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Suspect flag for fighting against an outlaw?
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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#21 - 2013-05-12 09:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:


So, if my grandma is getting mugged and some good Samaritan steps in to help her, the good Samaritan should be subject to the same police response as the person mugging her. Does that seriously make sense to you? Does that seem like "suspect" behavior to you?

By your logic, the person shooting the criminal in the first place should get a suspect flag . . . and I bet that would make you quite happy; wouldn't it?


I notice you use an emotive argument here, even though there wre no grandmothers present in the OPs example. If you are a cop, and you come across a fight outside a pub between two guys and another one who is yelling encouragement, of course you consider the third man a suspect in the breach of the peace.

What would make ME happy is that if they stopped the silly flagging of neutral Neuting randomly into fights.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Let me direct you to a relevant Wikipedia entry: criminal law. Maybe you have misunderstood who he was engaging and who "started" the fight, because it wasn't the original poster or his friend in the logi. If you are choosing to be a pirate, then you are choosing to be "the enemy of all mankind" . . . you shouldn't get to ***** out when the SHTF and if pirates get to help eachother, then so should we, and OUR gate guns and OUR NPC police force should protect US. Get it?


I have no evidence the victim in the OP was a pirate. Did you pay taxes on those Gate Guns and police force btw?

Also "enemy of mankind". Many so-called pirates do an excellent duty of removing waste humans from this game.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-05-12 23:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mayhaw Morgan
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Just to recap let's go over the complaints made and you can see if you can spot one that applied to logistics that is neutral and not logistics that is not neutral:

- Logistics being able to jump and dock while repping
- Logistics entering the fight after the combat ships engage
- Can only be attacked by parties actually involved in the fight
- Waa guardians rep so much and I can't break them!


- Logistics that are not neutral can be forced into docking IMMEDIATELY. They don't get to burn to range or warp out and back. They are liable to get primed, forcing them into the docking/undocking cycle which takes away precious time and situational awareness from their repairing and potentially turns the fight. Logistics that are neutral can only be engaged at the time and while in the position of their choosing, which would tend to be outside of web/scram/DPS range.
- Logistics ships that are not neutral are in the fight. They "enter" the fight whenever they undock their ship. Neutral logistics are not and cannot be hindered in any way (i.e.: by being pointed 10 AUs away by a Condor camping the likely inbound gate). A logistics pilot that was pre-flagged for combat would need to gimp his ship to get off the gate or to warp out and back or to break range, etc.
- Neutral logistics pilots did not pay CONCORD to be able to engage in hostilities. Why should they get to play at all? And, if your stance is that neutral logistics aren't engaging in hostilities, then . . . why should they get any flagging at all? Why not just have free-for-all reps on everyone all the time with no consequences whatsoever?
- You can't break a neutral logi. You'll be CONCORDed. I definitely think logistics are overpowered, but that is a completely separate argument.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
I notice you use an emotive argument here, even though there wre no grandmothers present in the OPs example. If you are a cop, and you come across a fight outside a pub between two guys and another one who is yelling encouragement, of course you consider the third man a suspect in the breach of the peace.


I notice you use a straw man argument, here, even though the emotiveness of my example is unrelated to the logical integrity of my reasoning.

If I am a cop and come across some random person in a knock-down-drag-out fight with Hannibal Lecter or Osama Bin Laden, guess who I'm going to arrest . . . but then, I'm not a cop. Maybe a real cop let's them both go with a warning, eh?

In reality, you can cheer on a street-fight all you want, but once you step in and actively assist one of the parties, you are probably committing a crime. The difference in this case is that one of the parties just robbed a bank or killed someone. Do you think the police will arrest you for breaking up a bank robbery?

Ramona McCandless wrote:
I have no evidence the victim in the OP was a pirate. Did you pay taxes on those Gate Guns and police force btw?


I sure as hell DID pay 11% tax for those gate guns, and probably some to the SCC, too. Did you read the title of this thread?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#23 - 2013-05-13 08:13:09 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

- Logistics that are not neutral can be forced into docking IMMEDIATELY. They don't get to burn to range or warp out and back. They are liable to get primed, forcing them into the docking/undocking cycle which takes away precious time and situational awareness from their repairing and potentially turns the fight. Logistics that are neutral can only be engaged at the time and while in the position of their choosing, which would tend to be outside of web/scram/DPS range.


Docking games. You are seriously suggesting that decent logi pilots, "pirates" and/or wartargets should be using docking games to win or lose fights or that even said fights take place near a station? I don't recall that being mentioned anywhere in the example.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
- Neutral logistics pilots did not pay CONCORD to be able to engage in hostilities. Why should they get to play at all? And, if your stance is that neutral logistics aren't engaging in hostilities, then . . . why should they get any flagging at all? Why not just have free-for-all reps on everyone all the time with no consequences whatsoever?
- You can't break a neutral logi. You'll be CONCORDed. I definitely think logistics are overpowered, but that is a completely separate argument.


Sorry? PAY Concord? In what manner do you play Concord anything exactly?

Also, if "neutral" Reps arent flagged in your world, why should neut Neuts?



Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
I notice you use a straw man argument, here, even though the emotiveness of my example is unrelated to the logical integrity of my reasoning.


Yes it is, it is an entirely unrealistic example within EvE. There is nothing equivalent to a grandmother here.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
If I am a cop and come across some random person in a knock-down-drag-out fight with Hannibal Lecter or Osama Bin Laden, guess who I'm going to arrest . . . but then, I'm not a cop. Maybe a real cop let's them both go with a warning, eh?

In reality, you can cheer on a street-fight all you want, but once you step in and actively assist one of the parties, you are probably committing a crime.


*Lector. And what kind of cartoon example is that? Sorry to dispell your idea of how the world works, but Hannibal Lector and Osama Bin Laden are not usually present in a street brawl or armed robbery, one being fictional and the other being dead. Your example is extremely fatuous and does not support your assertion that the police dont make you a suspect for being present at a scene of a crime and being obviously associated with one of the parties.

Incitement to violence IS a crime, I think you'll find.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
The difference in this case is that one of the parties just robbed a bank or killed someone. Do you think the police will arrest you for breaking up a bank robbery?

......I sure as hell DID pay 11% tax for those gate guns, and probably some to the SCC, too. Did you read the title of this thread?


Again. this isnt a bank robbery, its a brawl in the street. No one is wearing a uniform and both are flying warships, so... well Im sure you can work out why I dont buy your bank robbery analogy.

Really? You paid taxes to Concord, did you? I find that EXCEPTIONALLY hard to believe. Yes, the title of the thread is "Suspect flag for fighting against an outlaw?", not "I Was Attacked By Concord for fight against an outlaw", which is really what you'd need to have happened before you had a case here.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#24 - 2013-05-13 09:06:00 UTC
At this time I think our friend has made himself look sufficiently moronic that no further response is required.
feihcsiM
THE B0YS
#25 - 2013-05-13 09:18:54 UTC
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
his safeties were green



Kenneth Skybound wrote:
this is a low sec system



Usually a bad combination.

It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#26 - 2013-05-13 09:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
So, if my grandma is getting mugged and some good Samaritan steps in to help her, the good Samaritan should be subject to the same police response as the person mugging her. Does that seriously make sense to you? Does that seem like "suspect" behavior to you?

By your logic, the person shooting the criminal in the first place should get a suspect flag . . . and I bet that would make you quite happy; wouldn't it?

Let me direct you to a relevant Wikipedia entry: criminal law. Maybe you have misunderstood who he was engaging and who "started" the fight, because it wasn't the original poster or his friend in the logi. If you are choosing to be a pirate, then you are choosing to be "the enemy of all mankind" . . . you shouldn't get to ***** out when the SHTF and if pirates get to help eachother, then so should we, and OUR gate guns and OUR NPC police force should protect US. Get it?


There isn't a wikipedia entry for "Video game mechanics intended for balance in gameplay are not comparable to real life criminal law" but if there was I'd be pointing you to that.

If your buddy wants to fight the criminal scum then he should fight the criminal scum, not be a neutral party who hides behind concord.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-05-13 15:58:20 UTC
"Suspect flag for fighting against an outlaw?"

The question is basically this: What is suspect about fighting an outlaw? Why should anyone who is engaging an outlaw, either directly or indirectly, have to acquire any sort of flagging beyond a limited engagement timer with said outlaw?

It is not about neutral logistics ships.

I can tell you that in the middle of a fight, as a logistics pilot, you don't really have the time or wherewithall to engage each of the hostile targets for a cycle to avoid being flagged as suspect, so often the end result is that a logistics pilot that is helping in a fight against outlaws/suspects/criminals is subject to the CONCORD sanction of being flagged as "Suspect". That basically puts them on equal footing with the outlaws/suspects/criminals, whereas the DPS, eWar, capacitor warfare, etc. players do not have to acquire this flagging to do their job.
Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-05-13 17:30:55 UTC
Agent Trask wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
You started a fight with a valid target, your friend, who was not involved, interfered by providing one party reps

he deserves the suspect flag


This. Have the Logi aggress the target. Yes, he can shoot back, but then you avoid the suspect flag, something designed to prevent invincible neutral logis.


Here is your solution, OP Lol

Have your friend throw a drone on the enemy suspect, join the limited engagement, then start repping you.

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#29 - 2013-05-14 06:59:25 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
"Suspect flag for fighting against an outlaw?"

The question is basically this: What is suspect about fighting an outlaw? Why should anyone who is engaging an outlaw, either directly or indirectly, have to acquire any sort of flagging beyond a limited engagement timer with said outlaw?


Kenneth Skybound wrote:
Myself and another decided to sit on a gate for legal targets - suspect flagged, criminal flagged and outlaw players - to make an interesting kill or 2.


Your examples about crime and criminals and the police have no bearing in this case.

As you can see, the protagonists werent chasing a kill-righted or wardecced criminal who had wronged them, they were gate camping for an easy gank.

Dont you think that behaviour is suspect in itself?

Why shouldnt all the members of this vigilante party be flagged?

And why are you ok with the prime attacker being flagged but not the logi?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#30 - 2013-05-14 07:20:40 UTC
Also...

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
That basically puts them on equal footing with the outlaws/suspects/criminals, whereas the DPS, eWar, capacitor warfare, etc. players do not have to acquire this flagging to do their job.



What game is it that you are playing exactly? Because it cant be this one.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
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