affect my days and times for EVE. They become a trap, slow and insidious from the day you do that first training course.

Skill implants for improved shields/armor/lasers etc - those are fine, they have no effect on your skill queue.
Learning implants are slow poison and change the way an individual plays EVE.

o7

Those other implants aren't fine either. They're just less of an issue. The problem is, that after the initial noobie phase you're going to pimp yourself with implants for your main activity and those benefits don't always carry over to PvP and even less to the specific type of PvP you're into. Furthermore those implants can be more expensive then even +5s and still be totally useless in your PvP activity and even if they offer a useful benefit, the risk of losing them will still create a barrier to PvP.

It really does no one any good to keep people married to specific implants, since the only result of the whole thing is less PvP happening. Yes they're a trap, that you can avoid by not using them. The thing is, that the efficiency benefits they provide mean it makes perfect sense to use them and if learning skills teached us anything it was, that people migrate towards efficiency even when it's clearly detrimental for their enjoyment of the game.

You really have 3 basic options here. Do nothing and accept the reduced level of PvP, remove/change all implants to reduce/remove the risk of losing them or allow people to freely choose the level of risk they're comfortable with by allowing them to choose the implants they will risk when they undock.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#84 - 2013-05-13 13:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Tippia wrote:
It's not so much that removing learning implants is dumbing the game down; it's that learning implants make players dumb. Ship combat should not be an adverse factor to character progression — quite the opposite (but then, it would be hard to make the opposite work without turning it into some kind of grinding, which is arguably even worse).


Implants don't make anyone dumb, they only give dumb players an excuse.

Player A insists on having a full set of +5s (yeah they always have the full set, don't ask why), and decides that he can't PVP because of them. He has read the first law of EVE, "don't fly what you can't afford to lose", but it's too complicated for him and his eyes glaze from to many wordzzz!11

Player B wears two +4s and doesn't give a single **** about pod loss.

After 3 years, player A has gained a little over month of training over player B. Player B has had fun for three years and is three years ahead of A in player skills.

Player A comes to the forums and blames game mechanics, because a typical human won't ever admit being dumb as a
****stick.

Oh and then there's also player C, who PVPs in T3s and pirate implant sets, and laughs at both the dumb A and the spacepoor B.

In the end, implants are just another in the endless line of excuses.

"I don't PVP because the fights are not fair"
"I don't PVP because in EVE it doesn't require any real skills"
"I would PVP but every gate is camped"
"I don't PVP because all PVPers are sociopathic mouthbreathers"
"I don't PVP because I don't have time wait for 2 hours for a fleet to form"
"I don't PVP because it would make Fluttershy angry"
"because of Falcon"
etc
etc

It's "I'm a dumb little ****wit and I'm scared to lose imaginary space kredits and I just need to get over myself" vs "change the game and then I show them all you'll see11!!!11"

Luckily, most people take the first option, hop in a ship and have awesometime, and only the dumbest come to the forums to post how dumb they are.


*please censor all profanity* - CCP Eterne

.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-05-13 13:37:45 UTC
Roime - "I don't have a problem with the current system, therefore there are no problems with the current system."

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Marcus Junius
Nephilim Ordo
#86 - 2013-05-13 13:39:40 UTC
Time to remove jump clones.

Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#87 - 2013-05-13 14:02:31 UTC
  • +4 implants are not really expensive.
  • You don't need a full set, all skills use only two attributes. And if you are a SP fanatic you train the same attributes until you can remap anyway, don't tell me otherwise!

    • That makes around 40mil for the implants per clone. Not really expensive and the SP you loose isn't even worth jumping into your training clone anymore.
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #88 - 2013-05-13 14:05:56 UTC
    Karak Terrel wrote:
  • +4 implants are not really expensive.
  • You don't need a full set, all skills use only two attributes. And if you are a SP fanatic you train the same attributes until you can remap anyway, don't tell me otherwise!

    • That makes around 40mil for the implants per clone. Not really expensive and the SP you loose isn't even worth jumping into your training clone anymore.

    Still not the point.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    Zifrian
    The Frog Pond
    Ribbit.
    #89 - 2013-05-13 14:12:21 UTC
    I mostly carebear...so I use +5s and sometimes hardwires. I play at random times. I won't go pvp unless my clone timer is up to hop in a pvp clone. I would like to pvp more but honestly I'm not going to sit in +4s all the time for the off chance ill be on when pvp is convenient. Sure its only 3ish hours, but it adds up. Sometimes I won't log in for a few days outside of doing skill updates. If I log in for two hours, I probably won't hop into a cheap clone for 2 hours knowing that I'll lose 24 hours of increased training time.

    If CCP wants more people to pvp, then some change would be required to the clone system. I would be much more likely to hop in a pvp fleet randomly if i could. This really isn't a 'don't use +5s then if you dont like it' issue to me. It really is a 'do you want more pvp or less pvp?' issue. Seriously, wouldn't experienced pvp pilots want more carebears like me to shoot at? Because if I'm in 5s and cant jump in and out of a clone quickly, I'm just going to sit in station/pos like the others until you leave or I'll log.

    I like the timers based on the number of jumps you make. Different costs are also interesting. Say pay more for reduced times. We always need more money sinks anyway.

    Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

    Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
    Princess Bride
    SharkNado
    #90 - 2013-05-13 14:17:27 UTC
    I agree with OP that the JC system as it stands discourages PVP.

    Human nature is what it is. There have been times when I have passed up an opportunity for some pvp because I didn't want to be bothered to jump into a cheap clone for various reasons and also did not want to fly an "expensive" clone into a situation where I might lose it. So, I let the opportunity to jump in and get a fight pass by.

    Many players have done this. That is a fact. All of the chest-pounding HTFU streams of consciousness are really nothing more than opinions. We can go around in circles all day about the validity of the choices made and the intelligence/courage/whatever of the players who have made this choice in the past because of the structure of the JC system. Pointing out that it "used to" suck even worse than it does now proves nothing. The fact remains that if the JC system were modified in a way that encouraged players to get into more fights, there would be more fights.

    In my opinion, more fights = more fun.




    http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
    Karak Terrel
    Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
    #91 - 2013-05-13 14:17:56 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    Karak Terrel wrote:
  • +4 implants are not really expensive.
  • You don't need a full set, all skills use only two attributes. And if you are a SP fanatic you train the same attributes until you can remap anyway, don't tell me otherwise!

    • That makes around 40mil for the implants per clone. Not really expensive and the SP you loose isn't even worth jumping into your training clone anymore.

    Still not the point.

    Yes it actually is. The jump clones may be broken too yes, but this is not the OPs actual problem.
    Hikaru Kuroda
    Extheria
    #92 - 2013-05-13 14:22:07 UTC
    Remove learning implants from game P
    War Kitten
    Panda McLegion
    #93 - 2013-05-13 14:38:05 UTC
    Ikasha Aurilen wrote:
    Right now the only thing that stops me from logging in and playing everyday is the 24hr timer on jump clones. I work a 9 till 5 job. ...snip...


    I have the perfect solution:

    HTFU, play the game like everyone else does and stop moaning about changing the rules to suit you.

    If there there weren't drawbacks to your decisions, they wouldn't be hard. If decisions weren't hard, there wouldn't be any point in making them.

    I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
    De'Veldrin
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #94 - 2013-05-13 14:48:50 UTC
    This thread delivers.

    /popcorn.

    De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
    Rexxorr
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #95 - 2013-05-13 15:13:47 UTC
    The only thing of real value is skill points, doubly true of new players. the only thing that increases that value is leaning implants.

    Removing learning implants or making them truly cheap would cause more capsuleers to pvp, how many more ? Maybe a few or maybe lots.

    I would prefer to just remove learning implants.
    March rabbit
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #96 - 2013-05-13 15:26:34 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    I still think learning implants are a good thing generally because they're one way that players can have an edge over others in training speed, the other way of course being neural remaps. If one can afford that edge they should by all means be allowed to have it.

    replace "learning implant" with "learning skill" and ....

    We will remove:
    - learning skills (already removed, players didn't want to make plans and decide between faster SP NOW/more SP OVERALL),
    - learning implants (players don't want to pvp with implants and don't want to plan accordingly. they WANT IT NOW)
    - jump clone timers (players don't want to wait and plan, thay WANT IT NOW)
    - remaps (players will not want to wait timers, they will WANT IT NOW)
    - what's next?

    The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #97 - 2013-05-13 15:36:15 UTC
    March rabbit wrote:
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    I still think learning implants are a good thing generally because they're one way that players can have an edge over others in training speed, the other way of course being neural remaps. If one can afford that edge they should by all means be allowed to have it.

    replace "learning implant" with "learning skill" and ....

    We will remove:
    - learning skills (already removed, players didn't want to make plans and decide between faster SP NOW/more SP OVERALL),
    - learning implants (players don't want to pvp with implants and don't want to plan accordingly. they WANT IT NOW)
    - jump clone timers (players don't want to wait and plan, thay WANT IT NOW)
    - remaps (players will not want to wait timers, they will WANT IT NOW)
    - what's next?


    As usual, you don't actually get what this whole argument is about.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    Zephyrial
    Zephyr Corp
    #98 - 2013-05-13 15:41:10 UTC
    I have never been podded while PvPing in hi or lo sec, what is the big deal? I guess this only applies to null? If you can't escape with your pod in empire, then you have other issues.
    Haulie Berry
    #99 - 2013-05-13 15:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
    I usually just PvP in +4s for whatever two stats I'm currently mapped into.

    If I lose them, I get over it, buy two more, and plug them in.

    I don't see any reason why it should be super-convenient to both enjoy the benefit of learning implants, and avoid the risk associated with losing them, and the "More people would PEEVEEPEE!" argument is silly.

    "More people would PvP if you removed all the risk from PvP!"
    Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
    Doomheim
    #100 - 2013-05-13 15:52:26 UTC
    Jump clone timer should be greatly reduced, perhaps to an hour or two

    But, don't eliminate the timer entirely; people shouldnt evade being hunted by constantly jump cloning away. :)

    Would you like to know more?