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[Odyssey] Attack Battlecruiser balance pass

First post
Author
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#381 - 2013-05-03 10:44:49 UTC
Wu1f wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

lol this is an alt

although flying a falcon it can be popped in a few hits by a nado arty fit
- just switch some alpha for ROF its seems odd that AC's are so ROF based but arties are opposite
-missiles and lasers should really be more alpha based than projectiles and rails.


Shocked *FacePalm*

you're an idiot

of course autos and arties do the opposite just like all the different weapons systems for each race.
blaster = short range dps rails = long range no dps, pulse and beams are similar as are torps and cruise missiles are you seeing a trend here?

i like the idea of slowing the Tier 3s down but there is still nothing you can do about that pre-alligned nado 90-100km off gate with a throw away remote sensor boosting alt next to it.

still i look forward to seeing the changes in action Big smile


I hope for you're sake you're being facetious.. otherwise you're the idiot..... just in case you are try reading my post again and pay attention to the words ROF based .. there is no mention of range in there at all.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#382 - 2013-05-04 07:40:07 UTC
UVPhoenix2 wrote:
Akturous wrote:
So when are you actually nerfing tier 3 bc's? You know, since more than BS damage with cruiser speed and extreme damage projection are balanced...

The tier 3's are working as intended. They don't need another nerf. The other ship classes need a buff and that's the direction CCP's been heading in.


Wait so leme get this straight...


The Tier3s are balanced... everything else is just too weak?

You've got it totally backwards.
Wu1f
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#383 - 2013-05-05 10:00:12 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

lol this is an alt

although flying a falcon it can be popped in a few hits by a nado arty fit
- just switch some alpha for ROF its seems odd that AC's are so ROF based but arties are opposite
-missiles and lasers should really be more alpha based than projectiles and rails.




I hope for you're sake you're being facetious.. otherwise you're the idiot..... just in case you are try reading my post again and pay attention to the words ROF based .. there is no mention of range in there at all.




"its seems odd that AC's are so ROF based but arties are opposite " & "missiles and lasers should really be more alpha based than projectiles and rails."

in terms of the ROF point, this makes it seem like you'd rather the two were more similar, if that were to happen then there would be no point in having the differnt types of weapon. arties are great as they are if you dont like the ROF then dont use them

in terms of alpha i dont understand your logic when it comes to missiles having more alpha. im well aware this is internet spaceships but still a big cannon firing a nice big chunk of lead at how ever many hundred km/s is going to have more force behind it then a missile traveling at 2km/s even with the force of the explosion especially when you take into account the possibility of a ship out running the blast.

but back to the point of the forum tier 3 BCs - slow them down so we can kill them easier :)
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#384 - 2013-05-07 19:21:43 UTC
Please make the NAGA a missile boat, you have Hybrid Turrets represented twice in this series once with the TALOS where it belongs and again with the NAGA where missiles should be.

Alternately, if you dont want to upset current NAGA flyers and, why would you, then add a missile variant of the NAGA, (the SELKURK ? ) Anyways, i realize no other ship in this series has a variant but i think my "missiles are missing" argument justifies an exception with the NAGA hull.

Btw, the NAGA hull is awesome, so please just make a variant of it that uses missiles and we'll all be happy.

I'm sure I'll be flamed, but I'm sporting heavy flame retardant shielding so I can take it.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#385 - 2013-05-07 19:42:19 UTC
Missles to slow to fill the role of the ship, the ship shoots and scoots. Missles fire and the take a lifetime to hit, in the mean time your glass missle launcher dies.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#386 - 2013-05-07 22:24:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Airto TLA wrote:
Missles to slow to fill the role of the ship, the ship shoots and scoots. Missles fire and the take a lifetime to hit, in the mean time your glass missle launcher dies.



1st: Appreciate an adult response to my post, thank you!

2nd: Thanks for informing me as to why this boat level doesn't have missiles.

3rd: They are looking into the effectiveness of missiles for this expansion and although it sounds like missiles will still be the bottom of the offensive systems pile, if they can at least bring missiles up to "acceptable" i would still want a missile-Naga variant ship.

4th: forgot to mention it but if you do make the Missile-Naga how about calling it a Caldari Navy Naga, gray with dark blue tiger strips....awesome!

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#387 - 2013-05-08 02:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: NeoShocker
Ya know, when I saw the mass, it doesn't make sense.

Each race have perks that they have advantage over other races.

Following perks are:

minmatar ships have the best speed, lowest mass, best locking speed, worst sensor str and lock range of all races, balances of slots, best Power Grid amount

Caldari? Best shield hp, best cpu output, best sensor str and locking range, but biggest mass, most mid slots

Amarr? Best amor hp, best capacitor, but slowest speed (right? don't recall), most low slots

Then gallente, best structure HP, best drone bay size, and supposely well balanced in most aspects? slot wise, similar than minmatar, but more low slot and less mid slots than usual.

When I say best, they have better numbers on specific areas than other races.

So tornado not having the least mass? Its pretty much not consistent. Doesn't make sense that naga have the least mass either.

Do note, there are other perks I missed out, but its been years I seen those perks on the net, and its not there when I try to find it.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#388 - 2013-05-08 18:13:26 UTC
The issue with the general concept is that racial typing does not work well with T3 BC since they all use speed, agility and sig to avoid dying, they all have paper EHP and trading 10% of the important stuff for 10% the unimportant stuff means you are going to be the worse in class.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#389 - 2013-05-08 18:24:27 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
Missles to slow to fill the role of the ship, the ship shoots and scoots. Missles fire and the take a lifetime to hit, in the mean time your glass missle launcher dies.

Your words are true but would it perhaps be possible for naga to choose either missiles or turrets? It should be possible right? I know missiles can be bit crappy in ship vs ship but ABCs are also used in POS bashes. And versatile even little sluggish damage type is still a plus.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#390 - 2013-05-08 18:39:45 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
Airto TLA wrote:
Missles to slow to fill the role of the ship, the ship shoots and scoots. Missles fire and the take a lifetime to hit, in the mean time your glass missle launcher dies.

Your words are true but would it perhaps be possible for naga to choose either missiles or turrets? It should be possible right? I know missiles can be bit crappy in ship vs ship but ABCs are also used in POS bashes. And versatile even little sluggish damage type is still a plus.


It would seem that the POS shoot thing is more of a side effect than a planned role, besides wouldn't you need a supply ship to feed you missles (especially torps) in a POS shoot?

I am not sure if I am shooting a POS I bring an Oracle
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#391 - 2013-05-08 19:06:21 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:

It would seem that the POS shoot thing is more of a side effect than a planned role, besides wouldn't you need a supply ship to feed you missles (especially torps) in a POS shoot?

I am not sure if I am shooting a POS I bring an Oracle

I haven't been to many POS bashes but those that I have been to used missile ships and last time I used Tornado with ACs. Since you can shoot damage type you wish and it won't sink to resistance.

Ammo logistics is a thing you need to consider yes. With missiles we had orca that was used as ammo hold. Last time we simply ran ammo from the adjacent system (our home WH so it was rather easy).

Oracle is easy way out but when you shoot Minny tower it might not be that wise. Since large portion of your DPS would sink into resistances.

But yes, if we would allow this it would make BS ships even more inferior as they already are. Taking one thing away from them. I thought Naga fitted with missiles had been nice too but now I see its not a good idea. However tornado is left in yet bit over powered situation due to versatile damage type. Amarr, Gallente and Caldari ABCs should have something that emulates the flexible damage type. Like resistance piercing.
Feather Storm
Tindalosian Trading Consortium
#392 - 2013-05-14 07:27:47 UTC
To all of you out there wishing for a missile Naga it is not going to happen. The origional prototype of the Naga had both gun and missile hardpoints and bonus to both weapon systems. However it turned out in testing on SiSi that the missile Naga was way to easy to turn into a frigate killer of insane capability. So CCP removed the missile hardpoints and bonus giving us the Naga we have today. Just a small piece of history I think you should know so you know why it is the way it is.

Things change you adapt or you whine.

[u]Please note[/u]: Whining will alert the nearest predator resulting in death and the continuation of the EVE-olutionary process.

Drachiel
Mercury LLC
#393 - 2013-05-16 21:29:01 UTC
Vaga Talos still lives!
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#394 - 2013-05-17 07:22:20 UTC
I don't explain the difference in speed between the four races for these attack battlecruisers.

Making the caldari slow because overall the race is slow (and yet has the smallest ships, wtf, but that's another story) is as stupid as not giving torpedoes to gallente bombers because their race doesn't use torpedoes.

Attack battlecruisers are designed to be fast, as well as stealthbombers were designed to have torpedoes. All stealth bombers have the same torpedo bonus regardless of the "background" of the race, why would it be different here ?

My point is, speed on these ships isn't even linked to a sniping or a brawler role, as the tornado has the most velocity while it's clearly a sniper.

I bet you guys never though that, eventually, not everyone is using the naga with ****** railguns, and as such, a bit of speed would be appreciated as we are the slowlest both in speed and agility. :/


No need to be a genius to see why Caldari ships are not balanced for pvp :

- Missiles are by default unable to apply damages to a smaller target than the ship itself
- Railguns are bad
- Being small, AND slow, AND less agile won't help
- Overall, having range bonuses is useless if you have to stay at range of a warp disruptor. (24km, minus the margin you need to react any enemy movement, margin even more important that the ship has bad agility and speed).
- Sniping mechanics are dead because of combat probes, and died a second time now that said-probes are buffed.


I was hoping that the attack battlecruiser rebalance would give a fresh breath to the naga... And I'm fine with the range bonus, but it locks you into a mindset were the naga is a sniper, and as such needs to be bad at moving around... While lowering all brawling capabilities ! (And no the Talos doesn't have enough midslots for us)

The worst part is that, actually, snipers could use to be agile and quick, as kitting is the only way to survive in sniping currently, apart from warping out, but I'm not sure that a "warp-out" gameplay is intended...

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

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Dr Ted Kaper
o Lodestar o
#395 - 2013-05-19 04:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Ted Kaper
Looks good

Looks like every ship has its sect saying the ship is under powered, which can only mean one thing:
this is a good balance
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#396 - 2013-05-19 04:32:39 UTC
These changes are still way to minor btw.

Tier 3 bc's still obsolete more ships than any other ship class in the game.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#397 - 2013-05-19 09:54:54 UTC
And weapon systems. They obsolete:

Nano pest
Arty Pest
Arty Mach (to some extent)
Arty Cane
Sniper Hacs
Medium Rails
Medium Arty
Medium Beams
All other BC's in a shield BC gang
Eagle
Ferox
Active Tanking

Deletion from the game is the only way of balancing these things, they've just screwed everything.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#398 - 2013-05-19 13:09:35 UTC
Akturous wrote:
And weapon systems. They obsolete:

Nano pest
Arty Pest
Arty Mach (to some extent)
Arty Cane
Sniper Hacs
Medium Rails
Medium Arty
Medium Beams
All other BC's in a shield BC gang
Eagle
Ferox
Active Tanking

Deletion from the game is the only way of balancing these things, they've just screwed everything.



Naa just removing 1 turret from them would already help a LOT and bring them to be just a bit more powerfult han the combat ones.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#399 - 2013-05-19 14:30:38 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
These changes are still way to minor btw.

Tier 3 bc's still obsolete more ships than any other ship class in the game.


100% agree. The ships need a fitting nerf at the very least. The should not be able to easily sport a full rack of highest tier guns with little or in most cases no compromise. The simple fact that the talos can fit 8x nuetrons blaster cannons II along with a 1600mm plate and mwd is a fantastic example of this problem.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#400 - 2013-05-19 22:17:31 UTC
Feather Storm wrote:
To all of you out there wishing for a missile Naga it is not going to happen. The origional prototype of the Naga had both gun and missile hardpoints and bonus to both weapon systems. However it turned out in testing on SiSi that the missile Naga was way to easy to turn into a frigate killer of insane capability. So CCP removed the missile hardpoints and bonus giving us the Naga we have today. Just a small piece of history I think you should know so you know why it is the way it is.



Wait, so you are honestly saying a Cruise/ Torp Naga was a frigate killer? What drugs are you on? Seriously....

Frigs laugh at both weapon systems. You cant even 1 shot a frig with them or even 2 shot. Ironically as you say this, the other 3 races can 1 shot frigs with no issue.

Dont feed bullcrap to the folks, the issue was missiles apply damage rather crappy and you can not snipe with them and up close shooting means dead ABC..