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Why 500k?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#41 - 2013-05-07 21:32:10 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

Great work at making your own numbers. These have to be accurate and true.
No. Just plausible and based on some kind of logic about player behaviour.

Great work not coming up with anything to counter the actual facts, though.

Quote:
To bad all you have is ASSupmtions.
Good thing I have plenty of facts too, and that as it turns out, the server usage comes out very close to the actual stats even if you just use some sensible ball-park figures.

…so I think you might be confusing me with you and the OP here.
Brutus King
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-05-07 21:34:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

Great work at making your own numbers. These have to be accurate and true.
No. Just plausible and based on some kind of logic about player behaviour.

Great work not coming up with anything to counter the actual facts, though.

Quote:
To bad all you have is ASSupmtions.
Good thing I have plenty of facts too, and that as it turns out, the server usage comes out very close to the actual stats even if you just use some sensible ball-park figures.

…so I think you might be confusing me with you and the OP here.


Consistently accurate to the point of tedium.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#43 - 2013-05-07 22:14:19 UTC
Bonjur
Josefine Etrange
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-05-07 22:20:19 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Yes yes, we all know that Eve is full of Alts.


Were all fine with it.

Move along.


Please speak for yourself. Personally, I believe alts take away from the immersion and consequences of an otherwise fairly elegant game design.


I have to agree. They make things that should evolve risk nearly risk free. We should get a hacking skill worth its name to actually track down alts to their masters.
Got scammed? Follow the money flow till you find the instigators. (don´t forget to include trades, etc into the logs)
Defying
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-05-07 22:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Defying
Tippia wrote:
Concurssi Mellenar wrote:
I've only ever heard talk of subscriber counts, not accounts.
In The Butterfly Effect video, a phrase that goes something along the lines of "your actions could touch the lives of more than 300000 people in 230 countries". People, not accounts. And that video was made some time ago.
These days, I've heard talk of there being 500000 subscribers. Not accounts.
Welcome to marketing. The numbers are always accounts, not people. Mainly because there's no reliable way of counting actual people — at best, you can generalise numbers from polling data (which will have a significant self-selection bias among those with more accounts).

E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Any one that plays sees the server population. Weekends it can reach 50kish. Most times the op is correct ~25k.
…except that this would assume that every last player is always online 23.5/7. So no, the OP is ridiculously incorrect.




No reliable way of counting people?


Ok welcoming to databases:


GET * FROM users WHERE creditcard = "3333"

GET * FROM users WHERE address = ""

GET * FROM users WHERE anything = "anything"


If you fill your account information out wrong, you are in violation of the EULA and you can be banned for that..... How do you think eve knows how to ban all the players alt accounts of needed?


The fact you think eve does not have a pretty good idea of the amount of players that player their game is laughable to say the least. As a former DBA for an mmo, I can say you are so wrong that its comical.

Further more, after reading the rest of your posts, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2013-05-07 22:34:28 UTC
Defying wrote:
No reliable way of counting people?
Since it's entirely possible to create an account without providing any kind of accurate or identifying information, and since none of the means of collecting client data from the outside points to it being used by any given person (or persons), yes: no reliable way.

E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Bonjur
Awww… schnookums. One of these days, your random guesses will accidentally coincide with actual facts, and you'll be able to feel what it's right to have said something that's correct. Don't worry.
Defying
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-05-07 22:42:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Defying wrote:
No reliable way of counting people?
Since it's entirely possible to create an account without providing any kind of accurate or identifying information, and since none of the means of collecting client data from the outside points to it being used by any given person (or persons), yes: no reliable way.

E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Bonjur
Awww… schnookums. One of these days, your random guesses will accidentally coincide with actual facts, and you'll be able to feel what it's right to have said something that's correct. Don't worry.



Once again you are wrong... there are absolutely a metric **** ton of ways to achieve this, but its obvious that you are not a developer so I am going to just end here and walk away..


Learn 2 Code, then come back and talk to us :)


I can think of about 15 ways, that we used to identify if players held multiple accounts or not...

Hell there has been ways to tell sense back when MUDs were the only type of online gaming there was..


Again you have no idea what your talking about...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#48 - 2013-05-07 22:46:46 UTC
Defying wrote:
Once again you are wrong.
Prove it.
Praetor Meles
Black Mount Industrial
Breakpoint.
#49 - 2013-05-07 22:55:01 UTC
Defying wrote:
its obvious that you are not a developer so I am going to just end here and walk away..


Seconded. You must be a developer in order to speak to the quoted character.

[insert random rubbish that irritates you personally] is further evidence that Eve is dying/thriving*

  • delete as required to make your point
Defying
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-05-07 22:56:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Defying wrote:
Once again you are wrong.
Prove it.





Easyly


1.) Translate IP to domain mask

2.) Use domain mask to pin point household

3.) Do a database query for every account in that house hold

4.) Separate database logs via mac addresses and you have the individual computers with in the household

So this is the easy part.. here we have a list of accounts, that could be one persons or could be multiples of people in the house hold. So things get a little tricky at this point, and the way my former company did it (with about 98% success rate)

5.) We took a chat log from a player for 15 days, and then ran more database queries on the chat logs, to look for commonly misspelled words across those accounts.


See what your narrow mind is forgetting, is that just because we act under animosity here on eve. Our habits do not change, the way we spell words the way that we structor sentences, and the words we use are all reflected across our alts.

Sure if you try to do a query like this all across eve's database it wont return ****, but after you narrow it down based on house hold.. its cake to see which accounts are owned by specific people.

It is also the same way that you look to see if someone is "Sharing an account".....


It was called project "Habitating Habits" where I worked....


You are foolish and narrow sighted, but don't worry maybe one day one of YOUR GUESSES will come up correct.


Ohh and other things you can look for:

When accounts login
What accounts area already logged when that account logs in
Player trades and contracts


Do you need more answers? Because I have more... I just don't really feel like typing them out if you are just going to give me a lame one word response....
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#51 - 2013-05-07 23:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Defying wrote:
No reliable way of counting people?

GET * FROM users WHERE creditcard = "3333"

Because people totally can't use credit/debit cards that are under another person's name (like a spouse). Paypal accounts can even be set up under a fake name and funded through cashier's checks that can you buy at the grocery store.... with cash.

Defying wrote:
GET * FROM users WHERE address = ""

Addresses can be faked and/or forged. You can even use P.O. boxes or ask a good friend or neighbor to use his/her address.

I can't tell you the number of times that I have used "123 Fake Street."

Defying wrote:
If you fill your account information out wrong, you are in violation of the EULA and you can be banned for that....

Welcome to the digital age where just about all information can be fabricated and/or redirected. Even IP addresses can be "faked." Just get an IP scrambler or use a proxy.

There really is no way to truly verify someone's location or identity without getting a warrant.

How did you Veterans start?
Defying
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-05-07 23:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Defying
ShahFluffers wrote:
Defying wrote:
No reliable way of counting people?

GET * FROM users WHERE creditcard = "3333"

Because people totally can't use credit/debit cards that are under another person's name (like a spouse). Paypal accounts can even be set up under a fake name and funded through cashier's checks that can you buy at the grocery store.... with cash.

Defying wrote:
GET * FROM users WHERE address = ""

Addresses can be faked and/or forged. You can even use P.O. boxes or ask a good friend or neighbor to use his/her address.

I can't tell you the number of times that I have used "123 Fake Street."

Defying wrote:
If you fill your account information out wrong, you are in violation of the EULA and you can be banned for that....

Welcome to the digital age where just about all information can be fabricated and/or redirected. Even IP addresses can be "faked." Just get an IP scrambler or use a proxy.

There really is no way to truly verify someone's true location or identity without getting a warrant.



Please show me what an IP address scrambler is? I think you mean spoofer, and they will still cause the IP to translate to your host domain...

Its why if you get ip banned and you change your ip.. your still banned......



Proxies also still trace back to your IP addres... please look up "traceroute" and what it does......



WTB some one with networking and development experience as back up here.



Quote:
There really is no way to truly verify someone's true location or identity without getting a warrant.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! So wrong... so very wrong.....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2013-05-07 23:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Defying wrote:
So this is the easy part.. here we have a list of accounts, that could be one persons or could be multiples of people in the house hold. So things get a little tricky at this point, and the way my former company did it (with about 98% success rate)

5.) We took a chat log from a player for 15 days
…which means you're missing out on people who don't provide this metric (and people who have multiple IPs per household). Oh, and how is that “success rate” measured?

Quote:
Ohh and other things you can look for:

When accounts login
What accounts area already logged when that account logs in
Player trades and contracts
…because in a role-separated game, these will obviously create a difference between one player using two accounts, and two players using one each. Roll

Quote:
Do you need more answers?
Yup. Doesn't seem particularly reliable so far.
The reason for this assessment comes from looking at my household: three accounts over six MACs over three IPs, with rather wildly differing log-on times and no chatlogs… how many persons does that translate to?
Defying
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-05-07 23:20:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Defying wrote:
So this is the easy part.. here we have a list of accounts, that could be one persons or could be multiples of people in the house hold. So things get a little tricky at this point, and the way my former company did it (with about 98% success rate)

5.) We took a chat log from a player for 15 days
…which means you're missing out on people who don't provide this metric (and people who have multiple IPs per household). Oh, and how is that “success rate” measured?

Quote:
Ohh and other things you can look for:

When accounts login
What accounts area already logged when that account logs in
Player trades and contracts
…because in a role-separated game, these will obviously create a difference between one player using two accounts, and two players using one each. Roll

Quote:
Do you need more answers?
Yup. Doesn't seem particularly reliable so far.



Multiple IP address still translate to the same host domain....


IP addresses can not be spoofed at the socket level because they are gotten from your first hop ISP not from the client side.... spoofing an IP works for a website but not for client sockets...



The metric was measured by us at the company after we did a survy of about 45k subscribers.

Further more you skipped completely out on the real area and just touched on the parts you could make an argument about. My data is far more reliable then yours because anyone with google or wiki can look it up and see.

A warrant does not do anything but cause a company or ISP to have to release their logs to the government agency.


You find this information out like you find all information out, you look for patterns and habits, for both the technology and the people. Further more we all know that eve has the ability to tell how many clients are running on a computer at one time. Hense why you can't be logged into a trial account and a subbed account at the same time....

So unless people are account sharing its easy to say that if two accounts are logged in under the same computer at the same time (or have been even one time in the past) then they are owned by the same person.
Defying
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-05-07 23:24:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Defying wrote:
So this is the easy part.. here we have a list of accounts, that could be one persons or could be multiples of people in the house hold. So things get a little tricky at this point, and the way my former company did it (with about 98% success rate)

5.) We took a chat log from a player for 15 days
…which means you're missing out on people who don't provide this metric (and people who have multiple IPs per household). Oh, and how is that “success rate” measured?

Quote:
Ohh and other things you can look for:

When accounts login
What accounts area already logged when that account logs in
Player trades and contracts
…because in a role-separated game, these will obviously create a difference between one player using two accounts, and two players using one each. Roll

Quote:
Do you need more answers?
Yup. Doesn't seem particularly reliable so far.
The reason for this assessment comes from looking at my household: three accounts over six MACs over three IPs, with rather wildly differing log-on times and no chatlogs… how many persons does that translate to?



Three accounts, means at most 3 people... I would have to have access to the EVE database to tell you any more then that. I am not saying I can do it right now, but I AM saying that the people at CCP are smart enough to have figured it out...

We did it with a little old 75 man team and an operating budget of only around 3m a year. If we could do it, CCP can most def do it :)
Haulie Berry
#56 - 2013-05-07 23:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Defying wrote:


4.) Separate database logs via mac addresses and you have the individual computers with in the household


Unless they're independently communicating MACs back from client machines (which seems unlikely, given Team Sec's presentation at FF stating they will ONLY be looking at the Eve client), a MAC address does not work this way. Unlike the originating IP, the originating MAC is not preserved between point A and point B, unless points A and B happen to be topologically adjacent/occupying the same subnet.

Even if they are independently communicating them back, a MAC is not a reliable identifier.
Defying
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2013-05-07 23:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Defying
Haulie Berry wrote:
Defying wrote:


4.) Separate database logs via mac addresses and you have the individual computers with in the household


Unless they're independently communicating MACs back from client machines (which seems unlikely, given Team Sec's presentation at FF stating they will ONLY be looking at the Eve client), a MAC address does not work this way. Unlike the originating IP, the originating MAC is not preserved between point A and point B, unless points A and B happen to be topologically adjacent/occupying the same subnet.

Even if they are independently communicating them back, a MAC is not a reliable identifier.



I highly doubt they are not logging the mac address of the adapter that is connected to the eve server.. this would be insane not to....



However, even if they are not.... then there are other ways to say which computer on a netowrk is feeding them data:

http://osr507doc.sco.com/en/NetAdminG/graphics/ipx_rip_struct.gif
Defying
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-05-07 23:33:07 UTC
Anyway,


Good luck guys, I am done defending technology that is already in place just so some people can feel like they are more under the radar then they really are.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#59 - 2013-05-07 23:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Defying wrote:
Please show me what an IP address scrambler is? I think you mean spoofer, and they will still cause the IP to translate to your host domain...

http://ipaddresshq.com/ip-scrambler-is-software-that-is-designed-to-hide-or-mask-your-computers-ip-address/

"When it does, IP Scrambler hides or masks your computers assigned IP Address and then issues it a false IP Address that can not be linked to your computer. That false IP Address contains the important information needed, by your computer, to interact with the Internet, but it does not contain the link back to your computer that hackers and malware need."

Defying wrote:
Its why if you get ip banned and you change your ip.. your still banned......

People on 4chan and /b/ are VERY adept at getting around IP bans. That's what lead me to the IP scrambler.

Defying wrote:
Proxies also still trace back to your IP addres... please look up "traceroute" and what it does......

There are mullings about the legality of traceroutes given that it allows people to access the information (however basic) of another's computer. To date, there has been no court case dealing with this (yet)... however most universities and colleges ban the practice and will expel you if you are found using it (on the grounds of "hacking").

How did you Veterans start?
Haulie Berry
#60 - 2013-05-07 23:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Defying wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Defying wrote:


4.) Separate database logs via mac addresses and you have the individual computers with in the household


Unless they're independently communicating MACs back from client machines (which seems unlikely, given Team Sec's presentation at FF stating they will ONLY be looking at the Eve client), a MAC address does not work this way. Unlike the originating IP, the originating MAC is not preserved between point A and point B, unless points A and B happen to be topologically adjacent/occupying the same subnet.

Even if they are independently communicating them back, a MAC is not a reliable identifier.



I highly doubt they are not logging the mac address of the adapter that is connected to the eve server.. this would be insane not to....



However, even if they are not.... then there are other ways to say which computer on a netowrk is feeding them data:

http://osr507doc.sco.com/en/NetAdminG/graphics/ipx_rip_struct.gif



...they would be insane not to log a piece of information that is completely meaningless to them? Really? Roll

Also, I'm pretty sure Eve doesn't use IPX; is this the baffle 'em with bullshit strategy?

There are some rock solid fingerprinting techniques, but they require collecting a lot more data than CCP needs to collect for any legitimate purpose. That said, the fact that you're referencing IPX packet structure instead of those techniques leads me to believe that your expertise is somewhat less than you are implying.


Quote:
Proxies also still trace back to your IP addres... please look up "traceroute" and what it does......


It sure as **** will not bust you out from behind a proxy. Proxies are not infallible, but I'm pretty sure I know who I'm talking to, now. Looking over some of your other "technical" commentary, I'm convinced that, if you were ever involved in the kind of project you claim to have been involved in, your actual job description began with, "Deliver coffee and donuts to the techs," and ended with, "Try not to spill anything."