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[Odyssey] Navy Battlecruisers

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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#441 - 2013-05-07 18:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Chessur wrote:
Canes were never OP in the first place. I wish forums would not be filled with idiots who simply spout of talking points, and repeat lines that are not based in fact

If we pretend that half of the former BCs never existed, then yes, cane was fine. Why do you need different ships when you can just fit a Cane in different ways and be capable of engaging pretty much anything any other CBC can engage, while being less predictable for your target still? You weren't wtfpwn'ing anything with a cane maybe, but it's not what defines being OP, it's just extreme case of OPness which cane (or pretty much any ship at the moment) wasn't.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#442 - 2013-05-08 02:50:10 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
The cane was OP first of since it was a teir 2 battle cruiser they were all good, 2nd it had been desgned to be able to fit artillery which the game designers caused to cost to much fitting, so when cane pilots switched ot autocannons they had ton of fitting left, 3rd it had my 6 guns equal your 7 or eight and take no cap, so it had 2 aux slots with fitting and cap to uses them, 4th it Minnie so it was the quickest, 5th it had the most reliable useful wep system (capless, significant damage projection,even when not the best at a range, and damage selectable) , 6th it had a true flexibility to shield tank or armor tank.

All these added up to to make it the best of the best class in the game (at least until the potentially overpowered teir 3 BC).

The only question will the already nerfed to blanced ship be forced to a lower rung by the TE nerf ?


,


Canes have no projection. Yes they were fast, but that was about it. Drakes smashed canes. The cane like all mini ships suffer from projection issues massively. Cane was never OP.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#443 - 2013-05-08 02:52:30 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Canes were never OP in the first place. I wish forums would not be filled with idiots who simply spout of talking points, and repeat lines that are not based in fact

If we pretend that half of the former BCs never existed, then yes, cane was fine. Why do you need different ships when you can just fit a Cane in different ways and be capable of engaging pretty much anything any other CBC can engage, while being less predictable for your target still? You weren't wtfpwn'ing anything with a cane maybe, but it's not what defines being OP, it's just extreme case of OPness which cane (or pretty much any ship at the moment) wasn't.


Fit a ship different ways to accomplish different things?!?!!?? And your trying to tell me that the cane is the only ship that has this unique power? Wow your an idiot. You don't WTFBBQ stuff with all cane fits. As for predictability- its pretty easy to tell how a ship is fitted from looking at two things:

1. Guns
2. Speed

Then again in order to do those two things, you have to do more in pvp than click approach and F1. My guess is that is a bit too complex for you, so i suppose in that sense I can understand where you would mistakenly believe canes were too powerful.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#444 - 2013-05-08 03:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Chessur wrote:


Canes were never OP in the first place. I wish forums would not be filled with idiots who simply spout of talking points, and repeat lines that are not based in fact


If you think that the original cane was not op, you're bad and you should feel bad.

It had nothing to do with "talking points" it had everything to do with over the top slot numbers, mobility, and fitting potential.


Why was the cane OP? Explain this to me? It used AC's. Which have no projection... past 22K. The cane was pretty fast I give you that, but what is the point? Shield AC fit, it didn't have the DPS to fight an armor brawler, and didn't have the projection to really kite effectively. Armor fit the cane was not fast enough to catch shield BC's that kited the **** out of it. It had weaknesses no matter what- like most ships. You just have to know how to fight / fly against it.

In fact I have a youtube video of myself (in a Caracal navy issue), an armor cane, zealot and drake taking on and killing 5 canes and a drake. the only thing we lost was our armor cane. So I don't understand your point? Other than you most likely have no PvP experience and are talking out of your butt like 99% of the eve online forum goers. The sad thing is, CCP actually listens to the masses. Even if the masses are filled with pvp morons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYElqXIuI28

Im not kidding.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#445 - 2013-05-08 03:16:46 UTC
Ugh I agree with chessur, Ill fly minmatar no matter what but from my experience they do not have the best pvp ships. They had one key element they were fun to fly, not so much the best, but fun. Wont really find me flying a cyclone now that it is the new drake. Minmatar needs a real focus again... now it is becoming caldari light ships or a strange meh combination that issupposed to be solely saved by the alpha of arties.... ooh look stabber sucks ... lets give it some drones and say fixed...
In sort minmatar ships post balancing no longer have a identiity and certainly no real thought behind them.. guess we will have to live with it. Being minmatar you are forced to train everything anyway so its easy enough to switch.
Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2013-05-08 06:47:02 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Airto TLA wrote:
The cane was OP first of since it was a teir 2 battle cruiser they were all good, 2nd it had been desgned to be able to fit artillery which the game designers caused to cost to much fitting, so when cane pilots switched ot autocannons they had ton of fitting left, 3rd it had my 6 guns equal your 7 or eight and take no cap, so it had 2 aux slots with fitting and cap to uses them, 4th it Minnie so it was the quickest, 5th it had the most reliable useful wep system (capless, significant damage projection,even when not the best at a range, and damage selectable) , 6th it had a true flexibility to shield tank or armor tank.

All these added up to to make it the best of the best class in the game (at least until the potentially overpowered teir 3 BC).

The only question will the already nerfed to blanced ship be forced to a lower rung by the TE nerf ?


,


Canes have no projection. Yes they were fast, but that was about it. Drakes smashed canes. The cane like all mini ships suffer from projection issues massively. Cane was never OP.


I only ever worried about a drake in a shield cane... in an armor cane, I attacked... unless I smelled bait
Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2013-05-08 06:49:55 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Chessur wrote:


Canes were never OP in the first place. I wish forums would not be filled with idiots who simply spout of talking points, and repeat lines that are not based in fact


If you think that the original cane was not op, you're bad and you should feel bad.

It had nothing to do with "talking points" it had everything to do with over the top slot numbers, mobility, and fitting potential.


Why was the cane OP? Explain this to me? It used AC's. Which have no projection... past 22K. The cane was pretty fast I give you that, but what is the point? Shield AC fit, it didn't have the DPS to fight an armor brawler, and didn't have the projection to really kite effectively. Armor fit the cane was not fast enough to catch shield BC's that kited the **** out of it. It had weaknesses no matter what- like most ships. You just have to know how to fight / fly against it.

In fact I have a youtube video of myself (in a Caracal navy issue), an armor cane, zealot and drake taking on and killing 5 canes and a drake. the only thing we lost was our armor cane. So I don't understand your point? Other than you most likely have no PvP experience and are talking out of your butt like 99% of the eve online forum goers. The sad thing is, CCP actually listens to the masses. Even if the masses are filled with pvp morons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYElqXIuI28

Im not kidding.


Na, the cane was never OP... but it was versitile. That was its glory.
Perihelion Olenard
#448 - 2013-05-08 07:55:34 UTC
Chessur wrote:

Wow your an idiot.

If you're going to call someone else an idiot, the least you could do is use the proper version of "you're". Otherwise it makes you look like an idiot, too.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#449 - 2013-05-08 08:03:04 UTC
Quote:
Canes have no projection. Yes they were fast, but that was about it. Drakes smashed canes. The cane like all mini ships suffer from projection issues massively. Cane was never OP.



ROFL. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
That was a good one. Had to laugh. Really. Rofl.
Seldom saw so much irony and sarcasm in 4 sentences. Rofl.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#450 - 2013-05-08 11:12:46 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Chessur wrote:

Wow your an idiot.

If you're going to call someone else an idiot, the least you could do is use the proper version of "you're". Otherwise it makes you look like an idiot, too.


You know when you are winning an argument when the opposing party begins to attack your grammar.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#451 - 2013-05-08 11:18:03 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Quote:
Canes have no projection. Yes they were fast, but that was about it. Drakes smashed canes. The cane like all mini ships suffer from projection issues massively. Cane was never OP.



ROFL. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
That was a good one. Had to laugh. Really. Rofl.
Seldom saw so much irony and sarcasm in 4 sentences. Rofl.


I am glad you find this so funny.

How ever I find it more amusing that you say all of these things with out offering a shred of evidence to the contrary. As I have said before eve online forum goes are 99% pvp morons, and 1% competent pilots. You seem to fall into the latter category.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#452 - 2013-05-08 11:34:55 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Chessur wrote:

Wow your an idiot.

If you're going to call someone else an idiot, the least you could do is use the proper version of "you're". Otherwise it makes you look like an idiot, too.


You know when you are winning an argument when the opposing party begins to attack your grammar.


Only if the post being attacked wasn't "yeeeeaaah welll.....you're dumb" Blink

What's next? Gonna have your dad beat him up P
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#453 - 2013-05-08 17:15:52 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Quote:
Canes have no projection. Yes they were fast, but that was about it. Drakes smashed canes. The cane like all mini ships suffer from projection issues massively. Cane was never OP.



ROFL. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
That was a good one. Had to laugh. Really. Rofl.
Seldom saw so much irony and sarcasm in 4 sentences. Rofl.


I am glad you find this so funny.

How ever I find it more amusing that you say all of these things with out offering a shred of evidence to the contrary. As I have said before eve online forum goes are 99% pvp morons, and 1% competent pilots. You seem to fall into the latter category.


There you go put yourself and the 1%, you also in response to my post mentioned the drake as a ship that could beat the cane so that a cane was not overpowred, drake the same ship that got the offending weapon system nerfed to hell, and mildly nerfed itself.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#454 - 2013-05-08 20:53:20 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Quote:
Canes have no projection. Yes they were fast, but that was about it. Drakes smashed canes. The cane like all mini ships suffer from projection issues massively. Cane was never OP.



ROFL. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
That was a good one. Had to laugh. Really. Rofl.
Seldom saw so much irony and sarcasm in 4 sentences. Rofl.


Agreed, I used to get 500+ dps out of an armour cane and face **** titans in fleets when I was in null. Cane was way op.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#455 - 2013-05-08 21:12:06 UTC
Emily Jean McKenna wrote:

Na, the cane was never OP... but it was versitile. That was its glory.


Like so many PVP games EVE is also rock / paper / scissors game. Minmatar is not any of those Minny ships flex around everything. You can always find fit to beat the ship you face. Who faces you can't never quite know if you run shield or armor tank or what ammo you have. Yes minnies have also weaknesses but merely the fact that Minny ships are unpredictable and fast make them OP. Its not as bad it used to be due to ship balances but Minny hulls are too versatile in comparison to other race hulls.

So in rock / papers / scissors game water beats them all..
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#456 - 2013-05-09 01:09:04 UTC

After fitting and flying Harbinger NBCs my first feeling are:

Harbringer skin looks amazing!

However Harbinger Navy Issue feels and handles exactly like BS. I also had slight fitting problems due to the fact that harbinger has only 6L. I did not get expected range of about 30km with falloff (pulses with navy ultraviolet crystals one TC) only 20kms. Like every Amarr boat it seems that Navy Harbinger is required to fit cap injector. Harbinger is too slow with afterburner and you are really forced to fit MWD which makes cap injector more mandatory.

Summary
Those few nice things I can say about Harbinger are it looks good, due to 5 mids you can actually be able to fit better ewar than in most hulls. Thanks to 5 mids you are probably able to fit also nice shield buffer even the hull does not offer it.

Those bad things slow, cap intensive, feeling of lack of 1L. Ship feels exactly like BS. Is this anything new to Amarr?

Then my question.

Do we really need this speed ships more into the game? We already had good line of BSes. NBCs just come and make BSes less viable because they have almost same damage application and tank with little increased speed?

My view might be a minority from other players but Harbinger really seems over lap concept of BS ship line. Something we really did not need.

-1 to navy BCs
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#457 - 2013-05-09 01:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Antimatter Launcher
you dont know the design philosophy of Battle Cruisers hu ?

A battlecruiser, or battle cruiser, was a large capital ship built in the first half of the 20th century. They were similar in size and cost to a battleship, and typically carried the same kind of heavy guns, but battlecruisers generally carried less armour and were faster.

By the end of the war, capital ship design had developed with battleships becoming faster and battlecruisers becoming more and more heavily armoured, blurring the distinction between a battlecruiser and a fast battleship

Battlecruisers served in the navies of Britain, Germany, Australia and Japan during World War I, most notably at the Battle of the Falkland Islands and in the several raids and skirmishes in the North Sea.
British battlecruisers in particular suffered heavy losses, where their light armour made them very vulnerable to battleship shells.

In the early years of the World War 2 various German ships had a measure of success hunting merchant ships in the Atlantic.The one stand-up fight occurred when the battleship Bismarck was sent out as a raider and was intercepted by HMS Hood and the battleship Prince of Wales in May 1941. The elderly British battlecruiser was no match for the modern German battleship: within minutes, the Bismarck's 15-inch shells caused a magazine explosion in Hood reminiscent of the Battle of Jutland. Only three men survived.

so its okay that the navy BC,s are not significant faster then the originals. in fact, the Original Harbinger has the same max velocity like the navy harbinger, and so the original harbinger feels like a Poket BS too.

it seems you forgot the slowlyness of the original harbinger.

the navy battlecruisers are an heavy Improvment from the Original battlecruisers, and follows the philosophy of world war 2.

its nice that ccp bring them in. more armor, more firepower, but still no match for a Battleship.
Antimatter Launcher
ELVE Industries
#458 - 2013-05-09 01:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Antimatter Launcher
"Do we really need this speed ships more into the game?"

why not ? will you remove all BC,s because they are similar to BS ? would be boring.

i like eve for every ship more and more. it becomes more complexity.
more complexity = more fun.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#459 - 2013-05-09 08:14:24 UTC
"Canes were never OP in the first place."

You are so full of **** that i can smell it from here.

The Tears Must Flow
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#460 - 2013-05-09 09:49:14 UTC
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
you dont know the design philosophy of Battle Cruisers hu ?

A battlecruiser, or battle cruiser, was a large capital ship built in the first half of the 20th century. They were similar in size and cost to a battleship, and typically carried the same kind of heavy guns, but battlecruisers generally carried less armour and were faster.

By the end of the war, capital ship design had developed with battleships becoming faster and battlecruisers becoming more and more heavily armoured, blurring the distinction between a battlecruiser and a fast battleship

Battlecruisers served in the navies of Britain, Germany, Australia and Japan during World War I, most notably at the Battle of the Falkland Islands and in the several raids and skirmishes in the North Sea.
British battlecruisers in particular suffered heavy losses, where their light armour made them very vulnerable to battleship shells.

In the early years of the World War 2 various German ships had a measure of success hunting merchant ships in the Atlantic.The one stand-up fight occurred when the battleship Bismarck was sent out as a raider and was intercepted by HMS Hood and the battleship Prince of Wales in May 1941. The elderly British battlecruiser was no match for the modern German battleship: within minutes, the Bismarck's 15-inch shells caused a magazine explosion in Hood reminiscent of the Battle of Jutland. Only three men survived.

so its okay that the navy BC,s are not significant faster then the originals. in fact, the Original Harbinger has the same max velocity like the navy harbinger, and so the original harbinger feels like a Poket BS too.

it seems you forgot the slowlyness of the original harbinger.

the navy battlecruisers are an heavy Improvment from the Original battlecruisers, and follows the philosophy of world war 2.

its nice that ccp bring them in. more armor, more firepower, but still no match for a Battleship.


I have not forget the speed of original BCs I just consider it lame that we get now ships that heavily overlap with BS making them obsolete. Navy BCs are basically 'fast' BSes.

I am sure that the speed difference too makes it so that at least cane can easily bring down any BS when its correctly fitted. You seem to forget that large weapon system have worse tracking.

Anyway NBCs are simply 'fast' BSes and EVE really does not need more ship hulls that compete with BS.