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Gnosis: Why is it so Terrible
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Aron Binchiette
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-05-08 07:51:37 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:
Aron Binchiette wrote:
Froggy Storm wrote:
Any ship that has so many diverse options will (obviously) need to be sub par to the specialist "best in breed" hulls. Otherwise balance goes right out the window. If its better than a brutix today and a super drake tomorrow and myrmidon next teusday then very soon we won't see any of those others.

This is what (some) people believe the T3 cruisers should have been. Sub par at everything but infinitely able to just scrape by. So thank goodness our T3 boats aren't all like my poor legion.

If this was a ship that was in normal supply I would agree, but considering this ship is in limited supply I why not make it better then al the other BC's by just a little in each of their roles so that there is more incentive to use it in pvp



I'll spot you the limited supply, but that really becomes a cost issue more than an incentive issue. At least until supply from a million alts taper off. Was there a bpc of any kind for these or were they one off ships? I never bothered to look into it and just assumed it was a novelty hanger ornament.

Also imagine the uproar if the gnosis out performed EVERY BC.

Instead a half dozen threads about how one omni hull is only average s&m gets flooded by end of the world threads about every BC on the eve of the skill changes. I'll pass on that.

there were 5 run BPC's given to people who ordered the HD stream of fanfest I believe, and personally I don't think there would be that much of an uproar if a limited BC out preformed the common ones. an example of this is that there isn't an uproar of pirate ships out preforming all of the similarly rolled T1 hulls
Aron Binchiette
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-05-08 07:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Aron Binchiette
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Aron Binchiette wrote:

it also has 17% less DPS and 13% slower and I have found in battle your scan res and agility on an armor ship are the least of your worries

So? Put a TD on it and or Duel Prop her or what not. It has six mids to the Brutix's four. Get creative, use that utility.

Different strengths. If you are more comfortable in a Brutix use it, the Gnosis isn't meant to replace anything.

good luck finding the CPU for that Fit, and my point isn't that "the brutix is better than the gnosis" it is that for a limited ship it is sub par to all the other BC's why would I use my limited hull that will cost me 200m to replace when I can use the appropriate T1 hull and do that role better than the gnosis
Austin McLaren
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-05-08 07:53:16 UTC
To answer the op, the Gnosis is a gift and from the gifts of the last 10 years it is quite possibly the best they have given so be thankful they never just gave us a re-skinned shuttle.
Aron Binchiette
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-05-08 07:55:29 UTC
Austin McLaren wrote:
To answer the op, the Gnosis is a gift and from the gifts of the last 10 years it is quite possibly the best they have given so be thankful they never just gave us a re-skinned shuttle.

yes but I want to use my gift and not be crippling my self in a fleet
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#25 - 2013-05-08 08:11:24 UTC
Aron Binchiette wrote:
yes but I want to use my gift and not be crippling my self in a fleet

Then use something else in a fleet.

Oh god.
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-05-08 08:14:17 UTC
Aron Binchiette wrote:
xPredat0rz wrote:
Aron Binchiette wrote:
I have been comparing the stats on different fits on the gnosis to other racial BC's and it seems that either buffer or active armor fits don't even compare to a brutix's stats, brutix has better tank, dps, and speed only thing it is lacking is range. and on the shield side a ferox has by more tank, less dps, better range, and a bit slower. I thought the Jovian were supposed to be a far more superior race? I understand that you cant make it so OP that nothing stands a chance against it but I thought CCP would make it just a little OP so more people will use them.


Its OP because you can fit any weapon system to it and it is effective.
You want a missile armor ship. You got it.
Shield Laser ship? You got it
You want to fit 2 projectiles 2 lasers 1 blaster and 1 missile launcher....yeah you can do that too.


It has an equal boost to everything. And a slot layout that begs to be toyed with.


Yes the being able to fit any weapon system is a nice perk but in no way is that OP and your example of fail fitting the highs, although I do understand what you mean, doesn't exactly complement your argument


I was high-lighting the fact that you can do whatever to hell you want with it. It was free and is the swiss army knife of hulls.
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#27 - 2013-05-08 08:14:59 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Aron Binchiette wrote:
yes but I want to use my gift and not be crippling my self in a fleet

Then use something else in a fleet.



if your in a fleet your small reduction in usefulness shouldnt be felt as much if you were solo
Alara IonStorm
#28 - 2013-05-08 08:22:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Aron Binchiette wrote:

good luck finding the CPU for that Fit,

555 CPU is fine for that fit.

Aron Binchiette wrote:

and my point isn't that "the brutix is better than the gnosis" it is that for a limited ship it is sub par to all the other BC's why would I use my limited hull that will cost me 200m to replace when I can use the appropriate T1 hull and do that role better than the gnosis

Because you want to fly a Gnosis, no other reason, that is the problem with limited hulls. The solution is not to make an overpowered ship, it is to release it into full T1 production. Until then the Gnosis's use will be as a one time thing or for the very wealthy who want to fly just that.

If you don't want to fly an average special Battlecruiser then don't, if you do then pay the coin, mine is a hanger ornament for that reason just like every other limited issue ship.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#29 - 2013-05-08 09:16:41 UTC
Aron Binchiette wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Armor tanked she has a lot of EWAR space, Shield tanked she has a lot of Dmg / Nano room. Great fitting for her slot layout that leaves a lot of room to play around with armor or shield.


Armor Tanked the Gnosis is seriously lacking in CPU I was having problems fitting it without leaving 3 of the midslots empty and when having less EHP then a Brutix something is wrong, shield tanked the thing is too damn slow to be nano so that leaves it as a brawler which the ferox is king of shield brawling BC's. and I did try to look at al the stats and they just didn't seem to be enough good things about the setups to counteract its bad parts for me. I have not however tried every possible weapons setup I only tried Blaster and AC fits because those are the 2 I am best with.


New Brutix has a very nice amount of EHP, and it's a specialized combat BC.

Gnosis is an exploration vessel, designed in one-size-fits-all style. As a result it's massively more versatile, able to operate well in all regions of space and does everything decently, while excelling only in thing- it scans better than other BCs.

I find it a very nice gift and look forward to using it for exploration. For PVP, there are better options.

.
Ravnik
Infinate Horizon
#30 - 2013-05-08 09:21:59 UTC
Aron Binchiette wrote:
Austin McLaren wrote:
To answer the op, the Gnosis is a gift and from the gifts of the last 10 years it is quite possibly the best they have given so be thankful they never just gave us a re-skinned shuttle.

yes but I want to use my gift and not be crippling my self in a fleet


It was FREE!! Stop complaining..Cant please some people Roll

The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly..........
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2013-05-08 09:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Froggy Storm
If you are in a fleet and the FC sees you show up in a gnosis he had better pod you for it. Any fleet level FC worth his/her salt will tell you the doc to fleet up in and then assign you jobs. As you pointed out the gnosis fits everything mediocre and nothing supreamly well.

And even if the FC doesn't shoot you first you just volunteered to be alpha'ed off the field at the first gate camp to stand up to kitchen sink fleet for a few kills.

This is NOT a fleet ship. Maybe a small gang option with creative synergy and logi. MAYBE. But the use of the ship is pretty clearly laid out for us as a solo BC hull explorer. And a mediocre one next to the tengu or proti for example.

Honestly I think this is going to be a flash in the pan and then rarely seen again. I've got three I plan to save and sell later. Not worth the effort and effective cost to find worthwhile fits and then lose them at the first gate camp.
Ra1ne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-05-08 09:37:29 UTC
because its free.......
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#33 - 2013-05-08 10:56:48 UTC
StoneCold wrote:
Correct me if i´m wrong:

The Gnosis is a civil ship, not a battlecruiser. Don´t compare it with our battlecruisers - more like use the Opus Luxury Yacht to compare ;)



exactly this. It's not meant for fighting, it's meant for baiting/exploration!
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-05-08 11:00:43 UTC
Why?
As in what makes it terrible, or what reason was it made terrible?

To the first:
I think its cap and speed are why its bad. Its cap isn't good enough for lasers, its speed isn't good enough to take advantage of fast shield fits.

To the 2nd:
I'm not sure - I guess because its free. So far, its the most usefull free ship we've got - perhaps aside from crap like the Sarum Magnate - which is exactly the same as a normal magnate, except with a reskin.
Then there are the quafe catalysts and Iterons
So, the precedent is clearly set for free ships that are as good as T1 non navy, non pirate ships.
This is unique, in that there is no T1 ship that is close. A battlecruiser with a scan bonus? its certainly novel (in a useful way, not like the primae, or that sansha codebreaking turd, or that solar sail WH ship).

As far as OP'd, who cares, its limited edition - does anyone care if an Adrestia or Freki is OPd?
Does anyone care if a Navy issue ship is better than the standard ship - those aren't even limited edition, just a smaller (but still unlimited/renewable supply)?


I can hope/dream that this is a test run for SOCT faction ships to be released and made available much like any other ship, obtained from BPC drops/faction LP stores.
If it is a test run for a new faction ship, it allows them to start testing balance, without breaking the game in the interim period, due to the limited edition nature of the ship.
Doctorkaba
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-05-08 12:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctorkaba
or so i played around with the brutix and gnosis fits and I would love for you to post your brutix fit :D. Please note i am not a gallente specialist but i have some knowledge over fleet fighting...

[Brutix, armor]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Small Nosferatu II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

[Gnosis, Armor]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
ECCM Projector II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Small Nosferatu II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5



For these fits, the brutix wins in all out dps by a fairly nice 120 dps (all lv5 skills) and has like, 100 more m/s with mwd on. However, the gnosis has more ehp because it doesnt need to fill that explosive hole, and it have a loooot more utility, which is what i think the gnosis shines at. The brutix needs a 1% implant to fly that fit (non-meta DCU). Holy cow the gnosis warps as fast as a crusier and has an extra set of light drones!

The gnosis can fit even more with about 30 extra cpu and decent powergrid. I would suggest changing the warp disruptor for another projected ECCM like a good BC should.

Please remember that the gnosis shines also (as metioned before) with the factthat you can fit a decent tank (shield or armor) with what ever guns you want. So you can have a GOOD laser shield boat (which the harby is not :D ) and a good missile armor boat that is viable in fleets.

Want some pvp help? Like to fly small and fast frigates? Then join the in game channel Tenori_Tigers!

Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-05-08 12:23:44 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:


To the first:
I think its cap and speed are why its bad. Its cap isn't good enough for lasers, its speed isn't good enough to take advantage of fast shield fits.

I don't where this idea that shield ships are fast comes from. Speed tends in practical terms tends to be more about how long one can run the MWD than the raw speed of a BC. As for not enough cap for lasers - if you're in a fleet run a shield buffer tank and throw a couple of flux coils in the lows and you'll have plenty (and lots of space for DPS mods).

The key, as I've said before, is to fit a tank that uses the opposite primary resource from the weapons - shield for lasers and arty, armour for missiles, etc.

I think it's a fun ship (though it is a bit slower than I'd really like), and wish I could afford the Collector's Set for the blueprint. I might have to buy up some hulls if they become cheap enough.
Major Lunartik
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-05-08 12:33:49 UTC
Gnosis info states its intended for exploration, nuff said Evil

as you were friends, the rest may continue scratching your heads.
Oraac Ensor
#38 - 2013-05-08 14:54:27 UTC
Aron Binchiette wrote:
Austin McLaren wrote:
To answer the op, the Gnosis is a gift and from the gifts of the last 10 years it is quite possibly the best they have given so be thankful they never just gave us a re-skinned shuttle.

yes but I want to use my gift and not be crippling my self in a fleet

So use it for its intended purpose: exploration.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-05-08 15:17:43 UTC
At 900m3 of space and 5 turrets, it's the best gas miner now, isn't it?
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#40 - 2013-05-08 15:28:36 UTC
Mavnas wrote:
At 900m3 of space and 5 turrets, it's the best gas miner now, isn't it?


Venture.