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Nightmare vs RNI/CRN
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Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-05-10 10:05:16 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
what are it's disadvantages


For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster. You can't really make it work without, and it allways disgusted me to use those for PvE. I've considered the NM as an option, but cap-boosters weren't worth it for me.

Especially because I see the lacks of Turrets while flying with a budd almost every day, and getting called in the night because "SANSHA TD ZOMG, HELP" isn't exactly fun :D

Given the Buff to missiles next month, the benefit of flying a NM over CNR (moar damage) shrinks to almost 0. Cruisers will be a one-hit show, while elite-frigs should die within 2-3 volleys. It's okey for flying an allround ship which does perfectly well on every mission. Can't wait for the CNR getting another mid-slot like the raven aswell.. two TP's are going to kick buttz :D
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-05-10 10:11:44 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
what are it's disadvantages


For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster. You can't really make it work without, and it allways disgusted me to use those for PvE. I've considered the NM as an option, but cap-boosters weren't worth it for me.

Especially because I see the lacks of Turrets while flying with a budd almost every day, and getting called in the night because "SANSHA TD ZOMG, HELP" isn't exactly fun :D

Given the Buff to missiles next month, the benefit of flying a NM over CNR (moar damage) shrinks to almost 0. Cruisers will be a one-hit show, while elite-frigs should die within 2-3 volleys. It's okey for flying an allround ship which does perfectly well on every mission. Can't wait for the CNR getting another mid-slot like the raven aswell.. two TP's are going to kick buttz :D


I don't understand what all the hate is with cap boosters, i mean all it is is just another button to press. It opens up so many more fits than attempting to make something cap stable without it.

Art of Explosions
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-05-10 10:35:02 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
It also gets a 10% explosion radius increase. Being king is not about paper dps. In my NM I would have insta popped almost every single frig that is over 20km away, with 1 turret per frig, cruisers and BC die almost as quickly.. The NM will then kill a BS at the same speed a golem does, at further ranges.. its all about applied dps.. you will not be able to do this with a CNR.. no matter how much damage bonus it gets..
The NM will also reach out easily to over 120km... so range really is not an issue.
If lasers could switch damage types I would probably never use my mach.
If you worried about cap management.. I hear passive drakes are pretty good with that :)
Best is to go on to the test server and see for yourself..


In my tests on both Duality and SiSi, that 10% explosion radius increase is barely noticeable (plus we're getting increased rigging space, yay :D), the CNR melts anything at any range. Nightmare will easily reach 120 km, but it'll also deal a third of CNR's damage at that range, without CNR's fully selectable ammunition. Additionally, missiles are completely immune to tracking disruptors and allow the ship to pop a frigate - even a very fast one - at point blank range - at no cap cost at all. Will Nightmare kill frigates faster at range? Yes. But that's about all it'll do better.

Tldr: With missile buff, the CNR is a beast, simply unmatched at ranged dps. If anything, I half expect it to get nerfed once navy battleships are going to be tiericided.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#24 - 2013-05-10 10:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
what are it's disadvantages


For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster.


That's not a disadvantage, that's just you not liking cap boosters.

The Nightmare is a slow, squishy, high damage battleship. You need to have good capacitor skills, and I wouldn't get into one without T2 hobgoblins, T2 shield tank and at least meta4 (Imperial Navy is better) Tachyon Beam Lasers with all gunnery supports at IV. The trade off for this, is that it is one of the highest damage battleships available, and the ships that beat it, do so only against Angels, or at closer range. Against Sansha, Blood Raiders and Drones, the Nightmare is the ultimate carebear ship. I also hear it's pretty good in incursions.

The disadvantages I've noticed are as follows:
- T2 Tachyons burn your cap like you wouldn't believe. You can somewhat fix this with faction guns and implants, but good cap skills are still a must, and yes, you should fit a cap booster... but I fit a cap booster to all my mission ships anyway. Cap booster aversion is a fairly common mental illness among mission runners, make sure you don't contract it. Cap boosters allow you to fit damage mods in your mids and lows instead of cap mods, which makes your missions go faster, and your wallet fatter.
- It is slow. You wont be zooming around in this ship like you can in a T3 or Machariel. This is offset by the large optimal range. You don't need to zoom around, you can wreck everything from where you are.
- Poor tracking up close. This is a fairly ubiquitous problem for all battleship guns, they simply can't hit things at close range. Make sure you bring Hobgoblin IIs.
- Tracking Disruption can mess with you. If you have good skills, a good fit, and good target selection, this is more of an annoyance than anything else.
- Low/poor tank. This ship is not a brick. Its high damage encourages fitting for damage, and not for tank. I usually run mine with about 80% of the tank I have on my CNR fit... but it has something like 50,000 less buffer than the CNR. It will die faster. But the Nightmare's tank goes in the high slots anyway.

The advantages though:
- Tachyons. The Nightmare is one of only a handful of ships in the game that can fit these without gimping their fit. With good skills and implants, you can kill 4 frigates every 7 seconds or so. Mission frigates die faster than I can lock them. High damage, high optimal and high damage application. There is nothing to not like here.
- Large optimal range. Using IN Multifrequency ammo (the good, close range stuff) I can hit out to 43kms, which is about where most mission rats sit. For the ones further out, IN Ultraviolet gives 75km optimal, and Aurrora (try not to use this, ever) gives 154km optimal. You don't need to go fast when you can incinerate everything in the room from wherever you happen to warp in.
- Spikes. Seriously, it's covered in them.
- Utility highs. This is a minor advantage, that only really becomes noticeable when you are in a fleet (incursion). You do have 2 utility highs. Fit a tractor and a salvager and make a little bit of extra income, or fit a cap transfer and shield repper and spider tank with a friend.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-05-10 10:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
what are it's disadvantages


For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster. You can't really make it work without, and it allways disgusted me to use those for PvE. I've considered the NM as an option, but cap-boosters weren't worth it for me.

Especially because I see the lacks of Turrets while flying with a budd almost every day, and getting called in the night because "SANSHA TD ZOMG, HELP" isn't exactly fun :D

Given the Buff to missiles next month, the benefit of flying a NM over CNR (moar damage) shrinks to almost 0. Cruisers will be a one-hit show, while elite-frigs should die within 2-3 volleys. It's okey for flying an allround ship which does perfectly well on every mission. Can't wait for the CNR getting another mid-slot like the raven aswell.. two TP's are going to kick buttz :D


I don't understand what all the hate is with cap boosters, i mean all it is is just another button to press. It opens up so many more fits than attempting to make something cap stable without it.


Personal preference that is. I just don't like to spend money on the charges, nor do I want the need to refill them. It also takes up a lot of space on my CNR, which is reserved for ammo (running 5-6 missions in a row without docking isn't uncommon for me).

Besides that, I do run a cap-stable fit with a Gist C-type medium SB (and no, NO gimping here :P). Tanks the bare minimum and is certainly cheeper than Gist X-Type fueled with a cap-booster.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-05-10 11:44:23 UTC
Paikis wrote:


The disadvantages I've noticed are as follows:

The advantages though:
The Nightmare does sound very interesting. Later on, when I have skills, I will give it a try.

Thank you.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-05-10 11:46:18 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:

Tldr: With missile buff, the CNR is a beast, simply unmatched at ranged dps. If anything, I half expect it to get nerfed once navy battleships are going to be tiericided.
I also expect a nerf, but I will enjoy being over powered until they do.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-05-10 13:47:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Paikis wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
what are it's disadvantages


For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster.


That's not a disadvantage, that's just you not liking cap boosters.


Ofcourse it is personal preference if you like to use them or not, but I just can't see how having to fit a cap-module on a PvE ship is not a disadvantage?
Volkar Amphal
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-05-10 14:20:13 UTC
I've been running Level 4s with the nightmare and quite often with a friend flying a CNR. Both of us got into these ships way before we could fly them anywhere near their potential (5M SP), but straight off the bat they were decent upgrades over the standard Raven and Armegeddon combo we were flying previously. Early doors my friends Raven was primary tank and damage dealer, and I was just along for the ride having not yet got my shield skills up. Plus i think missiles tend to be quicker to level to a decent standard than lasers. Less skills to learn. And while I was a fragile little flower, my friend was a beast immediately. Anyhow, we both kept training and bit by bit my Nightmare started to catch up in terms of dealing damage. See the thing is the tracking boost means that the Nightmare's applied damage with Tachs at anything over about 20km is consistant, high and instant. And the fact it can have it's optimal range, with it's best ammo, at 35k+, means that almost everything level 4 missions throw at you sits nicely at the range where you can deal 1000+ dps. As someone mentioned above, a single tach will pop most frigs in one shot, so you unlink your guns and pretty much take all the small ships out in the first 20-30 secs of combat. The Raven by which time has barely been able to connect with a single volley. The cruisers go down in one alpha strike, then as I said the bigger ships, which mostly sit at 20-45k away take the full force of what you can fire, with very few shots going astray. As of today, while I can never take the same sort of punishment he can, I can finish most level 4s as quick by myself as I can with both of us flying. It's only really the battleships that he can even help with as the Nightmare can take out everything smaller before his missles can land. It's a very powerful ship and, Angels apart, probably the best missioning ship in the game along with the Mach and Maraurders. And it's main weakness, small ships too close to hit, can easily be mitigated with either drones or smart bombs. I personally fly a smart bomb on it at all times along with a drone augmenter. It's other weakness is the cap needed to keep feeding the tachions, but for missioning, a couple of mins cap is all you need to eat throug half a room. I don't even use a booster, just a couple of rigs and 1-2 cap recharges. Sure you lose a bit of tank, but frankly you don't need it. As long as those guns are fed you can destroy any serious dps on you as soon as they are targetted.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#30 - 2013-05-10 16:50:23 UTC
Quote:
Being king is not about paper dps.


/thread.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-05-10 16:56:07 UTC
Volkar Amphal wrote:
I've been running Level 4s with the nightmare and quite often with a friend flying a CNR. Both of us got into these ships way before we could fly them anywhere near their potential (5M SP), but straight off the bat they were decent upgrades over the standard Raven and Armegeddon combo we were flying previously. Early doors my friends Raven was primary tank and damage dealer, and I was just along for the ride having not yet got my shield skills up. Plus i think missiles tend to be quicker to level to a decent standard than lasers. Less skills to learn. And while I was a fragile little flower, my friend was a beast immediately. Anyhow, we both kept training and bit by bit my Nightmare started to catch up in terms of dealing damage. See the thing is the tracking boost means that the Nightmare's applied damage with Tachs at anything over about 20km is consistant, high and instant. And the fact it can have it's optimal range, with it's best ammo, at 35k+, means that almost everything level 4 missions throw at you sits nicely at the range where you can deal 1000+ dps. As someone mentioned above, a single tach will pop most frigs in one shot, so you unlink your guns and pretty much take all the small ships out in the first 20-30 secs of combat. The Raven by which time has barely been able to connect with a single volley. The cruisers go down in one alpha strike, then as I said the bigger ships, which mostly sit at 20-45k away take the full force of what you can fire, with very few shots going astray. As of today, while I can never take the same sort of punishment he can, I can finish most level 4s as quick by myself as I can with both of us flying. It's only really the battleships that he can even help with as the Nightmare can take out everything smaller before his missles can land. It's a very powerful ship and, Angels apart, probably the best missioning ship in the game along with the Mach and Maraurders. And it's main weakness, small ships too close to hit, can easily be mitigated with either drones or smart bombs. I personally fly a smart bomb on it at all times along with a drone augmenter. It's other weakness is the cap needed to keep feeding the tachions, but for missioning, a couple of mins cap is all you need to eat throug half a room. I don't even use a booster, just a couple of rigs and 1-2 cap recharges. Sure you lose a bit of tank, but frankly you don't need it. As long as those guns are fed you can destroy any serious dps on you as soon as they are targetted.

do you honestly expect anyone to read this?

I should buy an Ishtar.
JoostSkywalker
Lionheart Investments
#32 - 2013-05-10 19:10:37 UTC
I really like to fly the machariel. Smooth, all damagetypes, big boat.
But if you really want to advance go use different ships against different enemies.
Mach, vindi, nightmare, cnr or the different marauders.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#33 - 2013-05-10 20:07:15 UTC
Also, the cap booster is far from mandatory. You don't need to be cap stable by a longshot. Gank tank + a couple faction mods will propel you quickly through any mission.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Melikor Tissant
Odd Fluffy Bunnies
#34 - 2013-05-11 11:03:38 UTC
There are pros and cons to use CNR over Nightmare, even after the next expansion.

Nightmare is easier to snipe frigates and cruisers, which helps to get of them quickly in a mission instead of spending time managing drones or trying to kill them with cruise missiles.

Also Nightmare can fit a bit better tank if you want cap-stable instead of cap boosters.

The CNR is going to get some love, but it doesn't change the fact that its still a CNR.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#35 - 2013-05-11 22:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: DeLindsay
Quote:
If you are looking for the best L4 mission ship it's the Rattlesnake.


Wait what? Did you seriously just say that or are you trolling us? I have a Rattler and although it's great fun as a Drone boat and has an amazing tank, it's DPS output is crap for LvL 4's and it's got to be the SLOWEST BS in Eve.


Nightmare: Excellent for Sansha/BR (beyond terrible against Angels).

CNR: Gonna be a beast after Odyssey and very omni good Missioner.

Mach: Currently the "best" omni Mission runner (there's better for some Missions, but not many).

NDomi: Awesome if you have HIGH Drone skills but some don't like to "manage" Drones.

Vindi: Absurdly high DPS against Angels/Serpentis due to orbit range (not good for maybe half the Missions).

Rattlesnake: One of the best for tanking (you can't tank NPCs to death) but low DPS output.

Mauraders: Very solid LvL 4 platform, perfect for solo loot/salvaging, bit low on DPS (suck against jamming).

T3/HaCs: Although their DPS is lower they tank VERY well and complete Missions pretty darn fast.


There's more ofc, and there is no one ship that's perfectly suited to every single Mission type even within the same Region of space running for the same LvL 4 Security Agent.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-05-12 04:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
rattle can fit 900+ ACTUAL DPS at 98km

People keep comparing what EFT says their DPS is compared to what they actually do in a real situation.

For example I recently explained to someone that a mach will not outdamage a rattle given a controlled scenario until the targets come significantly closer.

The example used a mach with standard fittings (4 faction gyros 3 TE) using barrage vs a rattle with 4 navy BCUs and 2 DDA

mach had a range of 8.5+104 while the rattle does it's ENTIRE dps at 98km using bouncers.

mach at 98k does about half of it's "EFT" dps, tiny bit more: around 650 of its 1108 potential.

only when targets come down below around 60km does its damage start matching the rattle's applied DPS

Given the fact that MANY missions spawn rats further than 60km away from you: the rattle is actually quicker at clearing than the mach in most situations

Note that this is with barrage and only viable for angels, what happens if you put both ships up against another faction?

oh-ho-ho the mach only has falloff bonuses meaning the long range projectile ammo doesn't do squat?

Oh dear. Better start saving up for that rattle.

Art of Explosions
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#37 - 2013-05-12 04:58:00 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
rattle can fit 900+ ACTUAL DPS at 98km

People keep comparing what EFT says their DPS is compared to what they actually do in a real situation.

For example I recently explained to someone that a mach will not outdamage a rattle given a controlled scenario until the targets come significantly closer.

The example used a mach with standard fittings (4 faction gyros 3 TE) using barrage vs a rattle with 4 navy BCUs and 2 DDA

mach had a range of 8.5+104 while the rattle does it's ENTIRE dps at 98km using bouncers.

mach at 98k does about half of it's "EFT" dps, tiny bit more: around 650 of its 1108 potential.

only when targets come down below around 60km does its damage start matching the rattle's applied DPS

Given the fact that MANY missions spawn rats further than 60km away from you: the rattle is actually quicker at clearing than the mach in most situations

Note that this is with barrage and only viable for angels, what happens if you put both ships up against another faction?

oh-ho-ho the mach only has falloff bonuses meaning the long range projectile ammo doesn't do squat?

Oh dear. Better start saving up for that rattle.

I didn't compare EFT paper DPS, I personally fly the Rattlesnake (and several other BS's) and yes it has decent damage application out to a very decent range. But what I said is 100% correct that all of the other mentioned BS's can out DPS the Rattler under their own optimal circumstances. The Rattlesnake is deplorably slow compared to ALL other BS's and even it's lock time is bad. There is NO SINGLE SHIP that is perfect for all Missions, period. The Mach (and soon CNR) is/are the best "overall" Mission ships, the NDomi is a close 3rd, maybe 2nd even. None of them beat the Nightmare against Sansha/BR but it's so horrible against Angels you might as well fly a BC.

You also have your hypothetical Rattlesnake fitting wrong, it's (4) DDA's and (2) CN-BCU's. Even after the Odyssey Cruise buff it'll only add ~80 DPS to a max skilled T2 Cruise Rattlesnake to about 1100-1250 DPS (dep on Sentry type and within their opt range of 57km to who cares it's too far). Also Cruise missiles do not do their ENTIRE DPS on anything Cruiser and smaller at any range without TP's and/or ship bonus to sig radius/exp velocity, the Sentries do however (unless it's flying too fast). Even Gardes (highest Tracking) with (3) Navy Omnis can't hit Frigs going over 1km/s very well.

Angels/Serpentis tend to spawn close and 95% of the time orbit up your A*s so the Rattlers 98km DPS range is moot as it's lower at short range, by a HUGE margin, than the Mach. Don't get me wrong I still use my Rattlesnake when it's needed due to range, but I use other ships as well when the range is shorter. I tend to use the ship that's the most efficient for each Mission type, within reason. It's not hard to switch out ships and undock. I almost exclusively use the Snake/NDomi for Guristas when heavy Jamming is expected (Sentries FTW).


The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#38 - 2013-05-12 05:56:04 UTC
Quote:
rattle can fit 900+ ACTUAL DPS at 98km

People keep comparing what EFT says their DPS is compared to what they actually do in a real situation.


pass that blunt.

it would have to be putting out 1350 dps AND have zero traversal time to do that against a mere 50% resist. there is simply no way that is happening.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#39 - 2013-05-12 06:47:12 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
rattle can fit 900+ ACTUAL DPS at 98km

People keep comparing what EFT says their DPS is compared to what they actually do in a real situation.


pass that blunt.

it would have to be putting out 1350 dps AND have zero traversal time to do that against a mere 50% resist. there is simply no way that is happening.


He wins... Actually it's a good point, in the respect of ACTUAL/APPLIED DPS then we are ALL using paper DPS as a target/base number.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-05-12 21:59:45 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
rattle can fit 900+ ACTUAL DPS at 98km

People keep comparing what EFT says their DPS is compared to what they actually do in a real situation.


pass that blunt.

it would have to be putting out 1350 dps AND have zero traversal time to do that against a mere 50% resist. there is simply no way that is happening.


He wins... Actually it's a good point, in the respect of ACTUAL/APPLIED DPS then we are ALL using paper DPS as a target/base number.


there's no point in taking resists into account because then we will have to evaluate what fit/ship is best for each individual rat.

It's more sensible to treat them as a collective faction with general understanding to their weaknesses and strengths. When you're using the same damage type in your weapons the resist profile of the rat is moot since both ships are being reduced by the same percentage. Instead of having to work out what your "actual" dps after resists people use straight numbers instead since it's just easier to compare and it's a standard in referring to DPS anyway. Seems you are the one who is straying from the status quo.

Also I meant 4 ddas and 2 navy bcus, massive brainfart there.

And there are plenty of angels and serpentis missions where groups of rats are placed 70-100km away. Sure the initial spawn may be 20-50 away but seriously: who the hell wants to bother moving if you have the choice not to...?

Art of Explosions