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How to execute a double envelopment in EVE online
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ImmutableDark
Absalom.
#21 - 2011-11-03 04:42:03 UTC
This is pretty much the most stupid irrelevant thing I've seen. The topic barely correlates with the content it's like he's trolling me with his own stupidity.
Will Strafe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-11-03 13:36:39 UTC
My FCs have always used the Orcs at Helms Deep tactics. Of course, at the end Gandalf always show up in a Carrier.
Will Strafe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-11-03 13:37:32 UTC
ImmutableDark wrote:
This is pretty much the most stupid irrelevant thing I've seen. The topic barely correlates with the content it's like he's trolling me with his own stupidity.


Mate, I think you are a victim of your own stupidity, not someone elses.
Mrchafe
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2011-11-04 02:38:45 UTC
Honestly i dont see why people are bad mouthing you this is a great strategy and by the use of the term "wall" Is having a few ship able to lock the person down so they can't warp and have to run to the gate to face the same thing on the other side. Not a literal wall of ships.

Props
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#25 - 2011-11-04 02:52:27 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
True.

Many quote "Art of War" beacause they thing that makes the cool FCs.


I was re-reading Art of War yesterday with the intent of seeing what could be applied to Eve. Quite a bit of it can be (I have a paste-dump file full of quotes I'm working through) but not in any directly tactical sense. AoW was written in a time when the crossbow was high-tech weaponry.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Nicholai Thomasovich
Astroco
Straight Jacket Bears
#26 - 2011-11-04 14:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicholai Thomasovich
First, there's some confusion here as to tactics versus strategy. Tactics win battles. Strategy wins wars.

Some real-world tactics will translate to Internet Spaceships. Some won't. Nearly all real-world strategy will.

A double-envelopment has absolutely no equivalent in EVE. It requires flanks - something that EVE doesn't have. What you're describing with the gates is simply trapping an enemy - not even close to a double-envelopment.

Reading about military tactics on Wikipedia doesn't make you a subject matter expert. Unless your real-world job involves military tactics and strategy, you should probably just stick to Internet Spaceships tactics and strategy.
Jitas Prostitute
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-11-05 00:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Also known as the pincer movement... This is a military tactic that has been employed with success since ancient times.... perhaps the most notable example of which was at the battle of Cannae in 216 BC where Hannibal entrapped and killed IIRC something on the order of 85000 Roman soldiers in one day. This is still considered, after all these years, one of the most stunning military victories of all time.

Obviously such a manoeuvre is difficult to execute in an eve online context because fleets are able to turn an manoeuvre in ways in which the Romans were not..... never the less, a modified version of this tactic is still possible in our little online universe.

In order to execute such a move, one needs to build multiple levels of "walls" in which the enemy is unable to advance but also unable to retreat.

The clearest example can be illustrated by something that I experienced myself several years ago. I was going ratting and jumped through a gate in a battleship.... on the other side, a small force was waiting for me. I held my cloak and let my ship recharge as much as I could and then burned back to the gate and jumped through...under heavy fire. at that point, a small force was waiting for me on that side too.... I waited, went back to the gate and jumped through... each time waiting as long as possible for my ship to recharge before uncloaking.

I went back and forth through that gate several times but each time more weakened than the time before and, of course, the end was inevitable. I blew up. That's a double invelopment on a small scale on eve online terms.... cut off the way ahead and cut off the way back.

This kind of thing can be done on a larger scale as well. In a more recent example, a fleet I was in was in-system and fighting a significant SC force. Unable to hurt them we decided to retreat but the exit gate was blocked on both sides by smaller fleets of conventional ships. On each side the fleet was about 2/3 of our size (of course people in the fleet were saying, "let's fight them" ) but aggressing would have opened the door for the "waiting" side to jump through and then they would have been larger and better armed than we were and we would be unable to retreat.....

This is double invelopment a la EVE online and one of the core skills expected of even the most inexperienced of FC's. In Hannibal's time it was genius. In our time it's a given that you can do this. For budding FC's I hope you can learn something from this.

T-


Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.

Please keep it civil. Spitfire

I always have Sun Tzu and General Patton quotes close by when I PvP in this internet spaceship video game, eve online.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-11-05 00:48:22 UTC
Mrchafe wrote:
Honestly i dont see why people are bad mouthing you


He's being badmouthed because its a bloody obvious tactic dressed up in professionalism. Cover the other side of the gate, duh.

That said I have escaped 30+ frigates that I aggressed on a gate in a dominix by deaggressing, jumping and warping off. Caldari militia though, should be expected I guess.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-11-05 03:19:58 UTC
The problem here is that the OP is dressing up obvious things in armchair general words.

Since there are no flanks in eve you can't attack them. End of.

As for anything else... basically the way you win any fight in eve is to trap a smaller force and kill it with a bigger/better force. That's it. Yes, you need to cut off avenues of retreat whatever that may be, but you shouldn't call it anything cleverer than that.
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#30 - 2011-11-05 03:40:59 UTC
I have the sudden and inexplicable urge to link this clip from Blackadder Goes Forth.


I don't even...
Mitamonehjsd
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-11-09 15:53:28 UTC
Jitas Prostitute wrote:
Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.


Listen to the prostitute... she knows the importance of the troops morale.
Darzia Bien
Doomheim
#32 - 2011-11-10 19:46:44 UTC
Eve tactics.

1) Fleet up, 2) Argue about fits - usually one of the arguers has a small penis, 3) Fly to place, 4) Hang around for ages, 5) Pew Pew (which consists of A) Get to Optimal and orbit, and B) Fire OR - RUN AWAYYYY!).

That really is it. Anyone saying anything else is kidding themselves. The only thing that really makes a difference is fitting - and having the brains to know when to try to run to prevent a loss. That's it. Other than that, you just engage every active module, overheat when close to victory/death, and try to abuse the transversal. It is pretty simplistic really.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#33 - 2011-11-10 20:21:54 UTC
I always have Sun Tzu and General Patton quotes close by when I PvP in this internet spaceship video game, eve online.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-11-10 20:38:48 UTC
Darzia Bien wrote:
Eve tactics.

1) Fleet up, 2)Play EOH for an hour or two 3) Fly Around, 4) Blob some guy coming through a gate, or get blobbed by a much bigger group 5) Go play BF3

That really is it. Anyone saying anything else is kidding themselves. The only thing that really makes a difference is fitting - and having the brains to know when to try to run to prevent a loss. That's it. Other than that, you just engage every active module, overheat when close to victory/death, and try to abuse the transversal. It is pretty simplistic really.


FYP

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#35 - 2011-11-22 12:10:21 UTC
Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.

We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.

Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.

T-
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2011-11-22 12:33:20 UTC
This reminds me of the day our FC crashed and someone in fleet incorporated William Wallace.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-11-22 13:12:21 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.

We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.

Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.

T-


Laughing at you because everything you're saying can be filed under "**** we already know"

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#38 - 2011-11-22 13:31:42 UTC
Desudes wrote:
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.

We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.

Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.

T-


Laughing at you because everything you're saying can be filed under "**** we already know"


LOL

Were you there? Did you recognise the dual envolopment tactic when it happened? Did you understand why your FC was giving the commands he did? Did you hear the "click" when the pincer closed? Did you experience the enemy pressing the "panic" button?

Or were you sitting in Jita asking people to send you isk so you could double it?

Personally, I think the right to critique what happens in EVE's biggest battles should be backed up by evidence of experience.

T-
Kari Trace
#39 - 2011-11-22 18:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kari Trace
I'm with you Tinu Moorhsum.

We executed a success pincer maneuver (though on a smaller scale than your engagement) and successfully killed 75% of the opposition while having zero losses on our side.


Others who think tactics do not matter: Q) Why is the `Art of War` a required reading in any good business college? A) Because tactics are applicable in any field of action.

I like making things explode.

Kari Trace
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-11-23 02:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Desudes
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Desudes wrote:
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.

We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.

Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.

T-


Laughing at you because everything you're saying can be filed under "**** we already know"


LOL

Were you there? Did you recognise the dual envolopment tactic when it happened? Did you understand why your FC was giving the commands he did? Did you hear the "click" when the pincer closed? Did you experience the enemy pressing the "panic" button?

Or were you sitting in Jita asking people to send you isk so you could double it?

Personally, I think the right to critique what happens in EVE's biggest battles should be backed up by evidence of experience.

T-


The only specific doingness I've heard from you is having people on both sides of the gate and splitting up a superior force to pincer in a lesser (2 weaker forces that total stronger then opposition).

Neither of those will be the deciding factor in a fight where you were outnumbered 100, with big supercap disadvantage as well.

I'm all ears for a brilliant tactical play but so far all you said is the name of a real life military maneuver without saying anything to indicate it is either A) new, or B) difficult to pull off


Actually I just reread your original post and you yourself say it is expected for this stuff to be known and you're surprised when nobody cares that you did it?


Kari Trace wrote:
I'm with you Tinu Moorhsum.

We executed a success pincer maneuver (though on a smaller scale than your engagement) and successfully killed 75% of the opposition while having zero losses on our side.


Others who think tactics do not matter: Q) Why is the `Art of War` a required reading in any good business college? A) Because tactics are applicable in any field of action.


Of course tactics matter, but you don't need to read 'Art of War' to realize putting guys on both sides of a gate(or having some ready to jump) is gate camping done right o.O The first time someone burns back to a gate and jumps on you is education enough.



That being said I successfully engaged a 30+ frigate swarm in a lone domi, deaggressed, jumped and warped to safety but hey, Caldari Militia, what do you expect.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
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