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Are there any deaf players out there?

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Ovv Topik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2013-05-08 12:14:37 UTC
Excellent topic.

I thought it worth adding for the benefit of deaf people from outside our community who may find this thread, that there is a ton of content within the universe that doesnt even need voice comms at all.

In Factional warfare for example, solo pvp is a very social community activity that is always text based.

I have to avoid voice comms most of the time due to my wife and daughter sleeping while i play, and without fail waking them if I try to fleet up.

So this is the perfect activity for me as I don't want to play in isolation, and can manage fine with Local and Militia chat channels.

There are always fleets and corp activities going on, but there is never a shortage of text only players to interact with.

Props to everyone looking for solutions so that this isnt the only option for deaf players though.

"Nicknack, I'm in a shoe in space, on my computer, in my house, with a cup of coffee, in't that something." - Fly Safe PopPaddi. o7

Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#62 - 2013-05-08 12:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
I am downloading this now to try out, does it have an overlay that will appear in game? or do you have to tab out / play in windowed mode?

*edit Ditto came with a bunch of malware, careful with that download if you want to try it.
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
#63 - 2013-05-08 12:35:29 UTC
One thought would be to have someone sat in station relaying commands, and chit chat without having to worry about the actual battle, they could then be paid in ISK and have a schedule so that it doesnt always fall on one persons shoulders.
Amantus
Drexciyan Sea Unit
SPACE DETROIT
#64 - 2013-05-08 12:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Amantus
if the fc is really hot with broadcasts + use text for unbroadcastable commands then i reckon deaf players in dps ships would definitely be able to get involved if they are looking at what the rest of the fleet is doing and checking broadcast timestamps.


not that i know a single thing about being deaf though
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#65 - 2013-05-08 13:00:19 UTC
Amantus wrote:
if the fc is really hot with broadcasts + use text for unbroadcastable commands then i reckon deaf players in dps ships would definitely be able to get involved if they are looking at what the rest of the fleet is doing and checking broadcast timestamps.


not that i know a single thing about being deaf though

I think we have all had situations where not everyone in fleet could get on voice, or when voice failed completely. So practices like using the ingame broadcast system in preference to out of game voice are just good habits anyway.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#66 - 2013-05-08 13:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
I posted a summary of this thread over on Ablegamers, http://www.ablegamers.com/1-general-game-discussion/7757-eve-online-deaf-friendly-mmo#8191 any feedback from here is also welcome.

"The temporary solutions seem to revolve around enabling a dedicated relayer to retransmit the information from voice into a visual format. Eve is a PC game and so the keyboard is always there, and texting in game is already very common. Voice commands are for time critical situations when people need to act together. So our problem is getting these voice commands to people without access to voice quickly and accurately. Fortunately the commands are mostly standardized already; jump, warp and hold, burn to gate, do not aggress, are a few examples.

Ultimately we would like to see Voice to broadcast/text technology incorporated directly into the game. In the meantime a couple of good ideas have come up;

A program called dito, which is an extension of the windows clipboard would allow players to pre-compose instructions and posts then just copy and paste when needed. ditto-cp.sourceforge.net/ I'm going to try that out today.

Another idea was presented by a long time hearing impared player, he has developed a shorthand code for all the commonly used commands. It is not a huge document, but the trouble I see is getting everyone to use the same abbreviations. If you have any ideas for helping to disseminate a standard system of abbreviations like this and getting everyone to use them please post em up!

The third solution involves the g13 keyboard www.logitech.com/en-ca/product/g13-advanced-gameboard
commands could be hot keyed into the keyboard then broadcasted when needed. Many devices like this are against the EULA of games. I think the g13 is allowed by Eve, there is certainly one of these keyboards that is permitted by the EULA.

Any other ideas would be welcome, as would comments or experiences with any of those already listed."
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-05-08 14:04:59 UTC
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Could voice-recognition software like 'Dragon Naturally Speaking' be used to relay orders/communications to other players in a realtime typed format?

I seriously doubt any voice recognition software will be able to pick up many of the esoteric terms we use in EVE.
Even if it did, as pointed out earlier, the software tends to get confused easily with multiple speakers.


You're right about multiple speakers and such - that wouldn't work . That's why you couldn't use it directly from voice comms, a human would still be needed to relay between voice comms and the people being communicated to. It would just hopefully be faster since the program would type out what the person doing the relaying was saying in real time. Perhaps that might allow more people to be able to volunteer to be working relay since one wouldn't have to be able to type really fast? Although each individual relayer would probably need to have their own voice-recognition program set up to recognize how they speak. As for terms, once you clarify to the program you are saying "cyno" and not "cyan" I think it remembers that...you "train" it with the terms and shorthand terms (AU, awox, npc, etc) you commonly use. Just an idea...




Why would there multiple speakers if only the FC used this programm? It doesn't have to be connected to TS directly, just run it parallel on the FC's machine any halfway decent mic should be able to filter out any background noise. The only difficulty I see is to make the programm post all those neat commands the NC issues in the right ingame chat window. :/

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#68 - 2013-05-08 14:08:47 UTC
My little grain of salt, having worked with deaf/mute people and me usually playing most games with no sound at all during the past years (bit deaf too) , I think it would be great to have a small color coded movable window with bold text popping up in a specific area of the ui. Something visual in key colors.

That would help a lot, specially for some commands, and I think I can bet it would help several other players too that focus their attention on hearing and visual cues could help them process data faster.

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#69 - 2013-05-08 14:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Lenda Shinhwa wrote:
I use a program called Ditto that provides an enhanced clipboard. You can store a history of text in it and it is easy to pop up and select what you want. I of course use it to taunt miners in the hopes of extracting tears. But it could just as easily be used to load up with several key phrases for use in PvP. What you would need more than anything is an FC that used standardized phrases for common tasks to cut down on the time it takes you to understand what he is saying and therefore pick the right relay text off the clipboard. Combine that with an FC who actually uses the Tag system on the overview and I would think you could get by pretty well.

Ditto:
[url=http://ditto clipboard ap from sourceforge



Thats all mal-ware! *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS!!!! "Dito" clipboard ap from "sourceforge"
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2013-05-08 17:29:07 UTC
Maggie Evenstar wrote:
Harek wrote:
Deaf player going on since 2005...it gets quite lonely in Eve at times. TS (Teamspeak) and Eve Voice is a huge barrier and countless corporations and alliances reject enough times. Founded my own corp and play with few friends. Any Deaf/HoH capsuleers chime in-game would be wonderful :)

CCP should balance out the need for the hearing and Deaf/HoH/Blind...equal access and break down the barriers plus discrimination/prejudice

-Harek


Okay, I'll rant a bit...

Here are a few of the more notable discriminatory treatments I've had in Eve due to my deafness.

1. Last year I tried to join Eve University but the recruiter said I could not join since I could not hear the voice comms due to the fact that I'm deaf. I appreciate their teaching new players Eve, but thought that treatment was absolutely reprehensible.

2. As a girl gamer, I was invited to join the Women Gamers of Eve channel of which I was a member for almost a year. The admin who invited me allowed me to avoid the teamspeak interview (to verify I am really a girl) because I shared with her my personal website, hosted under MYNAMEIRL.COM (which is also Maggie) and contained a number of photos of me. I had her send me a email from the contact form on the site to verify that it was me. I also let her see me on facebook and run a whois search on my website domain name to see my name yet again as the owner of the site (along with my cell number and home address!). In retrospect, this was all very very stupid of me to share like that but that's what I did. Then, about a year later, the main channel admin singled me out when she heard I was deaf and started asking me how I got into the channel. I told her, but she demanded the voice interview and removed me. I just thought the whole thing was incredibly rude and insensitive. I could let this person hear my voice or see me on cams, but after being targeted like that because of my being deaf...I have absolutely no interest in being involved with anything in which that person is involved.

3. Here is something that has happened a few times...I'll be in a fleet doing some sort of OP and suddenly convo goes completely silent for 10+ minutes...no one responding because they are not paying attention because they are on voice (not even a quick response saying "we are working on something in voice"). When I try to explain that I need to be kept better in the loop, on more than one occasion I've had guys respond that they think I'm trying to make the world revolve around me which is totally not true (not in these cases anyway Blink ). Some of that may be a perception because I am very chatty but chat is THE ONLY communication I have in here. I think there is basically just a total disconnect with a lot of people with what it is like to be deaf and what is required for meaningful interaction.

I find to play Eve, I have to find players willing to NOT use voice comms so that communication is steady. This means I have to avoid large fleet activities altogether (except for incursions)...which are pretty straight forward and don't require comms once you know what you're doing.

Okay...my rant is over...If you are deaf or would like to play with a deaf player...look me up. I live in WH space with Highsec access so it's pretty easy to get to me.


Ouch. You aren't alone though, all of us have went through discrimination in many ways. It sucks that everyone who is hearing is so dependent on VOIP nowadays... 15 years ago everyone did raids, went on pvp conquests, etc using only text and look how much that has changed. X

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Lenda Shinhwa wrote:
I use a program called Ditto that provides an enhanced clipboard. You can store a history of text in it and it is easy to pop up and select what you want. I of course use it to taunt miners in the hopes of extracting tears. But it could just as easily be used to load up with several key phrases for use in PvP. What you would need more than anything is an FC that used standardized phrases for common tasks to cut down on the time it takes you to understand what he is saying and therefore pick the right relay text off the clipboard. Combine that with an FC who actually uses the Tag system on the overview and I would think you could get by pretty well.

Ditto:
[url=http://ditto clipboard ap from sourceforge



Thats all bullshit mal-ware you *******!!!!

DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS!!!! "Dito" clipboard ap from "sourceforge"


Sorry to hear. I hope you get it all sorted.

.
Akira Menoko
Silnare
#71 - 2013-05-08 18:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Akira Menoko
Maggie Evenstar wrote:

3. Here is something that has happened a few times...I'll be in a fleet doing some sort of OP and suddenly convo goes completely silent for 10+ minutes...no one responding because they are not paying attention because they are on voice (not even a quick response saying "we are working on something in voice").


I can't log in to voice every time I log into Eve so I run into this problem myself every so often and its annoying.

And I can't find the various comments on the fleet broadcasts to quote, but I'd welcome some changes to that too. In general I don't run fleets, but I tried running one once for a corp anomaly running op with some new players. Calling targets over voice was impossible because they are all named the same, so I tried using tags. That didn't work because setting tags is a click fest and was a literal pain in my wrist. Using target broadcasts worked somewhat but they don't stay on screen long enough or it was hard to pick the primary out from the rest. Eventually it got to the point where I stopped trying and everyone just shot at whatever they wanted. But I'll admit I should work with the fleet command tools in game more and get better acquainted with them. Big smile
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#72 - 2013-05-08 21:01:09 UTC
I have removed an off topic post. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#73 - 2013-05-08 22:50:31 UTC
I would like to add that downloading anything, even if linked from this forum, is entirely at your own risk.
If for any reason you don't trust it, don't download it.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Lenda Shinhwa
Bad Touches
#74 - 2013-05-08 23:11:13 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Lenda Shinhwa wrote:
I use a program called Ditto that provides an enhanced clipboard. You can store a history of text in it and it is easy to pop up and select what you want. I of course use it to taunt miners in the hopes of extracting tears. But it could just as easily be used to load up with several key phrases for use in PvP. What you would need more than anything is an FC that used standardized phrases for common tasks to cut down on the time it takes you to understand what he is saying and therefore pick the right relay text off the clipboard. Combine that with an FC who actually uses the Tag system on the overview and I would think you could get by pretty well.

Ditto:
[url=http://ditto clipboard ap from sourceforge



Thats all bullshit mal-ware *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS!!!! "Dito" clipboard ap from "sourceforge"


Yeah sorry. I downloaded it a long time ago. Didn't have the original link so I just googled it. I'm a pirate in Eve, not IRL. No reason to trust me now, but I found the link I used:

http://download.cnet.com/Ditto/3000-2384_4-10456979.html
Lenda Shinhwa
Bad Touches
#75 - 2013-05-08 23:16:54 UTC
Maggie Evenstar wrote:


I'm sorry but this is just ignorant. There are many things CCP could do with the interface in Eve to make communications in fleet activities go much smoother...where txting or talking would not even be required to effectively identify orders and targets. I know there are some of these things in place...but they are so clunky and/or limited as to require additional comms for fleets to keep things straight.

This game could be fine tuned to the point where an FC could easily lead fleets without having to say or type a single word.


That's cool. I say hearing impaired people would be welcome in New Order Logistics, given no credit and then get called ignorant. I've been called worse so its Ok.

That all sorts of things in this game could be fine tuned is an understatement of the highest order. That CCP provides a facility to use that accommodates both the hearing and deaf is indisputable. But tarring CCP with the "discrimination" goop for not having the perfect hearing impaired interface is fairly crummy I think. That some corps are tools who will not make allowances for the hearing impaired is unfortunate, but hardly CCP's domain.
Maggie Evenstar
Unoriginal Corporation
#76 - 2013-05-09 03:05:27 UTC
Lenda Shinhwa wrote:
Maggie Evenstar wrote:


I'm sorry but this is just ignorant. There are many things CCP could do with the interface in Eve to make communications in fleet activities go much smoother...where txting or talking would not even be required to effectively identify orders and targets. I know there are some of these things in place...but they are so clunky and/or limited as to require additional comms for fleets to keep things straight.

This game could be fine tuned to the point where an FC could easily lead fleets without having to say or type a single word.


That's cool. I say hearing impaired people would be welcome in New Order Logistics, given no credit and then get called ignorant. I've been called worse so its Ok.

That all sorts of things in this game could be fine tuned is an understatement of the highest order. That CCP provides a facility to use that accommodates both the hearing and deaf is indisputable. But tarring CCP with the "discrimination" goop for not having the perfect hearing impaired interface is fairly crummy I think. That some corps are tools who will not make allowances for the hearing impaired is unfortunate, but hardly CCP's domain.


Sorry to snip at you. This is an emotive subject for me. Kudos that your corp welcomes deaf players.
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
#77 - 2013-05-09 06:37:23 UTC
Maggie, sorry to hear of the issues you've encountered.

I thought that in a fleet/squad you could already mark targets in terms of the order you want them attacked, you simply need to change your overview bracketing to add the required column and for the FC to mark them, though its a long time since I've been in a fleet as I've been out of game for 2 years.

Has the fleet interface changed so that you cant do that anymore?
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#78 - 2013-05-09 09:54:29 UTC
Lenda Shinhwa wrote:

Yeah sorry. I downloaded it a long time ago. Didn't have the original link so I just googled it. I'm a pirate in Eve, not IRL. No reason to trust me now, but I found the link I used:

http://download.cnet.com/Ditto/3000-2384_4-10456979.html


Sorry to get snarky man, not your fault. That's the 2nd time this year I got hit with a download like that. The first one was much worse and I was thinking that this one would be as bad. It wasn't. The stuff uninstalled pretty easily and I needed to run a spyware scan anyway.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#79 - 2013-05-09 11:15:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
To get back on track:

Last night I was in a big fleet 100+. I volunteered to relay as it has been a few fleets since I did. Someone asked that caps be used for the relay as fleet chat was moving so quickly. I did this for 10 minutes or so, but it felt awkward SHOUTING all the time, and fleet chat was flying by. I tried to open a channel specifically for voice relay and apparently you can only have 10 private channels or something. No one had x’ed up earlier as needing the relay and I asked again a few more times before stopping all together.

I bet this happens a lot, it is fun for the first 10 minutes but as the fleet starts to get exciting and people drink more beer or whatever the relay tapers off. In my experience this happens in most programs that require people to do something that is out of the ordinary.

I think having a dedicated relay channel is a must, fleet gets too busy and trying to relay voice commands there just adds to the clutter. Also Eve is a social game and fleet chat is an important part of that, people should feel free to chat and joke and talk about the weather or whatever.

I am going to sort my private chat channels today and set one aside specifically for voice relay. The other thing that I want to get into is the broadcast system. As with all things Eve there are many options and much functionality there which is not being used to its full potential.

*I have started to incorporate Pineapples short hand. It is a well thought out system and something that I will just put into the MOTD of the relay channel.
Maggie Evenstar
Unoriginal Corporation
#80 - 2013-05-11 01:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Maggie Evenstar
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
To get back on track:

I bet this happens a lot, it is fun for the first 10 minutes but as the fleet starts to get exciting and people drink more beer or whatever the relay tapers off. In my experience this happens in most programs that require people to do something that is out of the ordinary.



A RL example...I was in court a couple months ago (no, I wasn't the one on trial) and they assigned 2 translators for me so they could take turns. Signing for hours is exhausting. For a large fleet engaged in prolonged activity...there has to be multiple people willing to relay. Besides sharing the work, it also doesn't leave us out in the cold if the person relaying has to log in the middle of the op.

(and yes I realize relaying comms and signing are not the same thing...but relaying IS extra work and difficult for one person to do for prolonged periods of time.)