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Nullsec hunter-killers, please enlighten me

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Asmodai Xodai
#41 - 2013-05-09 17:00:32 UTC
Quote:
For one, "EVE has meaningful loss" and "don't fly anything you can't afford to lose" create an obvious conflict. If you only fly that which you can afford to lose, no loss you sustain will ever be meaningful. Which in turn makes the whole "ship loss on death" a totally meaningless gesture. Like you yourself just pointed out, the entire consequence of that ship's loss was just a few mouse clicks, that's all.


Yeah, I guess that was my point in a nutshell.

I posted because I thought it was possible people would say they cause rival corporations serious issues in engaging in this sort of activity, by killing ships those corps couldn't afford to lose, or by entirely locking down ratting anoms so as to deny those corps income, etc. But nobody said anything like that, so....
Lady Areola Fappington
#42 - 2013-05-09 17:02:08 UTC
Around my hometown, we got this saying: "Whatever helps you sleep at night." OP is a prime example of this.


Also, PROTIP: Anything you say "These aren't tears", they are. Epic, delicious tears.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Othran
Route One
#43 - 2013-05-09 17:04:26 UTC
The simple answer is people get different things out of Eve.

I like the PvP/market trading side of it; frankly can't be arsed with npc content, nor am I into manufacturing/research/etc, although I have done them in the past.

In short if what I'm doing doesn't interact directly with another player then I'm not that interested in doing it. Others obviously like their npc stuff.

Oh and as to why I'd want to kill you - because you're there and killing you may lead to a better fight about sums it up.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#44 - 2013-05-09 17:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Asmodai Xodai wrote:


Now, I see less of a point in activities which don't seem to have any 'rational' basis to them by the way I reckon such things, which is why I asked. For instance, I wouldn't spend hours hunting down and killing peoples' ratting ships unless I was somehow coming out better in one way or the other than my enemy. But that's just me. As such, I was curious as to why someone else would do it. I thought there might be something I was missing. But from the responses, that doesn't seem to be the case. People do this because they think it is 'fun' or whatever. And that's fine - everybody should play the game however they like.

For me personally, this kind of activity would be 'fun' if I knew I was causing my enemy some kind of net loss over my own - let's say monetary, but it could also be strategic or something else. But it isn't fun for me when I realize that I am not only not causing my enemy loss, I am actually causing myself more loss than him by foregoing more productive moneymaking (or other) opportunities myself.


This is why you should stay well away from Exploration in EVE.

Like popping ratters, in exploration you don't know what you got till you got it. For all the hunters knew, your drake could have been officer fit, rolling the dice to kill you is totally reasonable even by your own warped idea of reason.
Quote:

I might play someone in a game of chess. That person is of course allowed to play the game however he wishes, and he should do just that. Perhaps he loves taking pawns, and would sacrifice his queen just to do that. Fine. I still might raise an eyebrow though, and ask him why he is doing that.


doing what you describe above would be weird (as in outside the norms of regular chess playing conduct).

But what you are questioning is NORMAL behavior in a video game about space ships and guns.

Which brings me to the overall point, like a lot of General Discussion posters, It's YOU that is "skewed" or different, not the behavior of others you struggle to understand. EVE players have been hunting ratters in null sec since 2003, many thousands upon thousands of game players have been involved in video game pvp for the simple sake of pvp since PONG.
Amielle Ozran
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-05-09 17:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Amielle Ozran
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Sorry for your loss but I would guess you learned from it. You let your greed override your better judment. This was a cheap lesson that would best not be forgoten with better fitted ships.


Nah, I understand your sentiment, but really it wasn't a loss - you needn't feel sorry.

Don't bother trying to shake the accusations people are making of you being probably angry over the event.

You approached this topic in the same format as a tearful player whining about how they were griefed and while you decline this is the case for you, you still treated it this way.

If you truly did not care that you lost your ship, then do not bring it up. Rather, you should have posted something like asking fellow players here for their opinions by saying something along the lines of, "Do you need to have something to gain to justify killing them?"

At that point, players would be focusing on a discussion over whether they pirate/gank only for profit, or for the raw fun of killing another player, rather than focusing on the fact that you lost the ship. Because you brought your lost ship up, it eclipses the entire rest of the thread.

Edit: For future reference, any time you start a sentence that has the format of "I'm not trying to X, but Y," the only part of the sentence that anyone will read is Y.

Examples:
"I'm not trying to offend you, but..."
"I'm not racist, but..."
"I'm not disappointed in you, but..."

The only thing we get out of the phrase at the beginning of the sentence is that we understand that you have cognitive dissonance over it. So when you say, "I'm not mad, but....", all we get out of it is that you are mad, but you don't want to admit it.
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#46 - 2013-05-09 17:08:31 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Why do these guys engage in this sort of activity? They are losing far more in time and energy than I'm losing in time, energy, or money. My clone spawned one jump away. It just took a couple of clicks to set up another clone, stick in more el 'cheapo implants, collect my insurance payment, and jump into another waiting ship. Also, I only had 110,000 ISK bounty on me, which is a joke.


Okay. A lot of posters are assuming you are QQing over the loss. I'm going to be different and assume you're not. I regularly hunt for black ops fleets both on this toon and alts. There are a lot of reasons I'd attack a lone drake.

1) Its a slow night. My fleet wants kills. A lone drake might be the only thing I've come across and I need a kill to keep everyone from getting bored enough to drop fleet. I've dropped 15 people on a Corax before because of this.

2) A drake might not be just a drake. I might keep from calling in my drop for some time if I think you have friends coming. I caught a velator at a gate once and that escalated into a Tengu, a Naga, a Drake, a Wolf, and a stiletto. That was a very nice drop with no losses on my side.

3) I have no idea how your drake is fit. Faction launchers? I've seen them on drakes. Faction invulns? Deadspace mods? People overfit their ships all the time. My fleet clears wrecks and the loot helps with SRP and fuel.

4) I might not like the people you hang out with or you are known to have good relations with someone I'm hostile to. Thats good enough reason for me to harass your ratters.

Basically there are a lot of reasons a PVP gang might engage you regardless of what you are flying. Even Cyno ships. Always pop cyno ship wrecks to make sure they don't get the cyno back. You never know when its their last one... There are more reasons for things than you might think at first glance.



Every day I'm wafflin!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#47 - 2013-05-09 17:14:13 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Quote:
For one, "EVE has meaningful loss" and "don't fly anything you can't afford to lose" create an obvious conflict. If you only fly that which you can afford to lose, no loss you sustain will ever be meaningful. Which in turn makes the whole "ship loss on death" a totally meaningless gesture. Like you yourself just pointed out, the entire consequence of that ship's loss was just a few mouse clicks, that's all.


Yeah, I guess that was my point in a nutshell.

I posted because I thought it was possible people would say they cause rival corporations serious issues in engaging in this sort of activity, by killing ships those corps couldn't afford to lose, or by entirely locking down ratting anoms so as to deny those corps income, etc. But nobody said anything like that, so....



They did all that to you. The minutes you were 1 system over getting a new ship, you weren't ratting.

But again that's moot. ultimately your problem is that you can't understand why people (in a video game with ships and guns) would do something you wouldn't. It's a very limited way to look at the world (and weak).



I have an in-game friend like you. He makes a LOT of isk mining with mutiple accounts and building stuff in high sec to sell along with other industrial activities. He uses the isk he makes to plex his accounts and pvp in null and faction war when he feels like.

I make my isk by combat pve content (incursions, null exploration/anoms/lvl 5 missions in low sec etc etc).

I make less isk than he does whole spending more time doing what i do and he doesn't understand it at all. What he doesn't get is that I LIKE COMBAT PVE, getting an anom to escalate or a x-type drop or something like that is fun to me, making new "ratting doctrines" is fun to me. So even though I make "slower" isk than him, doing what he does would bore me to death so i don't.

Like I said, you remind me a lot of him because he needs a "real reason" to do something and he doesn't get that everyone is different.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#48 - 2013-05-09 17:18:09 UTC
Amielle Ozran wrote:
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Sorry for your loss but I would guess you learned from it. You let your greed override your better judment. This was a cheap lesson that would best not be forgoten with better fitted ships.


Nah, I understand your sentiment, but really it wasn't a loss - you needn't feel sorry.

Don't bother trying to shake the accusations people are making of you being probably angry over the event.

You approached this topic in the same format as a tearful player whining about how they were griefed and while you decline this is the case for you, you still treated it this way.

If you truly did not care that you lost your ship, then do not bring it up. Rather, you should have posted something like asking fellow players here for their opinions by saying something along the lines of, "Do you need to have something to gain to justify killing them?"

At that point, players would be focusing on a discussion over whether they pirate/gank only for profit, or for the raw fun of killing another player, rather than focusing on the fact that you lost the ship. Because you brought your lost ship up, it eclipses the entire rest of the thread.

Edit: For future reference, any time you start a sentence that has the format of "I'm not trying to X, but Y," the only part of the sentence that anyone will read is Y.

Examples:
"I'm not trying to offend you, but..."
"I'm not racist, but..."
"I'm not disappointed in you, but..."

The only thing we get out of the phrase at the beginning of the sentence is that we understand that you have cognitive dissonance over it. So when you say, "I'm not mad, but....", all we get out of it is that you are mad, but you don't want to admit it.


Is your last name Lawrence, because I swear your post sounds word for word like a lecture from my college psych professor 15 years ago lol.

Well said btw.
Augustine Artrald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-05-09 17:23:55 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:

Why do these guys engage in this sort of activity?


I wouldn't worry too much about it. By posting here, you are catering to those who seek enjoyment through the suffering of others. Just play and enjoy the game your own way. Ignore those who would seek to impede your progress for no real gain, as you revel in superiority that you've reached a moral competence far greater than they.
Sishen Gzi
Hellion Support Services
#50 - 2013-05-09 17:26:24 UTC
The game designers for Eve have stated repeatedly that their goal is to provide us with good fights while we hang out with our friends. You can get good fights through the market or through space ship combat or through both. You can not get good fights from rats or from asteroids or cosmic signatures, those are provided by the game designers to give us a way to replace our ships and find people to have good fights with. You are allowed to play this however you like. If you are alone and fighting rats for any reason other then to support your pvp activities, then by design you are playing the game wrong.
Amielle Ozran
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-05-09 17:30:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Is your last name Lawrence, because I swear your post sounds word for word like a lecture from my college psych professor 15 years ago lol.

Well said btw.

Haha no, I'm only 23 and still flaking my way through college and in no rush.

Anyway, to directly address what the OP intended to discuss, pirating is what got me interested in this game. I am still new and inexperienced, but pirating is, as said before, what I look to get into. If I had found that pirating actually was a net loss even if you were good at it, I would still be interested in it.

If I got a target who went on and on about how "not mad" he was, I would get enjoyment out of it in the same way that a middle schooler laughs when their peers comment on how they aren't gay. Because you (OP) feel the need to repeat ad nauseum that you aren't mad, you make the basic implication that you care if I know that you are mad. You are showing some minor degree of vanity and you are letting me know that my opinion of you as a person matters to you. And that is empowering. And empowerment feels good.

If you are mad, admit it, it serves you no good to deny it.
If you are not mad, drop the subject and focus on the discussion at hand. You can clarify that you aren't mad once, but after that, you empower the people around you, and they will continue to push it.
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#52 - 2013-05-09 17:30:58 UTC
You did actually take a "net loss over their own" whether you want to face this reality or not. You can keep acting like you wake up in the morning and **** drakes, but please stop stating that you literally lost nothing because everyone knows how much bull**** that is.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#53 - 2013-05-09 17:34:47 UTC

As a leader in a Nullsec Hunter-killer Alliance, I can tell you exactly why we do this:

1.) The thrill of the hunt: There is quite a lot of enjoyment in taking down a target, and many nullsec ratters do fit bling on their ship.

2.) To get a fight: When you build a reputation of ganking ratters in the area, some people form up a response gang and attack us, turning the whole "cat-n-mouse" game in reverse. This is also very enjoyable.

3.) Because hours of hunting Players is better than spending hours sitting on a bubble or hours shooting red crosses. There is a much bigger sense of the "unknown", as you never know what the next system contains!
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#54 - 2013-05-09 17:36:57 UTC
I am not sure what the OP is getting at.

But then I am not sure why the OP should be sniped at.


But there is one thing that stands out for me.


The OP certainly IS in null, and making it out there, and taking the risk of being there, and some losses too.


That's got to account for something.

So his "tears" if they are to be called that really don't measure up to being the nourishing sort. They are unlike the kind of tears you'd expect from someone who was AFK in Jita with a T1 indy fill of T2 modules coming into the forums demanding that the entire game changes for them. Or those of the people who sell out to a kind of Stockholm syndrome convincing themselves that stupid ship loss to dumb tactics is normal and come into these forums demanding the game changes so that hapless noobs are funneled into their gate camp somehow.

THOSE are tears.

These? Probably not. But these forums are the last place to attempt any understanding of an existential moment.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#55 - 2013-05-09 17:38:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarod Garamonde
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
You are welcome to find my latest ship loss and subsequent podding (a drake, within the last hour as of this posting). For those who won't bother (and I recommend you don't, as it isn't particularly interesting or worth it), I'll recount it here.

The story is quite standard, unremarkable, and boring. I was doing the standard ratting of anomalies in nullsec, using a drake. Had local chat pulled up, of course. Was working down the final battleship when a couple of hostiles appeared in local chat. I noticed it instantly, but was also close to getting the kill on the final rat battleship. Decided to risk finishing off the rat, as it was only going to be another 10 seconds or so before it was dead. Hostile then appeared in anomaly, at what I considered to be fairly far away (more than 20km). I instantly clicked "warp out" to the nearest station (already had the tab pulled up), and the hostile began burning towards me as fast as he could. I almost made it out - in fact the ship was already "warping" and the bar was over the 75% needed to go into warp. Alas, he closed the distance really fast and managed to hit me with a warp disruptor, dropping me out of warp. He had a couple of buddies who then warped in, and long story short, I was dead.

Again, not particularly interesting or remarkable at all, and completely "standard." So I will continue on to the "lead-in" to my question.

I already know the third rule of Eve Online well: you do not fly a ship you can't afford to lose (the first two rules being "you do not talk about Eve Online," and "you do not talk about Eve Online"). Well I can assure you, the drake was quite affordable for me to lose. It was insured with the best contract available, and the payout pretty much covered the entire loss, give or take. There were no particularly expensive modules lost on it. I lost a couple of shield extender ii's, but I have a hanger full of them so no biggie. I lost 6 arbalest hams, but through ratting have a whole hanger full of those as well. In fact, this ship was so expendable to lose that I won't even replace it.

As far as implants go, you will notice that I lost cheap ones - like the tier 1 implants. I planned to lose these, which is why I bought them, and why I was using them. In fact, I have a hanger full of cheapo replacements for all of them. Now, I also have expensive implants, but I won't use those until I am in a phase where my clone won't be at risk at all. Until then, when I get podded, I'll just plug in more el 'cheapo implants, which I already have a hanger full of.

The point is, I essentially lost nothing in this engagement: ship was totally expendable, implants were totally expendable, and my clone costs substantially less than a million ISK to replace. This leads me to my question below.

Why do these guys engage in this sort of activity? They are losing far more in time and energy than I'm losing in time, energy, or money. My clone spawned one jump away. It just took a couple of clicks to set up another clone, stick in more el 'cheapo implants, collect my insurance payment, and jump into another waiting ship. Also, I only had 110,000 ISK bounty on me, which is a joke.

If you engage in this sort of activity, I'm curious. Pray tell. What's the payoff, or benefit to you, to expend the time and energy to do this? Do you generally run across people who break the third rule of Eve Online, and fly in ships that they can't afford to lose? Do you generally find people with huge bounties on their heads, and do these bounties give you a better return than doing something else like ratting anoms? These are honest questions, by the way.

No, these aren't tears. No, I don't want anything changed or nerfed in the game. Yes, please continue to play the game as you wish to play it. I'm just curious about an activity which seems to have no benefit or return on investment from my perspective. Since I wouldn't really engage in anything that doesn't have such a return, I'm curious why others do. I'm guessing there is something I'm missing, therefore I'd like to know what it is.



I honestly thought this thread was going to be full of tears and rage. Since it wasn't, I shall refrain from making fun of you.

Why do we do this? Because this is what makes us enjoy EVE. Shooting rats and running missions is boring. Hunting down other players and fighting a human opponent is a lot more of a challenge, and thus, more fun. for the player pirate.
I have just as much fun losing a ship as I do killing another player... it's kinda like racing. I bring my machine to a contest, and if I lose, it's either because I set something up wrong, or the other guy had more skill than me, so I have to go back to the lab, and re-invent my fit and tactics, thus I get better. If I win, I get bragging rights.

At least when it's me that locks you down, you know I'm going to be civil and cordial about it. Do try to return the favor... please understand that I hold my enemies in the highest regard.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#56 - 2013-05-09 17:41:22 UTC
Thrill of the hunt.

Who needs more reasons.

.
Asmodai Xodai
#57 - 2013-05-09 18:07:20 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

As a leader in a Nullsec Hunter-killer Alliance, I can tell you exactly why we do this:

1.) The thrill of the hunt: There is quite a lot of enjoyment in taking down a target, and many nullsec ratters do fit bling on their ship.

2.) To get a fight: When you build a reputation of ganking ratters in the area, some people form up a response gang and attack us, turning the whole "cat-n-mouse" game in reverse. This is also very enjoyable.

3.) Because hours of hunting Players is better than spending hours sitting on a bubble or hours shooting red crosses. There is a much bigger sense of the "unknown", as you never know what the next system contains!


Sounds reasonable. You seem to suggest that this kind of thing might end up generating PvP content of a little more 'substance' on down the line (like, if the guy goes and gets his corp-mates to assist in hunting you down or whatever).

And I guess folks can fit out their ratting ships with bling. I don't personally, but I guess some do. I do personally know people who rat in high-end tengus, but they also aren't the sort you are going to easily be able to take out (they will warp out instantly instead of trying to get that last battleship kill - either that or they will turn you into the hunted vs. the hunter if you try to go after them).
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#58 - 2013-05-09 18:10:02 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

As a leader in a Nullsec Hunter-killer Alliance, I can tell you exactly why we do this:

1.) The thrill of the hunt: There is quite a lot of enjoyment in taking down a target, and many nullsec ratters do fit bling on their ship.

2.) To get a fight: When you build a reputation of ganking ratters in the area, some people form up a response gang and attack us, turning the whole "cat-n-mouse" game in reverse. This is also very enjoyable.

3.) Because hours of hunting Players is better than spending hours sitting on a bubble or hours shooting red crosses. There is a much bigger sense of the "unknown", as you never know what the next system contains!


Sounds reasonable. You seem to suggest that this kind of thing might end up generating PvP content of a little more 'substance' on down the line (like, if the guy goes and gets his corp-mates to assist in hunting you down or whatever).

And I guess folks can fit out their ratting ships with bling. I don't personally, but I guess some do. I do personally know people who rat in high-end tengus, but they also aren't the sort you are going to easily be able to take out (they will warp out instantly instead of trying to get that last battleship kill - either that or they will turn you into the hunted vs. the hunter if you try to go after them).


I like being hunted, just as much as I like to hunt.

I'm also the type of guy that rats in a PvP capable ship, and often look forward to a fight when a hostile enters system.

I've had many excellent PvP fights develop from hunting ratters, as it's one of the best way to develop organic small gang PvP content.
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#59 - 2013-05-09 18:23:13 UTC
Why do people hunt? It is certainly not profitable, right? And usually it is not about meat either - it is for the hunt itself.
Hunting people in EVE is quite like it; grabbing pod, expensive kill and "tears" is an added bonus, basically meaning that hunt went especially well
and with all due respect - if you didn't care at all, you won't be on this forum, you would just fly back to your station, buy another drake and go on with your ratting, so I would say this hunt went quite well Twisted
Asmodai Xodai
#60 - 2013-05-09 18:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
Jenn aSide wrote:
But again that's moot. ultimately your problem is that you can't understand why people (in a video game with ships and guns) would do something you wouldn't. It's a very limited way to look at the world (and weak).


Not really sure what your reading-comprehension issue is, but I already responded here several times (to others) that I could understand why people would do something I wouldn't. I just wanted to know what the reason was (if any), as it might be a reason I hadn't considered.

Look, you seem to be overflowing with troll, hate, etc. towards me. And you seem to be pretty overflowing with conviction over defending this style of gameplay (not that it needed 'defending' per se, as I don't believe I attacked it), and pretty overflowing with disdain towards my personal playstyle or outlook towards the game.

Fine - I'm down with it. Let me help you play the game the way you like, exercise your demons, whatever. I will be at system T-GCGL ratting (where this very incident occured, assuming the kill report didn't contain such info). It is somewhat north of Jita - easy to find. If you like this style of gameplay so much, if you believe it to be a highly productive and/or fun use of game-time, or if you believe it puts you so far ahead while simultaneously putting me so far behind, or if you believe it causes me 'tears' and you derive enjoyment from that, etc. come on down.

Now, I won't be ratting in the system 24/7, as I have other things to do today. But I can 100% guarantee that I will be ratting there sometime today between now and when I crash tonight - probably intermittently. And I can 100% guarantee to be ratting there at points in the future when I need ISK (unless I find a more profitable activity, which won't occur anytime soon).

Bottom line, it should be quite easy for you to catch me there, should you feel so inclined, because I WILL be there. And I promise not to take any special precautions just for you, or give you any special consideration (hell, just use an alt if you are worried about that). You will be just another hostile in the system to me. If you are lucky, you can actually catch me ratting in some kind of battlecruiser, and blow it sky high. If you aren't quite as lucky, I will warp away in time, but even that isn't all bad because you can blockade me into the station and I can't undock with you being there.

As for blockading me in, I can assure you that not many of my corpmates or alliance members use this system, so you don't have to worry about that. Now, one jump over at a system starting with the letters TVN, that system is HEAVILY patrolled and defended by my corpmates and alliance members, so don't do anything except pass through that area. But the system I just specified above should be fine. Most of the time, I'm the only guy in the system. Other times, there are one or two others, but that shouldn't deter an elite PvP'er like yourself.

I'll even make you a deal. Since you like noobships so much, I'll even promise to undock in one and let you kill me once or twice. So basically I'm guaranteeing that you can kill me. You can post the kill here, laugh it up, talk about how bad I suck, talk about how many tears you are jerking out of me, yadda yadda.

You really have nothing to lose, as far as I can tell.

EDIT: I absolutely WON'T call over corpmates to help me, unblockade me, etc. Why? Because I'll actually consider tying you up to be a productive use of my game time. In other words, I'll put my money where my mouth is and wager that you'll lose more in time, energy, and money going after me than I'll lose. In other words, in my mind I'll be 'winning.' Since in your mind you will also be 'winning,' it's a win/win as far as I'm concerned.