These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Tibus Heth denounces Federation; offers condolences to Republic
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#81 - 2013-05-10 15:31:54 UTC
I personally find Mr Crow last answer to be perfectly reasonable...

Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
For every machine you give me that can do the job of several people, that's fewer slaves I require. Trade with the Caldari and the introduction of more and better automated systems reduces the economic need for slavery.


You should not be holding slaves out of 'economic need'. You should be holding them out of concern for their spiritual development.


Go tell that to Khanid II.


I suspect all those the Imperial throne recognizes as part of the pier council are quite aware of the duties God places upon all who choose to hold slaves in Gods name.

M.K.C.


Oh, I am pretty sure that they do.

Especially Khanid II.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-05-10 16:09:34 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Capsuleer Haakatain, seven years ago? You are flying in active support of a people who continue to consider grievances sevenhundred years old as valid causes for treaty breaches today.


I assure you, the Minmatar consider the grievance - namely the enslavement of their kin - to be an ongoing and modern one rather than a seven hundred year old one. And nothing I've seen since I first jumped into a pod in YC107 has convinced me they're wrong to. I don't always agree with how they go about trying to set right this injustice, but I most certainly do agree they are within their rights to feel aggrieved.

In any case, my time in ReAw has not seen me fire on a single Amarrian vessel. Not one. I don't take part in the lowsec war because it would be a conflict of interest - I have made it clear to the corp on many occasions that joining the war would result in my departure. I don't take mercenary work for Matari corporations. I joined ReAw because a good friend of mine was the CEO, and though she has since moved on to a different venture I've stayed here because I like the corp, I like the people, I like the resources I have access to and I like the Minmatar.

It's given me the distant perspective from which I'm able to look back on my homeland and give it an honest appraisal (only to discover that I am more patriotic now than I ever was before). It's given me the opportunity to learn a little bit of how a different fragment of humanity views the world. It's given me access to markets that are less hectic and crowded than those of Lonetrek and The Forge.

I won't deny, I DO support the Minmatar. Not in everything they do, nor blindly, because I don't even do that for the Caldari and the State, with whom my loyalties truly lie. But you'd better believe that so long as it doesn't conflict with my Heiian, the Tribes have a friend in Yakiya Verin Hakatain.

If that's enough for Amarr pilots to label me a terrorist, then that's a badge I'll wear with pride.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Larissa Newport
Slavers Unbound
#83 - 2013-05-10 19:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Larissa Newport
Heth does what needs to be done in a war and that is to make The State stronger and its competitors weaker.

Many opportunities will arise from confusion, business-wise and military-wise. Perfect timing to give an opportunistic speech like that. Let all these "democraticaly chosen" politicians work hard to explain it to their voters and allies, the less time they have to take the actions necessary to get them out of this mess they have gotten The Federation in in the first place.

Don't give me bullshit that it's too obvious what Heth is saying, I know it is, however: it is working already. It's an - in your face politics for the masses 101 - lesson right there.

Smart move Heth. Well done.

-- Chaos always wins, it is simply better organized.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#84 - 2013-05-10 23:30:05 UTC
Nick Bete

Quote:
You do realize that the State isn't exempt from the Amarrian Reclaiming, I hope? Your allies in the Empire have every intention of subjugating the Caldari and forcing you to convert to their culture, religion and laws along with the rest of us. Your ties to the Empire are born of temporary convenience. Don't kid yourselves into believing that the Amarr see you as equals. They don't. They don't even treat many of their own, who've fought along side them for centuries and who've adopted their religion, as equal partners. Just ask the average Ni-Kunni how they're treated by the Amarr.

Please don't take this as a Gallentean attempting to tell you how to run your affairs. That is not my intent, truly and I mean no offense. Consider my words more as a friendly caution.


I appreciate your words Nick and will treat them as such.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#85 - 2013-05-11 00:42:45 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
You do realize that the State isn't exempt from the Amarrian Reclaiming, I hope? Your allies in the Empire have every intention of subjugating the Caldari and forcing you to convert to their culture, religion and laws along with the rest of us.


Really? Then why didn't we get the memo on this? I guess it is truly a testament to the FIO that you guys always seem to have better knowledge of the Empire's grand plans than we do ourselves.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#86 - 2013-05-11 04:26:00 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:
Sansha Kuvakei was/is a Caldari and he violated Caldari law and tradition, much as the officer who authorized the slave-based Amarrian disaster management crew. Kuvakei's violation was on an incredible scale.

How, exactly? By setting up colonies of his own and declaring them independent of State oversight and law?

One could argue he was following Caldari tradition.

Not that it really makes a difference. Irrespective of the circumstances of his birth, by the time Nation was attacked he was not Caldari, if he ever considered himself such.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#87 - 2013-05-11 04:50:18 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:

One could argue he was following Caldari tradition.


One could. One would also be wrong.

Katrina Oniseki
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#88 - 2013-05-11 06:36:50 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
You do realize that the State isn't exempt from the Amarrian Reclaiming, I hope? Your allies in the Empire have every intention of subjugating the Caldari and forcing you to convert to their culture, religion and laws along with the rest of us.


Really? Then why didn't we get the memo on this? I guess it is truly a testament to the FIO that you guys always seem to have better knowledge of the Empire's grand plans than we do ourselves.


I have Empire friends who consider the Caldari to simply be the least offensive of the heathens. Most of them aren't so far gone that they wouldn't prefer us to 'see the light' on our own, but I'm sure that if the opportunity to 'reclaim' the State arose they'd seize it with glee.

This doesn't mean we can't work with them. It simply means we must do so CAREFULLY.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#89 - 2013-05-11 11:05:31 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
You do realize that the State isn't exempt from the Amarrian Reclaiming, I hope? Your allies in the Empire have every intention of subjugating the Caldari and forcing you to convert to their culture, religion and laws along with the rest of us.


Really? Then why didn't we get the memo on this? I guess it is truly a testament to the FIO that you guys always seem to have better knowledge of the Empire's grand plans than we do ourselves.


I have Empire friends who consider the Caldari to simply be the least offensive of the heathens. Most of them aren't so far gone that they wouldn't prefer us to 'see the light' on our own, but I'm sure that if the opportunity to 'reclaim' the State arose they'd seize it with glee.

This doesn't mean we can't work with them. It simply means we must do so CAREFULLY.


Due to it's adherance to treaties made with Amarr and contracts made with individual Faithful being respected and upheld by the State. Accompanied by the equal access Amarrian Faith is afforded to the market place of ideas in the State, there is no need to seek or indeed use any such opportunities.

As things stand current relationship with Caldari State and Amarr Empire is one of the best, if not the last, arguments Amarrian liberals have for the Faithful and heathens as equal allies and trading partners on governmental and intergalactic level. Is there a theological call to reclaim all heathens? Ofcourse there is. However suggesting that the Caldari are next, betrays a severe lack of perspective and understanding.

Consider that I personally see Empires understanding with the Caldari a far greater change than the Jove Conflict and Minmatar Rebellion, peace treaties included, ever had on us. For those who claim ideological opposition to the Amarrian tradition of enslaving seeking to drive a wedge into this alliance should be seen as both foolish and morally questionable. To my personal distaste, Caldari may one day succeed with trade in what the Minmatar have and will forever fail at with force of arms.

So, when all other heathens have fallen to the Reclaimings should the Caldari be concerned? No. They should be concerned if they ever decide to provide a clear need to Reclaim them by force of arms. Untill such day the Faithful will have heretics, Sansha's abominitions and the Sleepers to deal with. And should there in the millennias far into the future come a day with nothing but the Amarr Empire and Caldari State? As ever, the word of the Faithful is the best shield against our arms.

Capsuleer Haakatain, for an individual claiming to understand the Faithfull your apparent understanding of my words, as per your responce to them, is at best half of what you claim. You have found employment in a corporation that has taken action that has caused said corporation to have a questionable reputation with some Amarr. an Amarrian has adviced those following this discussion on the reputation of your corporation. So perhaps you should take off that martyr's cloack, it seems an ill fit.

M.K.C.

Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#90 - 2013-05-11 11:55:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
The Caldari fear being devoured. History has shown them that large entities seek to devour smaller ones. While some joke that the Caldari are squids, they are much more like crabs. A hard shell to protect predators and wicked claws to keep them at bay.

The Caldari fear of an Imperial Reclaiming has nothing to do with the Amarr and much to do with the Gallente. The differences between the Empire and the Federation are deep but lie along cultural lines that the Caldari often can't appreciate in a meaningful way.

In their heart of hearts, I suspect Caldari see everything that is not Caldari as a potential threat.

I don't particularly find it offensive. I hope that others don't either. At some point, it's best to just shrug our shoulders and say 'that's just the way their mind works.'

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Kymki Akamitsu
Instrumentality of Trade
#91 - 2013-05-11 12:32:07 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
The Caldari fear being devoured. History has shown them that large entities seek to devour smaller ones. While some joke that the Caldari are squids, they are much more like crabs. A hard shell to protect predators and wicked claws to keep them at bay.

The Caldari fear of an Imperial Reclaiming has nothing to do with the Amarr and much to do with the Gallente. The differences between the Empire and the Federation are deep but lie along cultural lines that the Caldari often can't appreciate in a meaningful way.

In their heart of hearts, I suspect Caldari see everything that is not Caldari as a potential threat.

I don't particularly find it offensive. I hope that others don't either. At some point, it's best to just shrug our shoulders and say 'that's just the way their mind works.'


I have yet to read a collection of words that contain less meaning this. Your abuse of metaphors make any interpretation impossible. If you want people to respect you and find what you say credible, dont pretend to be capable treating the Caldari like a flock following the same will and emotion.

A people does not fear. Individual human beings fear. Address fear on an individual basis and we can start having a discussion.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#92 - 2013-05-11 13:12:42 UTC
Kymki Akamitsu wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
The Caldari fear being devoured. History has shown them that large entities seek to devour smaller ones. While some joke that the Caldari are squids, they are much more like crabs. A hard shell to protect predators and wicked claws to keep them at bay.

The Caldari fear of an Imperial Reclaiming has nothing to do with the Amarr and much to do with the Gallente. The differences between the Empire and the Federation are deep but lie along cultural lines that the Caldari often can't appreciate in a meaningful way.

In their heart of hearts, I suspect Caldari see everything that is not Caldari as a potential threat.

I don't particularly find it offensive. I hope that others don't either. At some point, it's best to just shrug our shoulders and say 'that's just the way their mind works.'


I have yet to read a collection of words that contain less meaning this. Your abuse of metaphors make any interpretation impossible. If you want people to respect you and find what you say credible, dont pretend to be capable treating the Caldari like a flock following the same will and emotion.

A people does not fear. Individual human beings fear. Address fear on an individual basis and we can start having a discussion.

The Lady Hanaya's statement was quite meaningful, ma'am. Social groups do follow trends and in this fashion can be said to hold a collective will and sentiment. While outliers will exist, these outliers can be accommodated in current sociological models. This fact extends to all humans, not just to the Caldari.

Individual people can be difficult to predict. Groups of people, much less difficult.

I do prefer the metaphor of being a crab. Some of them are very cheerfully coloured, and they always seem to look happy, to me!
Kymki Akamitsu
Instrumentality of Trade
#93 - 2013-05-11 13:53:47 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Kymki Akamitsu wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
The Caldari fear being devoured. History has shown them that large entities seek to devour smaller ones. While some joke that the Caldari are squids, they are much more like crabs. A hard shell to protect predators and wicked claws to keep them at bay.

The Caldari fear of an Imperial Reclaiming has nothing to do with the Amarr and much to do with the Gallente. The differences between the Empire and the Federation are deep but lie along cultural lines that the Caldari often can't appreciate in a meaningful way.

In their heart of hearts, I suspect Caldari see everything that is not Caldari as a potential threat.

I don't particularly find it offensive. I hope that others don't either. At some point, it's best to just shrug our shoulders and say 'that's just the way their mind works.'


I have yet to read a collection of words that contain less meaning this. Your abuse of metaphors make any interpretation impossible. If you want people to respect you and find what you say credible, dont pretend to be capable treating the Caldari like a flock following the same will and emotion.

A people does not fear. Individual human beings fear. Address fear on an individual basis and we can start having a discussion.

The Lady Hanaya's statement was quite meaningful, ma'am. Social groups do follow trends and in this fashion can be said to hold a collective will and sentiment. While outliers will exist, these outliers can be accommodated in current sociological models. This fact extends to all humans, not just to the Caldari.

Individual people can be difficult to predict. Groups of people, much less difficult.

I do prefer the metaphor of being a crab. Some of them are very cheerfully coloured, and they always seem to look happy, to me!


That models can be used to explain the dynamics of data systems is something all capsuleers know. If it indeed was statistical significance of a certain result Makkal Hanaya was attempting to prove, I would have expected more elaborate proof of her deductions. With the above statement, the only thing i can conclude is that a simplification of the symbol "Caldari" was invoked and that it was done without explanation.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#94 - 2013-05-11 14:42:43 UTC
Kymki Akamitsu wrote:
That models can be used to explain the dynamics of data systems is something all capsuleers know. If it indeed was statistical significance of a certain result Makkal Hanaya was attempting to prove, I would have expected more elaborate proof of her deductions. With the above statement, the only thing i can conclude is that a simplification of the symbol "Caldari" was invoked and that it was done without explanation.


The good Lady speaks colloquially, as she is speaking to a colloquial audience. If you wish to see the formulaic argument (which I encourage anyone to do), please reference Volume 17 Issue 4 of "Lonetrek Market Modeling Review." LMMR is an excellent resource, and I direct you specifically to "Conjunctive Synthesis of Culturally Static Memeplexes," [M. Arcuuti, S. Emerakka, L. Oto.] While the price of a subscription is a little expensive, I've found mine to be a wonderful investment.

After this, I would suggest you continue on to R. Meriata's excellent book, "Pedant No More: How To Reach Your Audience." It is a comfortable read and instructive on the proper use of the formal and informal argument structures.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#95 - 2013-05-11 16:33:13 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:
Dex Nederland wrote:
Sansha Kuvakei was/is a Caldari and he violated Caldari law and tradition, much as the officer who authorized the slave-based Amarrian disaster management crew. Kuvakei's violation was on an incredible scale.

How, exactly? By setting up colonies of his own and declaring them independent of State oversight and law?

One could argue he was following Caldari tradition.

Not that it really makes a difference. Irrespective of the circumstances of his birth, by the time Nation was attacked he was not Caldari, if he ever considered himself such.


I was not answering how Kuvakei viewed/views himself. I was explaining how the Caldari leadership at the time viewed their responsibility to take action (Heiian) and how the decision fits into Caldari philosophy.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems