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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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Anariasis
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1061 - 2013-05-03 23:14:30 UTC
I don't have the time to read all 1000+ postings in this thread, so forgive me if this has been said several times before:

Many people, including myself, live in wormholes. We do fly a lot of carriers there, but we never ever use their jump-drive. We can't even use their jump drive, even if we wanted to. Most of the people I know, do not even use their carriers jump-drive when they buy it. You just buy one in the low/0.0 system your wormhole happens to be in, and if you dont find any on the market there you'll find one a couple days later. Or you just build inside ur wormhole.
Adding all those jump-drive skills to the carrier prerequisites is just adding weeks of skilltime to have a function you cannot use. Why?
(Yes I know, we dont have to train the BS skill to V anymore then, but still, BS V is a usefull skill, jump drive operation etc. is totally wasted time)
Jack Ogeko
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1062 - 2013-05-04 11:22:12 UTC
you have no chance for this i supose, they usualy only make people angry and make their miserable life more harder :)

i have question abaut jump frighters, after industrail and frighters skil rebalancing, what we see in jump frighter skils requrements? racial industrial 5 or avdenced space ship comand 5 and racial industrial 3 ? or somting else?
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1063 - 2013-05-04 22:39:30 UTC
Why are you changing skill prerequisites instead of adding skills to ship requirements? This way you can achieve the same time to fly a ship but in more flexible way. Like making every command ship require its racial bonus instead of command ship skill requiring all the bonuses.

I think skill prerequisites should be as little as possible so nobody would argue that they make sense. Also this will make pilot's life easier because of more freedom in skill training order.
Stan Blake
Doshirak Ltd.
#1064 - 2013-05-08 14:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Stan Blake
Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:

As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*2*3=1865520 SP
However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*6*4=7462080 SP

It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP
More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!

Where am I wrong?
Ezio Sotken
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1065 - 2013-05-08 16:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezio Sotken
Stan Blake wrote:
Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:

As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*2*3=1865520 SP
However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*6*4=7462080 SP

It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP
More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!

Where am I wrong?


You are counting all 4 skills for destroyers and battlecruisers. If you think of it this way

You have
BC V
DS V

The refund should give 3x the sp per skill.

Look at it this way
On June 4 , they remove the default battlecruiser skill and credits the sp total into your allocation pool. Then they credit your character the Skill Points needed to get the other 3 battlecruiser skills to lvl 5 . This gives you all the sp for all. 4 skills to get them to level 5 ( unless its going to be done automatically, unsure)

Same should be for the destroyer skill.

This explanation makes sense to me, but if I missed something, please say so.
Stan Blake
Doshirak Ltd.
#1066 - 2013-05-08 18:52:57 UTC
Hey, now it really makes sense. It is still more than 6.2 mil SP (around 7.5) but far from 10 mil=)
Thanks for ur view of the matter)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1067 - 2013-05-08 19:13:57 UTC
Stan Blake wrote:
Hey, now it really makes sense. It is still more than 6.2 mil SP (around 7.5) but far from 10 mil=)
Thanks for ur view of the matter)

Your math is off. The total SP in a rank 1 skill is 256k @ lvl 5. The amount you trained in lvl's 1-4 is already counted towards that, it is not another 256K added on after lvl 4. Same for the prior levels.
Stan Blake
Doshirak Ltd.
#1068 - 2013-05-08 19:22:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Stan Blake wrote:
Hey, now it really makes sense. It is still more than 6.2 mil SP (around 7.5) but far from 10 mil=)
Thanks for ur view of the matter)

Your math is off. The total SP in a rank 1 skill is 256k @ lvl 5. The amount you trained in lvl's 1-4 is already counted towards that, it is not another 256K added on after lvl 4. Same for the prior levels.

Great dude! Now u've clarified it all to me! o7
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1069 - 2013-05-08 19:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Stan Blake wrote:
Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:

As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*2*3=1865520 SP
However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*6*4=7462080 SP

It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP
More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!

Where am I wrong?

It doesn't work that way. You only get free unallocated SP if you have BC or destroyers with no corresponding frigate/cruiser, and then you only get the single value of the skill, not 4x that skill.

Since you have a frigate skill, you won't get any SP for the "other 3 racial destroyers." You'll get Minmatar Destroyer at level 5, and nothing else.

For BCs, you don't get "4 racial battlecruiser SP"--you just get the SP refunded for the single battlecruiser skill you've already trained.

You are going to be severely disappointed when Odyssey drops, and I'm going to laugh at you.

Edit: from the dev blog:
Quote:
If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
Ezio Sotken
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1070 - 2013-05-08 20:14:20 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Stan Blake wrote:
Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:

As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*2*3=1865520 SP
However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*6*4=7462080 SP

It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP
More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!

Where am I wrong?

It doesn't work that way. You only get free unallocated SP if you have BC or destroyers with no corresponding frigate/cruiser, and then you only get the single value of the skill, not 4x that skill.

Since you have a frigate skill, you won't get any SP for the "other 3 racial destroyers." You'll get Minmatar Destroyer at level 5, and nothing else.

For BCs, you don't get "4 racial battlecruiser SP"--you just get the SP refunded for the single battlecruiser skill you've already trained.

You are going to be severely disappointed when Odyssey drops, and I'm going to laugh at you.

Edit: from the dev blog:
Quote:
If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.


Ok, I am confused here. I have all racial frigate and cruiser skills to at least 4 . Does the above apply in my case?
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1071 - 2013-05-08 21:02:47 UTC
Ezio Sotken wrote:

Ok, I am confused here. I have all racial frigate and cruiser skills to at least 4 . Does the above apply in my case?

You will get all racial destroyer and BC skills to whatever level you currently have destroyers and BC at, if you have all racial frigate and cruiser skills to 3 or more.

You don't get free SP to spend how you please. You get the skills trained directly. If you don't qualify for all skills, you only get the skills you qualify for. If you qualify for no skills, you get "free" SP as a refund only of what you've already trained, not of what you could've gotten if you'd planned better.
Stan Blake
Doshirak Ltd.
#1072 - 2013-05-09 11:40:23 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Stan Blake wrote:
Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:

As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*2*3=1865520 SP
However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*6*4=7462080 SP

It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP
More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!

Where am I wrong?

It doesn't work that way. You only get free unallocated SP if you have BC or destroyers with no corresponding frigate/cruiser, and then you only get the single value of the skill, not 4x that skill.

Since you have a frigate skill, you won't get any SP for the "other 3 racial destroyers." You'll get Minmatar Destroyer at level 5, and nothing else.

For BCs, you don't get "4 racial battlecruiser SP"--you just get the SP refunded for the single battlecruiser skill you've already trained.

You are going to be severely disappointed when Odyssey drops, and I'm going to laugh at you.

Edit: from the dev blog:
Quote:
If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.

Ur gonna laugh at me?! C'mon man!.. And now read my lips!
Again, from the same dev blog: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". Additional, i.e. much more than u've spent training. As simple as that. And with all the less emotional and more informative comments above, it really makes sense. 256000*2*4*3=6144000 SP.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1073 - 2013-05-09 11:48:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Stan Blake wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
Stan Blake wrote:
Another one of the millions of questions about the SP refund.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". I did some calculations and came up with this:

As is known, training a rank 1 skill to 5 is: 250+1415+8000+45255+256000=310920 SP. Destoyers is a rank 2 skill (x2), Battlecruisers is rank 6 (x6). Let's take my Minmatar toon with Minmatar Frigate 4, Destroyers 5 and Battlecruisers 5. He meets the prerequisite for the Minmatar Destroyer, but the SP for the other 3 racial destroyers will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*2*3=1865520 SP
However, he has no racial cruisers trained at all, i.e all the 4 racial battlecruiser SP will be moved into the free allocation pool:
310920*6*4=7462080 SP

It follows that on June 4 he will get 1865520+7462080=9327600 SP
More than that, on a new-born character it is possible to leave the frigate skill at 2 and thus get the full Destroyer refund. i.e another 310920*2=621840 SP, the free allocation pool totaling to 9949440 - almost 10 million SP!

Where am I wrong?

It doesn't work that way. You only get free unallocated SP if you have BC or destroyers with no corresponding frigate/cruiser, and then you only get the single value of the skill, not 4x that skill.

Since you have a frigate skill, you won't get any SP for the "other 3 racial destroyers." You'll get Minmatar Destroyer at level 5, and nothing else.

For BCs, you don't get "4 racial battlecruiser SP"--you just get the SP refunded for the single battlecruiser skill you've already trained.

You are going to be severely disappointed when Odyssey drops, and I'm going to laugh at you.

Edit: from the dev blog:
Quote:
If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.

Ur gonna laugh at me?! C'mon man!.. And now read my lips!
Again, from the same dev blog: " If you have Destroyer and Battlecruiser 5 trained, you should account for approximately 6.2 additional million skill points". Additional, i.e. much more than u've spent training. As simple as that. And with all the less emotional and more informative comments above, it really makes sense. 256000*2*4*3=6144000 SP.


You get only Destroyers V turned into Minmatar Destroyer V and BC V reimbursed as freely allocatable SP. One time.

.
Stan Blake
Doshirak Ltd.
#1074 - 2013-05-09 14:17:08 UTC
Hm... With all these discouraging eye-opening comments I still wonder where these 6 mil SP come from.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1075 - 2013-05-09 14:42:59 UTC
That sentence in the dev blog is unclear- it means if you can fly all four dessies and four BCs at level V, the skill change results in your character sheet having 8 new skills, and two old skills removed.

Compared to current SP, this means about 6.2 mil SP.



.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1076 - 2013-05-09 20:12:10 UTC
Why would anyone ever use anything but the Iteron V?

At least with old system you had the best hauler for least training = amarr, best hauler for a lot of training = iteron mk5. Now you just have Itty V king.

Also why would you require every kind of Warfare spec for Command ships and not just say Amarr = Armored and Skirmish, when they are not even bonused for the other two.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1077 - 2013-05-09 20:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Stan Blake wrote:
Hm... With all these discouraging eye-opening comments I still wonder where these 6 mil SP come from.

That number is the maximum possible SP increase assuming the following skills are trained:
Battlecruiser 5
Destroyer 5
All racial frigates at 4 (only 3 is needed for the destroyer refund, but 4 to inject the cruiser skills)
All racial cruisers at 3

Less than that will receive a lower SP increase or none at all.
Basic math for determining SP bloat if you have trained for the affected ships:
(Number of races you fly - 1)*(Amount of SP you have in Destroyers + Battlecruisers)
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1078 - 2013-05-09 20:24:08 UTC
The 6mil SP is the approximate additional total SP your character will have after the split if you received all of the new racial BC/destroyer skills at 5.

You don't get unallocated SP, you get the skills directly. That's what the warning was about--make sure your clone supports that much extra, or you might have a nasty surprise later.
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1079 - 2013-05-13 01:48:20 UTC
At fanfest CCP announced their intention to re-group skills in to more intuitive and therefore useable categoriese, +1 for this, it's a good thing for new players.

However I was a little annoyed by the name of the skill group Starship Piloting which is a combination of the old groups Spaceship Command and Subsystems.

Combine the categories, that makes sense but please just leave it as Spaceship Command.

In any case Starship Piloting is basically an exact synonym for Spaceship Command: and a far less classy and appropriate one at that in my opinion.
Aesthetics and personal taste aside I feel strongly that a capsuleer does MUCH more than simply pilot his ship and so commander is a more appropriate title.

The changes are great but please keep the needless. hairsplitting ones to a minimum

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1080 - 2013-05-13 05:06:51 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
Roime wrote:
In the same way as mining ships and other tiericeded classes - some will have more tank, some more cargo, some more agile etc.

Last I heard, there were only 3 mining barges and a clear conflicting need to choose between survivability or ore hold, with a viable compromise of the two, but I'm no miner.

There are 12 Industrial ships all filling the same basic need and the only real choices are max cargohold or max GTFO. This is a vital early ship for a new player and shows one of the depth of the game. That research and intelligent selection, rewards in the long run. CCP have just dumbed it all down. Are they going to scrap the current 12 industrials and replace them with 2 or 3 ORE Industrials?


You sure?

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We're changing the skill requirements for Industrials as with all other ships for Odyssey.


However, the roles / attributes themselves will have to stay as they are for a while longer - we initially planed for them to go in the expansion as well, but they slipped out due to lack of time.

Tech1 Industrial overhaul has a high priority on our balanc-o-meter though - once battleships are updated, they'll be the last tech1 sub-capital hulls that need to go through the Tiericide fires.

Plans we have for them so far is to have the same kind of treatment than we've done with the Mining Barges. Have one Industrial variation with good mobility, low EHP and low cargo for quickly moving things around, another with low mobility, low EHP and high cargo for bulk transport and the last one with good defenses but poor mobility / cargo to compensate.

Which of course poses a problem with Gallente industrials and their 5 variations - as CCP Fozzie keeps saying all the time, if all else fail we'll shuffle the last two unused Iteron variations to have a dedicated bay for Spiced Wine and Exoctic Dancers


src: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=234648&find=unread

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