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Why 500k?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#61 - 2013-05-07 23:47:24 UTC
Defying wrote:
Multiple IP address still translate to the same host domain....
…if they're the same ISP. Granted, it's always risky to generalise from a single case, especially since my setup is… well… odd. P

Quote:
Further more you skipped completely out on the
…abuse, because it's not worth responding to. Your post had two parts: a broad categorisation into clusters and a cluster analysis. I see problems with both, especially given the methods described and particularly for EVE, where external communications are so prevalent. Behavioural analysis is neat and all, but it depends on the input being there, which is far from certain — an uncertainty that propagates through the rest of the realiability measure as well — and the tech part relies on assumptions that are not always true, which again translate into unreliable estimates.

Quote:
The metric was measured by us at the company after we did a survy of about 45k subscribers.
Fair enough, except…

Quote:
So unless people are account sharing its easy to say that if two accounts are logged in under the same computer at the same time (or have been even one time in the past) then they are owned by the same person.
…the problem is that “unless” part. Any assumption that people follow the rules instantly flags it as unreliable in my book (which then carries on to the survey answers). I suppose it could boil down to what we see as “acceptable reliability”, but there's still too many ways of one showing up as many, or many showing up as one for my taste.

Yes, tying two accounts together can be trivial in some use cases. If two accounts are being given the same input at the same time on the same computer, then yes, that sounds a lot like someone using multiboxing software. If two accounts are playing hot-seat… could be someone being a bit slow on the alt-tab (but how slow is too slow?) or it could be just that: two people playing hot seat to perform some task.

Quote:
We did it with a little old 75 man team and an operating budget of only around 3m a year. If we could do it, CCP can most def do it :)
That's just it: in a decade, they have never been able to produce even an estimate. They have relied on surveys to produce guesstimates on alt counts, but that's about it (and even ye olde botters and RMTers have gotten away with only getting some of their accounts banned — that would be a best-case scenario for telling that CCP stamps out all accounts tied to a person, and yet they don't).
dark heartt
#62 - 2013-05-08 00:23:36 UTC
Agent Titsaria wrote:
Since when eve is an online comunity of around 500k?

I see people loving the smell of their own farts on a dailly basis bullshiting themselves and others about this number.

Only CCP knows the real amount of actual individual players but if this was 'the price is right' show i'd bet all I have on no more than 20-25k.

EVE is great and all that but some people should get their heads out from that hole in the ground and face the fence.


Who cares how many actual players there are, 500k accounts subscribed isn't bad even if only 1 in 3 is a main account. You're just a hater.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#63 - 2013-05-08 02:33:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

Great work at making your own numbers. These have to be accurate and true.
No. Just pulled numbers from my anal orfice the rest just made up nothing to do withflogic about player behaviour.

Great work pointing out im full of crap though.

Quote:
To bad all you have is ASSupmtions.
Good thing I have plenty of self made facts too, and that as it turns out, the server usage comes out very close to the actual stats even if I just make crap up.

…so I think you might be confusing me with you and the OP here.



Yea......
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#64 - 2013-05-08 02:50:42 UTC
I have no problem with any number. It can be 1 million for all I care. I will continue to play until I dont feel the desire to. I only have 3-5 accounts active at any one time. I am not one of those 100 mining account people. I Only keep those to allow myself access to Hi/Low/Null.

I think this thread does prove a couple of things. The forum trolls will argue over any and every post, and they will continue to troll a thread they dont like or agree with or cant logically dispute until it gets locks.
Zeko Rena
ENCOM Industries
#65 - 2013-05-08 02:52:31 UTC
I read the OP and felt my IQ drop in real time.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#66 - 2013-05-08 03:13:21 UTC
Defying wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Defying wrote:
Once again you are wrong.
Prove it.





Easyly


1.) Translate IP to domain mask

2.) Use domain mask to pin point household

3.) Do a database query for every account in that house hold

4.) Separate database logs via mac addresses and you have the individual computers with in the household

So this is the easy part.. here we have a list of accounts, that could be one persons or could be multiples of people in the house hold. So things get a little tricky at this point, and the way my former company did it (with about 98% success rate)

5.) We took a chat log from a player for 15 days, and then ran more database queries on the chat logs, to look for commonly misspelled words across those accounts.


See what your narrow mind is forgetting, is that just because we act under animosity here on eve. Our habits do not change, the way we spell words the way that we structor sentences, and the words we use are all reflected across our alts.

Sure if you try to do a query like this all across eve's database it wont return ****, but after you narrow it down based on house hold.. its cake to see which accounts are owned by specific people.

It is also the same way that you look to see if someone is "Sharing an account".....


It was called project "Habitating Habits" where I worked....


You are foolish and narrow sighted, but don't worry maybe one day one of YOUR GUESSES will come up correct.


Ohh and other things you can look for:

When accounts login
What accounts area already logged when that account logs in
Player trades and contracts


Do you need more answers? Because I have more... I just don't really feel like typing them out if you are just going to give me a lame one word response....


Thanks for taking the time to provide your input. I wish more of the gaming community would take a stand against the forum trolls. Most dont care or bother because they dont have the time or the desire to constantly argue. They win thru attrition.

I remember one Saturday I decided I wasnt going to give up and give in to their tactics for some off the wall topic. I wasted my whole day stating my point until they finally got to the point of asking the same question over and over until finally the thread was locked.

So I have learned it doesnt matter how valid the point or how accurate your facts they will dismiss what they dont like or agree with.

I wish I had that day back Sad
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#67 - 2013-05-08 03:19:40 UTC
Agent Titsaria wrote:
Since when eve is an online comunity of around 500k?

I see people loving the smell of their own farts on a dailly basis bullshiting themselves and others about this number.

Only CCP knows the real amount of actual individual players but if this was 'the price is right' show i'd bet all I have on no more than 20-25k.

EVE is great and all that but some people should get their heads out from that hole in the ground and face the fence.


You get a ten page thread here just for saying the sky is blue. Everyone knows what CCP is really saying and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong.

The fact is, you are right. We don't really know. But the big question I have is, does it even matter? People or alts? It's all the same since they all pay for a subscription.

500k is 500k either way.

Mr Epeen Cool
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#68 - 2013-05-08 03:38:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Awww… schnookums. One of these days, your random guesses will accidentally coincide with actual facts, and you'll be able to feel what it's right to have said something that's correct. Don't worry.


The problem is that if he is ever accidentally right (even a broken clock is right twice a day....unless it's digital lol), I doubt he'd even know it.

But isn't it so much easier to just be mad at others for being right and reasonable than it is to be mad at yourself for being dumb?

lulz all around.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#69 - 2013-05-08 03:39:40 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Bonjur


Since when is "Bonjur" french for "Damn my booty hurts, I must lash out at those of superior intellect"?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2013-05-08 04:21:32 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to provide your input. I wish more of the gaming community would take a stand against the forum trolls.
We already do. That's why you're being challenged when you make such nonsensical and obviously incorrect claims; even more so when you can't actually back them up and have to resort to ad hominems.

Quote:
I remember one Saturday I decided I wasnt going to give up and give in to their tactics for some off the wall topic. I wasted my whole day stating my point until they finally got to the point of asking the same question over and over until finally the thread was locked.
So you admit you were trolling then: you refused to actually engage in any kind of argumentation or discuss the topic at hand.

Quote:
I wish I had that day back Sad
You almost can: just stop trolling. It'll do you (and the rest of us) no end of good.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#71 - 2013-05-08 04:28:53 UTC
Only on GD would reasoned discussion be considered a form of trolling.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#72 - 2013-05-08 04:29:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Awww… schnookums. One of these days, your random guesses will accidentally coincide with actual facts, and you'll be able to feel what it's right to have said something that's correct. Don't worry.


The problem is that if he is ever accidentally right (even a broken clock is right twice a day....unless it's digital lol), I doubt he'd even know it.

But isn't it so much easier to just be mad at others for being right and reasonable than it is to be mad at yourself for being dumb?

lulz all around.


I am not the one that has to always be right. Most things are a matter of perspective. I am certainly not mad at other peoples perspectives. Things wont change until you change the way you look at things. I am happy with my current level of education or lack of even. I am happy I don't excel at trolling, should this be your standard for measuring your perceived intelligence.

If I were as smart as I really want to be, I certainly wouldn't waste my time with you or your troll friends.

What does bother me is the the clear pattern that yourself and the trolls like you demonstrate in thread after thread that you dislike or don't agree with. You continue to troll the topic to the point it becomes locked.

I would ask CCP and the moderators to lock less threads and send more trolls on vacation
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#73 - 2013-05-08 04:45:25 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Most things are a matter of perspective


That's just, like, your opinion, man.

In all seriousness, everything is ultimately subjective, as we use imperfect sensory and neurological machinery to perceive an objective outside world. However, the whole point of discourse is to arrive at workable solutions that allow us to coordinate collectively to interact with that outside world and each other.

Running to relativism every time someone challenges your beliefs or ideas is raw cowardice, plain and simple. We all know that we are each the final arbiters of our subjective perceptions, but engaging in discourse on a topic presumes that some beneficial mutual understanding can be reached through reason and empiricism. Nobody cares about your subjective beliefs that you don't want to expose to discourse, and putting them out there sets them up to be challenged by people.

If everything is just a matter of perspective, then keep your perspective to yourself; doing otherwise then invalidates you from running to relativism after your beliefs are trounced by others.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#74 - 2013-05-08 04:57:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to provide your input. I wish more of the gaming community would take a stand against the forum trolls.
We already do. That's why you're being challenged when you make such nonsensical and obviously incorrect claims; even more so when you can't actually back them up and have to resort to ad hominems.

Quote:
I remember one Saturday I decided I wasnt going to give up and give in to their tactics for some off the wall topic. I wasted my whole day stating my point until they finally got to the point of asking the same question over and over until finally the thread was locked.
So you admit you were trolling then: you refused to actually engage in any kind of argumentation or discuss the topic at hand.

Quote:
I wish I had that day back Sad
You almost can: just stop trolling. It'll do you (and the rest of us) no end of good.


I admit to taking a stand and not giving in to your standard practice of trolling people until they give up or lack the time to post 23/7 because you disagree with how they see things and have that need to always be right or feel you won an argument.

I think this would be a very simple matter of record. Should anyone care enough to go thru the countless locked topics I feel certain you would see a clear and indisputable pattern of the same names over and over trolling a thread until it becomes locked.

If CCP or the moderators dont care enough than neither shall I.

I would wager one would be very hard pressed at best to find a locked thread that you are not part of....I could be wrong....OR NOT....Sad
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#75 - 2013-05-08 05:27:18 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Most things are a matter of perspective


That's just, like, your opinion, man.

In all seriousness, everything is ultimately subjective, as we use imperfect sensory and neurological machinery to perceive an objective outside world. However, the whole point of discourse is to arrive at workable solutions that allow us to coordinate collectively to interact with that outside world and each other.

Running to relativism every time someone challenges your beliefs or ideas is raw cowardice, plain and simple. We all know that we are each the final arbiters of our subjective perceptions, but engaging in discourse on a topic presumes that some beneficial mutual understanding can be reached through reason and empiricism. Nobody cares about your subjective beliefs that you don't want to expose to discourse, and putting them out there sets them up to be challenged by people.

If everything is just a matter of perspective, then keep your perspective to yourself; doing otherwise then invalidates you from running to relativism after your beliefs are trounced by others.


LOL to funny. Nice text book physcology. Good use of copy and paste. To bad you didn't seem to understand what you copied and pasted.

I am not the OP who's whole point of discourse is to arrive at workable solutions that allow us to coordinate collectively to interact with that outside world and each other. (my copy and paste works also..cool) Wow seems just as meaningless and empty as when you pasted it.

My point is clearly that when anyone post something the forum trolls disagree with the final arbiters of our subjective perceptions, but engaging in discourse on a topic presumes that some beneficial mutual understanding can be reached through reason and empiricism. (wow worked again) This part never happens because they don't discuss, they troll and get the topic locked.

People are going to disagree. Some people handle it differently. Some just troll to get the topic locked in hopes they had the last reply in to help them feel like they won something.

The pattern is there, its clear and is indisputable but I am sure you will find a way.

I
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#76 - 2013-05-08 05:32:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

I admit to taking a stand and not giving in to your standard practice of trolling people until they give up or lack the time to post 23/7 because you disagree with how they see things and have that need to always be right or feel you won an argument.
…except that pointing out obvious flaws in people's reasoning and demonstrating that there is a reasonable explanation for the position they are attacking is not trolling. I'm presenting you with facts and figures that tie them together; you offer nothing but abuse to try (and fail) to disprove them. The simple fact remains: the OP's numbers are complete nonsense and does not fit with easily available statistics. 500k subscribers matches very well with the kind of server numbers you'd see given some reasonable assumptions regarding player behaviour — if anything, it seems a bit low.

If you are so negatively disposed towards trolling, how abou you do the exact opposite of what you're doing now? How about you address the facts an reasoning rather than heap on the abuse? How about you present an argument rather than some unfoubden an nonsensical trolling?

Quote:
My point is clearly that when anyone post something the forum trolls disagree with the final arbiters of our subjective perceptions, but engaging in discourse on a topic presumes that some beneficial mutual understanding can be reached through reason and empiricism. (wow worked again) This part never happens because they don't discuss, they troll and get the topic locked.
That's just it, though: it's not a matter of opinion — it's a matter of fact and of the OP pulling numbers out of his lower back that do not match these facts (and of you agreeing with these counterfactual numbers for no adequate reason). You're quite right though: you don't discuss. You just go directly for the abuse.

Quote:
I think this would be a very simple matter of record. Should anyone care enough to go thru the countless locked topics I feel certain you would see a clear and indisputable pattern of the same names over and over trolling a thread until it becomes locked.
Probably. You'd also notice a pattern of me pushing them into a corner by questioning their lack of reasoning and ther reliance on fallacies and personal abuse to the point where it becomes obvious that they are trolls (or where they just admit it outright). Locks usually ensue such confessions.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#77 - 2013-05-08 05:36:24 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Some just troll to get the topic locked in hopes they had the last reply in to help them feel like they won something.

The pattern is there, its clear and is indisputable but I am sure you will find a way.


It is extremely disputable, but why don't you start, considering it's your assertion.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#78 - 2013-05-08 05:44:34 UTC
Defying wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Defying wrote:
Once again you are wrong.
Prove it.





Easyly


1.) Translate IP to domain mask

2.) Use domain mask to pin point household

3.) Do a database query for every account in that house hold

4.) Separate database logs via mac addresses and you have the individual computers with in the household

So this is the easy part.. here we have a list of accounts, that could be one persons or could be multiples of people in the house hold. So things get a little tricky at this point, and the way my former company did it (with about 98% success rate)

5.) We took a chat log from a player for 15 days, and then ran more database queries on the chat logs, to look for commonly misspelled words across those accounts.


See what your narrow mind is forgetting, is that just because we act under animosity here on eve. Our habits do not change, the way we spell words the way that we structor sentences, and the words we use are all reflected across our alts.

Sure if you try to do a query like this all across eve's database it wont return ****, but after you narrow it down based on house hold.. its cake to see which accounts are owned by specific people.

It is also the same way that you look to see if someone is "Sharing an account".....


It was called project "Habitating Habits" where I worked....


You are foolish and narrow sighted, but don't worry maybe one day one of YOUR GUESSES will come up correct.


Ohh and other things you can look for:

When accounts login
What accounts area already logged when that account logs in
Player trades and contracts


Do you need more answers? Because I have more... I just don't really feel like typing them out if you are just going to give me a lame one word response....


This person proved you wrong beyond any reasonable doubt, yet you continue and counter with nothing but fluff. There were no flaws in his reasoning. This would be a clear example of you refusing to accept that not only could you be wrong but that in FACT you were wrong yet you cant acknowledge or admit it.

I never offer abuse only ask that the pattern of your trolling and those patterns of others like you be looked at as to why they are allowed to continue with no repercussions.
Tub Chil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-05-08 05:51:28 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Any one that plays sees the server population. Weekends it can reach 50kish. Most times the op is correct ~25k. Initially I thought the 500k number may have been life time subs for EVE. There are a lot of Asians but 450k? on one server? Doubtful.

Dat logic
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#80 - 2013-05-08 05:54:10 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

This person proved you wrong beyond any reasonable doubt, yet you continue and counter with nothing but fluff.
No, I (and others) responded with specific points of criticisms, and with facts that contradict his claims.

Quote:
This would be a clear example of you refusing to accept that not only could you be wrong but that in FACT you were wrong yet you cant acknowledge or admit it.
…aside from the whole acknowledging that there might be merit to some of it, but that it's still problematic, you mean?

Quote:
I never offer abuse
…aside from calling people trolls for providing facts and reasoning that show your position to be uninformed.