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Missles really gimped.

Author
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#41 - 2013-05-07 11:53:35 UTC
Kessel Rock wrote:
I've tried playing this game a few times over the past 6 years. and i always felt missiles were awesome. I come back this time and im completely gimped. i used to be able to blow through anoms with 0 problems. i come back to the game try to do it and lose 3 ships.

I get in my ship that i just used to rat belts (dont have good skills with guns all my skills are in missiles) all gun weapons and rip through anoms.

my Raven kills soooo slow yet my POS little crap ship DPS is 2X higher with 50% less skills.

Belt rats and BS missiles haven't changed a lot in the last few years.

I'm inclined to blame your piloting skills being rusty. =/

Regardless of the cause, you could make a thread in Missions and Complexes (with some extra information) for some help.
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-05-07 12:54:53 UTC
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
Klymer wrote:
What kinda range does a 600dps rupture have?


They can get around, or close to that dps under 5000m. After 5000m it drops a bit, but it's still a lot higher then ham dps.

And while hams can fight out to 24 km, you wont have ur target webbed at that range and therefore your damage will be nothing due to exp velocity. Also, Caldari cruisers like the caracal don't kite well, they can't keep the mwd on for well over a min with everything else active usually.



Wibble Wibble.

Blow it out of your reaR!

Rupture - 600DPS at ooo 4k - then down to bugger all at 24k. Wrecking hits and misses. Many many more misses as range leaves 4k. So you have to get in close, and fit scram/web if you can, and suffer while kiting missile boat controls range if it has any sense. My god - amazing - at 20k you missiles hit, and at 10, and at 5 and ALWAYS FOR F SAKE. In this case - range and speed are your tank - not the totally PVE oriented fits you appear to live by. GROW ONE FFS and do some pvp. Turrents have drawbacks, try them and you would know. Don't speculate and spout crap.

Why are there so many totally cretinous missile users out there?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-05-07 22:40:02 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
sabre906 wrote:

Ever wondered why drakes that show up on kms so often have their light drones instead of hmls listed as primary dmg dealers? There are reasons for that.


It's because drones have a higher activation rate compared to HMLs Roll
It's going by which module/thingy cycled the most times on that target, so in case of LR-fits, drones normally win.


especially if rolling with lots of gun boats.


I ran drakes before drake train. YOu get like 10 of your boys hitting a target SR spec'd in harbs and canes....those drones hit faster than the missile salvo's do. And since your boys are popping stuff quick, you don't get a chance to have missiles catch up with more damage. Short of a cap kill anyway. They live long enough to let the missle damage points build up decent.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-05-08 02:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Incindir Mauser
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
In terms of missles cruiser sized and up, (heavy, heavy assault, torpedos, cruise) missles are really terrible in pvp. It is the only weapon system that actually has to tech down to faction ammo to hit EQUAL sized vessels with any moderate applied dps. For example:

In order to effectivly hit another cruiser in a caldari vessel such as my cara, I have to go from 450 dps with rages, to 380 dps with faction navys, and still hit for crap unless the target is double webbed. Meanwhile, you have ruptures pushing near 600 dps no prob. There is just no contest. Missles are damn near obsolete in pvp. The problem? Explosion radius and explosion velocity. Even with max skills and implants, rage heavy assults have an exp radious around 160 and exp velocity around 150. With those numbers you can kiss almost half of your applied damage goodbye against anything other than a double webbed battlecruiser. It is obsurd.

Please fix this terrible weapon system


Rigor rigs, target painters, webs and HAMS. HML's are ****.

You're underskilled or doing it wrong. Caracals can and will wreck a Ruppy.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#45 - 2013-05-08 04:20:58 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
And if I tell you the rupture fit I use that has 364 dps will beat that 600 dps one every time?

How much you can get your DPS number in EFT has 0 relation to the actual performance of a ship. This is one thing you need to understand before coming to make a whine thread.

Missiles are fine in pvp, they have their advantages and disadvantages just like any other weapon system.

But wait a minute here!

Isn't what's balanced decided only and absolutely by a spreadsheet solo fight between a single ship using the weapons system you think is underpowered vs another ships fit with a counter fit operating in a situation that leaves circumstances in its favor with no mention to both ships and weapons various upsides and downsides in other situations?

If not then this forum has been lying to me all this time. Shocked



Calm down, hon, calm down. Deeeeeep breath...

What's "balance" is still decided by nullsec crybabies squealing "MAH F1-MONKEY FLEET CAN'T ALPHA DIS IN WUN SHOOTZ!! GIEF NUFF NAOW, CEE CEE PEE!!!111"

Same as it ever was.

In other words, nothing to see here.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#46 - 2013-05-08 04:27:06 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
ehm I wasn't comparing missiles in that instance really, someone said they had a 600 DPS rupture failfit so I had to shoot it down :3

I don't shoot cruises in pvp, I got over self-harm about 10 years ago.


You do get close to 600 dps with Hail and drones. As paper-warrioring as Hail is, it's closer to reality than the 600 kinetic dps drake with Fury heavies, which everyone and their mother cites as the reason why missiles are OP.

Ever wondered why drakes that show up on kms so often have their light drones instead of hmls listed as primary dmg dealers? There are reasons for that.


you could run with rigors and flares and a painter...........nobody would know!


Painter yes, but not the missile rigs on a Drake, at least not if you want any kind of tank/prop-jam/gank in the other slots: Nowhere near enough CPU.

Most of my "co-main's" kills the last time I did any real PvP (small-gang roaming and wardec mainly) were/are in an HM Drake.

But then, I know how missiles really work (and moreover where they don't work) unlike all the idiots screaming for them to be ruined nerfed, too.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2013-05-08 09:16:16 UTC
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
@Lloyd: Wouldn't a Tengu in general make more sense instead of Legion? Approximately same dps for non-scourge and much higher dps for scourge assault missiles? But using Wolf Rayet as an excuse to not fly shiled tanked Tengu, which performs in general better with missiles is a little bit "unfair".

Well, because it's wormholers in this particular case. They tend to use shield doctrines only in pulsar systems and when roaming low/null. Everywhere else it's armor, which Tengu doesn't really do well.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-05-08 12:08:45 UTC
Even for roams armour is attractive if you can afford a logi or two - armour tanks mean better tackle, etc. Nothing like your entire gang having points and webs to make the other guy's life miserable.
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2013-05-08 12:32:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffi Flaffi
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
@Lloyd: Wouldn't a Tengu in general make more sense instead of Legion? Approximately same dps for non-scourge and much higher dps for scourge assault missiles? But using Wolf Rayet as an excuse to not fly shiled tanked Tengu, which performs in general better with missiles is a little bit "unfair".

Well, because it's wormholers in this particular case. They tend to use shield doctrines only in pulsar systems and when roaming low/null. Everywhere else it's armor, which Tengu doesn't really do well.


Roll

Thanks for writing down the same content like I do.
It's not really helpful to post an opinion by using an exception like Wolf Rayet WH. That's not helpful in this case!

That's the same like the post above me. Armor and Shield have both advantages and disadvantages (armor tanks in general mean therefore worse agility and less damage mods or less tank and to be honest not every ship in a fleet needs full tackle stuff). It's not that there are shield logis out as well, etc. But nothing to be discussed here. The point of interest have been missiles, not fleet doctrines or special Wormhole effects or something like this.
Major Lunartik
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#50 - 2013-05-08 13:06:48 UTC
missiles are broken?, ahh, thats why I can't solo all my level 4 missions in that Cara Cry

as you were friends, the rest may continue scratching your heads.

Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-05-08 16:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ziester
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
In terms of missles cruiser sized and up, (heavy, heavy assault, torpedos, cruise) missles are really terrible in pvp. It is the only weapon system that actually has to tech down to faction ammo to hit EQUAL sized vessels with any moderate applied dps. For example:

In order to effectivly hit another cruiser in a caldari vessel such as my cara, I have to go from 450 dps with rages, to 380 dps with faction navys, and still hit for crap unless the target is double webbed. Meanwhile, you have ruptures pushing near 600 dps no prob. There is just no contest. Missles are damn near obsolete in pvp. The problem? Explosion radius and explosion velocity. Even with max skills and implants, rage heavy assults have an exp radious around 160 and exp velocity around 150. With those numbers you can kiss almost half of your applied damage goodbye against anything other than a double webbed battlecruiser. It is obsurd.

Please fix this terrible weapon system

Fit a Target Painter, problem solved.
Actually, don't fly a Caldari ship alone for PvP. (Except a Tengu maybe)
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#52 - 2013-05-09 13:26:59 UTC
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
Klymer wrote:
What kinda range does a 600dps rupture have?


They can get around, or close to that dps under 5000m. After 5000m it drops a bit, but it's still a lot higher then ham dps.

And while hams can fight out to 24 km, you wont have ur target webbed at that range and therefore your damage will be nothing due to exp velocity. Also, Caldari cruisers like the caracal don't kite well, they can't keep the mwd on for well over a min with everything else active usually.


Just like before I can see where you're coming from but if you really think HAMs are 'low dps' you're quite wrong. Look at my recent killboard activity to see what I'm talking about. HAMs are reasonably good, their biggest failure is the short range.

There are a couple of threads around looking at missiles in a general sense and conversation generally centers around either adding more modules for missiles to increase damage application (and EWAR against missiles ergo tracking disruptors) or for as I support especially - a decrease in explosion radius for missiles/torps.

Heavy missiles got spanked hard possibly even unreasonably hard to the degree I can only assume CCP are hamfisting people in to training for other weapons systems. OK I can dig diversifying the game a bit but the idea is supposed to be about making the other systems competitive not making a moot point of one system alone. Heavy missiles got hit with too many nerfs all at once without a corresponding increase in other areas to compensate, and I quote various in-game sources "because HML tengus are too strong with too much range". Instead of nerfing tengu specific bonuses they attacked the weapon itself which was not especially strong outside specific fleet doctrines or mission drakes.

I'll admit at this point that I have only read the first page of this thread but if you are supporting a decrease in sig radius for explosions you have my full support. It is in my opinion going to be the only noteworthy change to missile systems for a long time.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#53 - 2013-05-09 13:46:25 UTC
I think the biggest problem I see is that weapons in a general sense scale really poorly/weirdly. ALL FIGURES BELOW ARE WITHOUT CONSIDERATION TO BASE HULL BONUSES THEY ARE A ROUGH GUIDELINE ONLY

Rockets - All V hawk

javelin > 22km
navy > 15km
rage > 12.7

Light missiles - All 5 hawk

Precision > 31.6km
navy > 63km
Fury > 47.5

Heavy missiles - All 5 caracal

Precision > 31.4
navy > 62km
fury > 47km

HAMs - all 5 caracal

javelin > 68.3km
navy > 45km
rage > 38km

Cruise missiles - (current values) Raven all 5's

Precision > 130km
navy > 260km
Fury > 196km

Torps - raven all 5

Javelin > 46km
Navy > 30km
Rage > 25km

Just a quick look at that can tell you some very important details about these weapons systems. Such as: they don't have any real logical progresson, they have ranges all over the place, their explosion radius' are not sensible, their velocities are a mess, their delayed damage hurts in pvp. Numerous other statements.

Reducing explosion radius's will be an important first step in fixing missiles properly, but also giving battleship missiles actual battleship ranges. Torps should hit out to 60km. That's just my opinion but I feel it fits what a battleship is supposed to be: a hard hitting monster with a tough shell and a big engagement range.

Artillery have the biggest alpha in the game but I wonder if that title shouldn't belong to missiles especially rockets/HAMs/torps as these weapons sacrifice so much already under the current system in exchange for mediocre application and mid-level dps.
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-05-09 14:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Retard
Caleb Seremshur wrote:

Just like before I can see where you're coming from but if you really think HAMs are 'low dps' you're quite wrong. Look at my recent killboard activity to see what I'm talking about. HAMs are reasonably good, their biggest failure is the short range.


Short range - no - again PLEASE GOD - try a turret boat - short range, high DPS is 10k and under. At 30k HAM range, medium autos and blasters are woefully bad - missing a lot, and hitting for tiny damage. My artillery tracks for **** at 30k and full damage ammo maxes out at 20k - falloff thereafter - at 30k its half the DPS - I need to get traversal right, I need to web or paint or improve tracking to assist.

If anything, HAMs are too long range. They ALWAYS hit, always for the same very good DPS etc etc. I wish my autocannons would do the same (not really).

Of course, target size, velocity (traversal'esque') mean full DPS isnt always applied, sooooo ... just like any other close range boat - you fit scram, webs etc etc. This brings you in closer by design. Try hitting a frig with medium turrets when hes in tight orbit - bet your missiles still hit - bet they hit harder when hes webbed/painted.

The problem with the majority of missile users is they dont PVP so they just moan that damage is crap because they dont understand that you have to tie a target down to kill it. I love the current crop of drakes with HAMS and web and scram - willing to do what all closein turret boats do, and hold their target and apply DPS.

Take a huggin or rapier if you want to kite outside your targets web range - they work for both turrents and missiles.

Heyy - why not make missiles lose damage the further out theyre fired from. Make the 'fuel' be thermal damage, say 25% - as it burns to close on the target it loses fuel and so that 25% goes down until at max range its only the other main damage thats applied. Just like autos and blasters - you would close in to get more dps - but HAMS at 30k would be 75% of their possible max DPS. Voila - balanced.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#55 - 2013-05-09 17:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
sabre906 wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
ehm I wasn't comparing missiles in that instance really, someone said they had a 600 DPS rupture failfit so I had to shoot it down :3

I don't shoot cruises in pvp, I got over self-harm about 10 years ago.


You do get close to 600 dps with Hail and drones. As paper-warrioring as Hail is, it's closer to reality than the 600 kinetic dps drake with Fury heavies, which everyone and their mother cites as the reason why missiles are OP.

Ever wondered why drakes that show up on kms so often have their light drones instead of hmls listed as primary dmg dealers? There are reasons for that.

Yes, there are reasons for that.

The weapons system listed on a kill mail is the one that did the final blow from you to the target (or was the module last active on the target) before it died, not the one that dealt the most overall damage.

Unless you feel that your webs dealt more damage than your autocannons in many cases. Smile

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