Crime & Punishment

Myself and another decided to sit on a gate for legal targets - suspect flagged, criminal flagged and outlaw players - to make an interesting kill or 2.

I flew a T1 cruiser, my friend in a T1 logistics.

When a fight came through (an outlaw caracal) I engaged and called my friend to start repairs.

For a while the reps wouldn't land, and we discovered this was because his safeties were green and thus wasn't allowed to repair me. Now, I understand that a limited engagement will cause a suspect flag to outside interference, but my friend was trying to defend me against an outlaw. Why would concord punish the people attacking the outlaws?

Is this a bug? Oversight? Harshly intended feature? (and under what premise if intended. It must have a reason!)

Appreciate any insight.

Except being suspect flagged (bearing in mind, this is a low sec system - hence the outlaws casually flying around) IS a death sentence. We chose to lose the Moa rather than chance saving it or chance losing both in the fight we ended up with as enemy reinforcements arrived.

If the suspect flag wasn't there, the other ships would be less likely to engage the logi as the sentry guns could mean the loss of their ship.

Plus, he's hardly neutral if he's in my fleet AND corporation!

Harshly intended feature. If your friend does not want suspect flag he needs to do the following: (maybe works but not guarrenteed)

1. Friend Accept duel from you so that he has limited engagement on you.
2. Maybe also need to engage said red target so that he has limited engagement on you and your target.

Why would concord punish the people attacking the outlaws? Concord is not punishing him they are simply flagging him for interfering without being limited engaged to other target.


If you look at it from pirates point of view. You engage pirate so he can shoot back without gate guns, 3rd party repairs you but since they did not engage pirate the pirate cannot shot repper or gate guns fire on him. Since it is hard to tell exact circumstance each time and many have used the system to repair people at war with neutral reps, they just decided to suspect flag anyone who reps someone else in a limited engagement.

The only possible way out of that suspect flag is if you, friend and pirate all have limited engagement flags toward each other BEFORE you start repping. I cannot guarrentee that will work, but it might.

If you were trying to gank an outlaw I would assume you were in low sec. In that case Concord isn't there. You attacked him and your logi tried to butt in...that flags you to all outlaws so we may gather and laugh at you.

Thought you were pretty crafty and if he wanted to shoot the logi he would have to take gate guns?

I did not make the rule and while I understand your point, I also understand the point that it is not fair to the person you are shooting to not be able to shoot the repper. Would have made sense to me if the repper would have been placed as limited engagement to all parties currently tagged in limited engagement to the person being repped, but they made the rule as suspect.

EDIT: Also consider who the law is. It is the navy which does not allow low sec people in high sec without some difficulties. You are not the law so you should not have free reign to shoot. Case in point: Most wanted list in America, does not mean I can engage them at will, that is the laws job. If I do engage them, I still must answer to the law as to why I did engage.

@Vimsy Neutral logi used in wardecs and other high sec fights were a major issue (and tbh, the reluctance of others to engage/lack of others present makes that particular change modest in effect).

I wouldn't give two ***** if logi pilots got all the same flags as the person they are repping, it's the EXTRA flag that I have issue with. The logi ship is a neutral as my own ship when first engaging the outlaw!

@Kimo Sorry, but comparing the rules laid down by concord and the rules of irl is irrelevant. Just because someone steals a packet of crisps from a shop doesn't mean you are allowed to shoot them on sight for the next 15 minutes either. As it is, we DO have free reign to shoot on outlaws etc, but not to defend against them without "committing an offence".

learn to patch notes they are your friends.

This. Have the Logi aggress the target. Yes, he can shoot back, but then you avoid the suspect flag, something designed to prevent invincible neutral logis.

But let's pretend it's not a pile of Guardians; let's say it's a pile of Gnosises (Gnoses?). If they attack the outlaw as well, they don't get suspect flags -- correct? So in that situation all of the attackers are afforded CONCORD protection against everyone other than the "dude who is bleeding and out of breath." To me, it would seem to make more sense that the logi repping a lawful attacker simply becomes flagged to the pilots in that engagement only. So now the logi cannot dock back up, cannot use a gate, and can be attacked by the outlaw. But he cannot be attacked by anyone who happens to be passing by and sees a suspect flag on overview.

And to take it a step further, what happens if a 3rd party does warp in and attack the logi pilot (let's say we're in high sec now)? That would be a legal attack because the logi pilot is flagged suspect, so I'm assuming that if the DPS pilot turned their guns on the new aggressor they would get CONCORDed because they weren't involved in fight #2?

You misquoted there bro.

But note the classic argument about neutral logistics that has literally nothing to do with the logistics being neutral. Logistics being able to dock or jump was entirely unrelated to their neutrality and bringing logistics in mid way into a fight is also unrelated to neutrality, unless I'm mistaken and logging in, undocking or warping in at 50 was totally impossible for members of corporations that are at war.

Those complaints are about logistics in general and have nothing to do with neutral logistics because in combat they both functioned identically. The tactics and fleet compositions required to counter logistics of any kind were as effective against neutral logistics as non-neutral logistics. There's a reason I fly a Bhaalgorn and it's not because I like the paint job.

Just to recap let's go over the complaints made and you can see if you can spot one that applied to logistics that is neutral and not logistics that is not neutral:

- Logistics being able to jump and dock while repping
- Logistics entering the fight after the combat ships engage
- Can only be attacked by parties actually involved in the fight
- Waa guardians rep so much and I can't break them!

The only advantage gained by neutral logistics is their lack of presence in local, that is why people use neutral logistics. If your fleet could deal with 2 in corp guardians it would be able to deal with 2 neutral guardians just as easily. If you want to make an argument about how neutral logistics was a problem that's fine, we can have a conversation about that, but please make it based on what the effect of logistics being neutral actually is, rather than just you trying to pin blame for your losses on something other than your own (clearly substantial) ineptitude.

But seriously. Maybe if you didn't want your neutral logistics to get suspect flagged you should have been paying attetion when us people who know what the hell we are talking about when it comes to PVP in highsec were explaining why that would have consequences people wouldn't like prior to crimewatch 2.0 being implemented.